Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[otto]

Mubarak's trial is beginning ... any thoughts on the way that court officials dress in Egypt? It seems similar to Italian court officials.

 

[Nova]

The pro-verdict/pro-jury people seem to be a little surprised that absolutely everyone associated with seeking justice for Meredith Kercher has been criticized for one thing or another. Never, in all the time I've been on this forum, have I ever seen anything like it.

Even sites that have nothing to do with this trial admit that Italy's justice system has its problems. It shouldn't surprise anyone that those of us who see a miscarriage of justice in this case should agree that the system is a mess.

Again, nobody criticized Maresca personally or accused him of dishonesty. Posters, including myself, went out of their ways to make that clear. We were talking about the inherent problem of combining criminal and civil trials.

(For the record, there are different problems in the U.S., where such trials are held separately.)

 

[otto]

If Maresca is "paid just like any lawyer," then he gets a percentage of the damages awarded in a civil suit. I appreciate the additional info on Italy's convoluted judicial system, but what you write seems to confirm precisely what Skewed View said in the first place. A civil judgment must coincide with the criminal verdict, so Maresca indeed needs convictions in order to get his cut. That's the system and not his fault, but it does tend to make him a member of the prosecution rather than an independent seeker of truth.

This is not to say I believe Maresca himself to be corrupt. I have no knowledge of him.

But surely you can see the problem with this system. That's what some of us were discussing.

I believe the Kerchers would happily forego 4 million pounds or 12 million pounds to have Meredith back. Nobody here said otherwise. (That doesn't mean they won't take whatever damages they can collect. Your quotes don't say that. I for one won't blame them: even though I think they are mistaken, I understand they believe the defendants killed their daughter/sister.)

The Kerchers did not choose this court case, it was thrust upon them.

I understand that the lawyer for Meredith Kercher is paid by the family at an hourly rate - the family has remarked on the cost to them to pursue justice for Meredith. Unless you can find something (that cite thing) stating that the lawyer is also receiving a percentage of the fine levied on the culprits, I think it's best not to jump to that conclusion.

 

[Nova]

No, the independent experts admitting that Meredith's full profile was on the knife means that you were totally wrong and still keep going on about how wrong everybody else was. But I guess I got that totally wrong?

Yes, you probably did, but I can't say for sure because I don't know what you are talking about. In what way was I "totally wrong"?

That knife is not the murder weapon and AK did not run around Perugia with it in her hand or in her purse.

 

[Nova]

I really don't understand why anyone would suggest that the lawyer for Meredith would be motivated by money. The belief is that the three culprits are guilty and that they will spend a good portion of their lives in prison. There is no expectation that any of the guilty parties will ever have the kind of money they have been ordered to pay. That assumption is, of course, based on the belief that murderers are not rewarded with celebrity status and million dollar deals upon release, but they are instead shunned and pushed to the sidelines of society for the remainder of their lives.

The family and their lawyer have no expectation of the money actually being paid, so to suggest that the lawyer's actions and statements in court are motivated by money makes no sense.

I don't see how you can know that, otto. As long as AK is seen as a lone American railroaded by a foreign court, somebody will have his checkbook open to pay her for interviews and/or a book. I'm sure it isn't their primary concern, but the Kerchers may yet see some money from those judgments.

 

[Nova]

I understand that the lawyer for Meredith Kercher is paid by the family at an hourly rate - the family has remarked on the cost to them to pursue justice for Meredith. Unless you can find something (that cite thing) stating that the lawyer is also receiving a percentage of the fine levied on the culprits, I think it's best not to jump to that conclusion.

Do you have a cite for that? I ask only because Skewed View is of the opposite opinion. I don't pretend to know.

But I do know you could have simply said you believed SV to be mistaken and saved us all several pages of posts.

 

[sherlockh]

Yes, you probably did, but I can't say for sure because I don't know what you are talking about. In what way was I "totally wrong"?

That knife is not the murder weapon and AK did not run around Perugia with it in her hand or in her purse.

If I remember correctly then I was supposed to believe that there was nothing on the knife. Repeated over and over again in this thread. From a very direct question by the all mighty Hellman himself if there was something of Meredith on the knife the answer was there is a full profile. You can still assume contamination of course, but to keep insisting there is nothing on that knife of Meredith is now off the table.

So I was saying (in reply to a post by Otto) that now probably the independents would be trashed as well since it looks like everyone that finds something pointing to the guilt of AK will be trashed eventually. Just opinions of course.

 

[Allusonz]

I agree. someone had said the postal police didn't participate or lead the investigation. I was just pointing out that they did participate by frying the computers. They also did the cell phone "evidence."

Totally agree wasnt_me not sure why I bounced off your post on that. All of your points are more than valid and then some maybe that is why

 

[Allusonz]

If I remember correctly then I was supposed to believe that there was nothing on the knife. Repeated over and over again in this thread. From a very direct question by the all mighty Hellman himself if there was something of Meredith on the knife the answer was there is a full profile. You can still assume contamination of course, but to keep insisting there is nothing on that knife of Meredith is now off the table.

So I was saying (in reply to a post by Otto) that now probably the independents would be trashed as well since it looks like everyone that finds something pointing to the guilt of AK will be trashed eventually. Just opinions of course.

The problem being a profile of what? Since Stephanoni did not use any method scientifically known how do you get a profile on something that tests negative for blood? What the experts worded very delicately is there is only 2 ways contamination or tampering

 

[Allusonz]

I understand that the lawyer for Meredith Kercher is paid by the family at an hourly rate - the family has remarked on the cost to them to pursue justice for Meredith. Unless you can find something (that cite thing) stating that the lawyer is also receiving a percentage of the fine levied on the culprits, I think it's best not to jump to that conclusion.

I as well wish a cite for this. He gets paid only if they remain guilty

 

[Allusonz]

I really don't understand why anyone would suggest that the lawyer for Meredith would be motivated by money. The belief is that the three culprits are guilty and that they will spend a good portion of their lives in prison. There is no expectation that any of the guilty parties will ever have the kind of money they have been ordered to pay. That assumption is, of course, based on the belief that murderers are not rewarded with celebrity status and million dollar deals upon release, but they are instead shunned and pushed to the sidelines of society for the remainder of their lives.

The family and their lawyer have no expectation of the money actually being paid, so to suggest that the lawyer's actions and statements in court are motivated by money makes no sense.

The prosecution is the victims advocate. The Kercher lawyer is there simply for the civil portion. That is not difficult to understand for most. What I found amazing throughout the first trial is one the judge allowed a civil trial to run concurrent to a criminal one and now on appeal it appears that the Kercher lawyer is doing the work of Mignini for him even though BY LAW he is not even suppose to be involved with this case

 

[Allusonz]

No, the independent experts admitting that Meredith's full profile was on the knife means that you were totally wrong and still keep going on about how wrong everybody else was. But I guess I got that totally wrong?

If you look at the trial transcripts they said it was "possible". Nice try though.

 

[Allusonz]

The pro-verdict/pro-jury people seem to be a little surprised that absolutely everyone associated with seeking justice for Meredith Kercher has been criticized for one thing or another. Never, in all the time I've been on this forum, have I ever seen anything like it.

Not everyone. Just key players.

Then you should look at the WM3 as one example. There have been many examples given in previous posts

 

[Allusonz]

Are the pro-guilties seriously complaining about criticism of PLE, even after the Court's own experts spent hours highlighting PLE's incompetence and perjury?

I can understand perhaps that you still believe the remaining evidence is sufficient to prove AK's and RS' guilt. But demanding that we pretend this investigation was anything but badly botched is absurd!

hmmmmmm it sure seems they are trying. What is perplexing to me are all these experts that are explaining worldwide on television what we are trying to state here yet we have it wrong. I believe it is ABC international that has an interesting one with B. Nadeau.

She has done a complete 180 I wonder why? It surely could not be that the report of the DNA experts have anything to do with it. In fact she even states the chances of reversal and that is only one person

 

[Allusonz]

So, we've seen everyone involved with the investigation criticized. The prosecutors have likewise been trashed. The jury has been considered no good because they were not sequestered. Judge Hellman is on the fast track to being seriously trashed - particularly if he doesn't close his eyes to anything refuting that contamination cannot be excluded. Now the lawyer for the victim is motivated by self-interests and money.

Is there anyone, anywhere associated with seeking justice for Meredith Kercher, that has not been trashed?

Actually, I have taken it further when it comes to Stephanoni, and others not including the ordinary PLE. I have gone so far as to state corruption

 

[Allusonz]

In what way am I misunderstanding the clear statements suggesting that the victim's lawyer is in it for the money? What makes anyone think that the lawyer representing Meredith and her family is going to get a portion of the money awarded to the victim's family members?

Posts here regarding Maresca (representative for the victim Meredith Kercher):

wasnt_me: "Isn't that the lawyers job? I didn't realize it was his job to be just one more prosecution attorney. I think that's unfair, and the court shouldn't even allow him to act in that capacity. Anything civil ought to be separate from the criminal, and settled after the criminal has been settled."

Skewed_View: "The problem is that the Kercher's lawyer stands to lose his share of two million euros if AK & RS are acquitted - remember the terms of the civil trial verdict - one million from each defendant found guilty in the criminal trial (after all appeals, this is the Italian System). It's standard for lawyers in such cases to take a hefty chunk of anything their clients get, so that's one heck of a powerful motivator for him to cheer lead the prosecution no matter what."

Nova: "No, what he pointed out is that the Kerchers' lawyer only collects large fees if the defendants are convicted. That means his vested interest is not in the truth, but in securing convictions, regardless of the guilt or innocence of those charged. This is an insane system. And not the fault of the Kerchers' lawyer personally. He may genuinely believe AK and RS are guilty, just as you do. But we will never know whether his ability to collect large fees influenced that belief; he may not even know himself."

Nova: "(lots of laughing icons) Apparently, you have never met a lawyer. Now I don't know this particular attorney; he may genuinely care about justice for the Kercher family. SV's point, however, was that the system is set up so that the lawyer has a vested interest in something other than the truth."

The only thing you are missing as most of these have pointed on in their own various ways is

Money

He only get's his share if they remain guilty thus he does have a vested interest in seeing them remain so. Do you seriously think the Kercher's could be paying him these legal fees on an hourly basis? Not only would most not, but most could not thus it is usually done on a percentage basis.

As I have stated before it is the prosecution that advocates for the victim in a criminal trial and that is not the Kercher lawyer that is Mignini and Commodi in the first trial

 

[Allusonz]

I really do not know what is up with him. I don't understand why he is leading the Kercher's down the prosecution path. I can get it before all this came out, but once it's plain as the nose on your face that this evidence is tainted, he should be advising the Kerchers of the possibility that AK and RS are innocent and RG acted alone, rather than keeping them on this path with the prosecution. Because the ones who will be hurt by an accquital will be the Kerchers if they haven't been properly prepared for the possibility that maybe AK and RS didn't really do it.

Isn't that the lawyers job? I didn't realize it was his job to be just one more prosecution attorney. I think that's unfair, and the court shouldn't even allow him to act in that capacity. Anything civil ought to be separate from the criminal, and settled after the criminal has been settled.

I have to agree wasnt-me...he is leading them a garden path and reminds me much of ambulance chasers that could care less about the victim just the pay day at the end. How sad

 

[Allusonz]

Otto, stop insinuating that I don't care about the rights of the victim and her survivors - it's insulting, hurtful, childish behavior...FYI, I've been in their shoes - it was my fiance, whom I had been with since the first grade, not my child, and the murder weapon was a vehicle, but the situation is very similar otherwise...so believe me when I say that my heart breaks for them...and stop with this passive aggressive BS...

Alright, I'm going to go to work and cool off...

Thank you SV!!!

 

[Allusonz]

BBM: Please stop misstating what other posters have written. It's the same as lying and we all know how you feel about that.

Thank you Nova !!

 

[Nova]

If I remember correctly then I was supposed to believe that there was nothing on the knife. Repeated over and over again in this thread. From a very direct question by the all mighty Hellman himself if there was something of Meredith on the knife the answer was there is a full profile. You can still assume contamination of course, but to keep insisting there is nothing on that knife of Meredith is now off the table.

So I was saying (in reply to a post by Otto) that now probably the independents would be trashed as well since it looks like everyone that finds something pointing to the guilt of AK will be trashed eventually. Just opinions of course.

Well, then, no problem here. If MK's DNA is on that knife, it is because of contamination. That knife was not used in the murder.

I have no problem withe independent experts.