Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[dgfred]

IMO Italy has a sort of pyramid of evidence to convict. Each piece of evidence (in this case mind you) has a weight given to it's relevance.
So it seems more of a totality of evidence.

 

[SMK]

IMO Italy has a sort of pyramid of evidence to convict. Each piece of evidence (in this case mind you) has a weight given to it's relevance.
So it seems more of a totality of evidence.

:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

 

[dgfred]

For instance in the US- If the knife was presented as the murder weapon, but it was thrown out for some reason... the accused is acquitted or not found guilty as it were in almost every instance.

In Italy- the knife may be thrown out... but the preponderance of other evidence might not lead to acquitted, and with the rest of the evidence (and it's weight) presented might still lead to the accused being found guilty.

At least that is my take... please don't razz me for it.

 

[SMK]

For instance in the US- If the knife was presented as the murder weapon, but it was thrown out for some reason... the accused is acquitted or not found guilty as it were in almost every instance.

In Italy- the knife may be thrown out... but the preponderance of other evidence might not lead to acquitted, and with the rest of the evidence (and it's weight) presented might still lead to the accused being found guilty.

At least that is my take... please don't razz me for it.

Fred, make a stupid request, get a stupid response......... :razz:
(just kidding, but Italy seems a bit off-kilter in the evidentiary sphere, then)

 

[SkewedView]

For instance in the US- If the knife was presented as the murder weapon, but it was thrown out for some reason... the accused is acquitted or not found guilty as it were in almost every instance.

In Italy- the knife may be thrown out... but the preponderance of other evidence might not lead to acquitted, and with the rest of the evidence (and it's weight) presented might still lead to the accused being found guilty.

At least that is my take... please don't razz me for it.

Um, your first statement is totally contrary to reality. The US courts weight evidence and often convict on a preponderance of evidence, rather than on one piece of evidence.

I really don't know where these ridiculous ideas about the American Justice system are coming from (not targeting you with this bit fred, but posters in general), but if they have something to do with that stupid Anthony trial, please ignore it, as Florida is a nation unto itself when it comes to the laws and courts. Is the US system flawed? Yes. But no more so than European systems.

All that aside, preponderance of evidence and weighting of evidence are two of the most important of many factors that lead up to deciding on the presence or lack of reasonable doubt, not something that you replace it with.

 

[SkewedView]

And this site shows the threshold for the burden of proof to be HIGHER in Italy::razz:

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art315.htm



and this is not so good for Italy:

This bit:

It is doubtful that an American or British judge would have summarily permitted such searches based on such a flimsy pretext.

I find to be extremely naive - American Judges routinely rubber stamp SWAT raids on just as flimsy of pretexts, as long as the words 'drugs', 'terrorist' or 'child ' are involved. I won't get into the statistics of this here, as it is OT, but there is an alarming trend of overuse of paramilitary police forces in all western nations that shows every sign of getting worse with time, and innocents are paying the price.

 

[SMK]

This bit:



I find to be extremely naive - American Judges routinely rubber stamp SWAT raids on just as flimsy of pretexts, as long as the words 'drugs', 'terrorist' or 'child ' are involved. I won't get into the statistics of this here, as it is OT, but there is an alarming trend of overuse of paramilitary police forces in all western nations that shows every sign of getting worse with time, and innocents are paying the price.

it seemed to not ring true for me as well.....

 

[dgfred]

Skewed, I don't agree with your post.
Could you show some instances where an item is named as a murder weapon in the US- thrown out- then the defendant is found guilty anyway?

 

[dgfred]

Maybe when a preponderance of circumstancial evidence is found in the US a person may be convicted, but IMO not after the prosection names a murder weapon and it is thrown out.
In your example DA says 'this gun was used as the murder weapon' - the gun is later thrown out - and the person is still found guilty. I don't see that happening here.

In Italy, for example in this case. The prosecution names the knife as the murder weapon, but it is maybe thrown out at some point- it will not mean the case is over in acquital. It might be that AK's sentence is reduced for not 'transporting' the knife... but that is yet to be seen, it may lead to other evidence being denied, it may eventually lead to acquital. But that is not the same type of system IMO.

 

[dgfred]

Skewed, I don't agree with your post.

Could you show some instances where an item is named as a murder weapon in the US- thrown out- then the defendant is found guilty anyway?

Darn, I eagerly await your response upon your return.

Especially after seeing: contrary to reality, ridiculous, naive, innocents paying the price, etc in your last couple of post.

 

[Murdock]

Skewed, I don't agree with your post.
Could you show some instances where an item is named as a murder weapon in the US- thrown out- then the defendant is found guilty anyway?

Do you mean like this?



In his fanny pack was the 9mm used in the shooting, matched conclusively by ballistics analysis.

But from the depths of Attica Correctional Facility, Breazil read about Florida v. J.L., a 2000 U.S. Supreme Court case holding unconstitutional any search conducted solely as a result of an anonymous 911 tip.

That earned him a new trial - minus the murder weapon.


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/item_1oM9NVmltRUYIcGFoIqDTK#ixzz1U64KgbKQ

 

[dgfred]

No, I mean after the trial has started a person is still found guilty after the evidence (murder weapon) is thrown out. Not found guilty in a new trial.

Still very interesting case tho, thanks for the link.

 

[Steft50]

Fred, make a stupid request, get a stupid response......... :razz:
(just kidding, but Italy seems a bit off-kilter in the evidentiary sphere, then)

BBM

Which could explain, in part at least, the 50% overturn rate on convictions in Italy during the appeal process.

 

[Murdock]

No, I mean after the trial has started a person is still found guilty after the evidence (murder weapon) is thrown out. Not found guilty in a new trial.

Still very interesting case tho, thanks for the link.

Oh. I wasn't sure exactly what you meant. After reading your post, I was curious myself so I did a search. That was all I found, but I didn't read all the links that came up. Now I'll add this smilie, just because I like it. :great:

 

[wasnt_me]

I know. I was trying to think of a polite way to work in the misinformation. I was just amazed at whenever I clicked a button to try and exit, more and more photos and text popped up.

Ain't no polite way. Just do it! :twocents:

 

[SMK]

Ain't no polite way. Just do it! :twocents:

Someone should have told me that about 30 years ago.......

 

[wasnt_me]

BBM: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :great:

Apparently, you have never met a lawyer.

Now I don't know this particular attorney; he may genuinely care about justice for the Kercher family. SV's point, however, was that the system is set up so that the lawyer has a vested interest in something other than the truth.

I thought the prosecution represented the victim?

 

[wasnt_me]

the early articles incorrectly said it was Meredith's window that was broken (instead of FR's window)

I can't remember exactly... but I think it's one of the arguments written in RS's appeal - pointing out Rudy implicated himself by referring to FR's window when the press had (at that point) only referred to Meredith's window.

Something happened to MK's window, though, at some point AFTER the crime, because there's tape across it in the investigative photos from December 18th. It's the same tape use at the front door to keep the sign on it.

 

[wasnt_me]

And from those posts, which discuss a systemic problem in which a lawyer is paid based on convictions rather than the revelation of the truth, posts in which each of us went out of his way to caution that we weren't impugning the ethics of the individual attorney, you concluded the following:



I think that's what you like to call a "whopper lie." None of us criticized or even mentioned the motives of the Kerchers. We didn't even say their lawyer was a bad guy. SV merely stated the obvious, that if the victim's attorney gets paid upon conviction, then that attorney becomes a de facto member of the prosecution, not a seeker of the truth.

But since you use the word "employ," I assume you are now conceding that perhaps the Kerchers pay Maresca in some manner. In some posts you seemed to take offense at the notion that Maresca might get paid for doing his job.

OMG, I did not say one word about money in my post and there Otto goes saying my statement was part of the "clear" statements that "we" think the lawyers are money grubbers. I don't understand why anyone bothers directly rebutting lies.

 

[wasnt_me]

No, the independent experts admitting that Meredith's full profile was on the knife means that you were totally wrong and still keep going on about how wrong everybody else was. But I guess I got that totally wrong?

yeah, you did.