Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

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  • #701
okay, thought about it some more while smoking.

In my opinon, the first question that should have popped into their minds if they murdered MK is this: OMG, how are we going to get out of this? Or maybe: OMG how are we going to explain how this happened? Or even: OMG, how are going to cover our own butts?

Then, the logical answer apparently was: stage a breakin.

So I think, just my opinion, that the staging had to be the first order of business, or any clean up would have happened in tandum with the staging. The staging is not an after thought. It can't be. It's the thing to keep them out of prison. I don't know what could be more important to a criminal than figuring out how not to get caught.

Anyways, those who disagree with that are free to disagree. The truth of the matter is there is NO PROOF of an elaborate cleanup and there is NO PROOF of a staged breakin, no matter what window was chosen by RG.
 
  • #702
The whole purpose of luminol is to show cleaned up prints. If you 'have to' leave swiping patterns then you would always get messed up prints and then what is the point of the luminol in the first place? There is no 'rule' on any swiping patterns. Me thinks that was just your opinion where you imply that the investigators simply overlooked this 'rule'. Too much of a stretch IMO.

Luminol is used to detect traces of blood that have been cleaned up. Getting a print from those traces, from what I've read, is not the primary purpose and it seems as if prints are less common. Here is the website for a Luminol-based reagent, listing 9 cases where it was used to detect hidden traces of blood that were later identified as belonging to the victim. None of the cases listed revealed prints.

http://www.bluestar-forensic.com/gb/bluestar-cases.php
 
  • #703
Good point.

I also find it a bit odd that in the staged break in scenario they actually left the rock in FR's room... I'm not entirely sure why I find that odd... but I just fell like I would have been so paranoid in that situation that I'd want to get rid of it in case it could implicate me...

The placement of the rock in FR's room has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me. It's not odd that it was left in the room, but rather, that if someone were staging a rock being thrown from outside that they wouldn't place it strategically on the floor several feet in front of the window. Instead it was inside a ripped bag just under the window, something that no one would ever think to do. For them to pick up the pieces of glass and place them where they thought they would land, but then place the rock in the bag or just leave it there if that's where it fell seems very counter-intuitive to a staging IMO. There's something about that rock in the ripped bag that just screams "real" to me.
 
  • #704
The whole purpose of luminol is to show cleaned up prints. If you 'have to' leave swiping patterns then you would always get messed up prints and then what is the point of the luminol in the first place? There is no 'rule' on any swiping patterns. Me thinks that was just your opinion where you imply that the investigators simply overlooked this 'rule'. Too much of a stretch IMO.

With all due respect, the purpose of luminol has nothing to do with prints. They use a powder to dust for prints.

The purpose is generally to show the presence of blood (but unfortunately a number of other substances react as well). I suppose luminol might reveal a print left in blood too diluted to see with the naked eye, but that isn't the norm.

Hendry and other experts have talked about the smears that remain when someone has tried to clean up blood. Blood obeys the laws of physics as well as chemistry.
 
  • #705
With all due respect, the purpose of luminol has nothing to do with prints. They use a powder to dust for prints.

The purpose is generally to show the presence of blood (but unfortunately a number of other substances react as well). I suppose luminol might reveal a print left in blood too diluted to see with the naked eye, but that isn't the norm.

Hendry and other experts have talked about the smears that remain when someone has tried to clean up blood. Blood obeys the laws of physics as well as chemistry.
Ok, the prime purpose is to detect blood but it can certainly be used to identify foot and fingerprints. Why you say it has nothing to do with it is beyond me? It is rather obvious that they used luminol to find footprints here. Same with other cases (Michael Peterson comes to mind). Nothing unusual about it.

ETA: Michael Peterson is probably a bad example since they didn't even photograph those prints. Speaking of sloppy police investigations ;)
 
  • #706
Yup, the whole morning story. She said she didn't notice the broken window. This would have been impossible with a break-in through the balcony or kitchen.
Is it likely though that she would have thought of this when choosing that window? I guess I believe that it was either Guede staging or Guede actually entering....thank you for your input, though....from your perspective, I can see why it would make sense...
 
  • #707
The placement of the rock in FR's room has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me. It's not odd that it was left in the room, but rather, that if someone were staging a rock being thrown from outside that they wouldn't place it strategically on the floor several feet in front of the window. Instead it was inside a ripped bag just under the window, something that no one would ever think to do. For them to pick up the pieces of glass and place them where they thought they would land, but then place the rock in the bag or just leave it there if that's where it fell seems very counter-intuitive to a staging IMO. There's something about that rock in the ripped bag that just screams "real" to me.
Excellent point. And this could be extended to many other things , such as things Amanda said, which resonate as real and authentic....I am a person who would love to be convinced that Knox and Sollecito were guilty, so I could stop caring. But as you say, when certain things "scream real", it seems impossible....
 
  • #708
okay, thought about it some more while smoking.

In my opinon, the first question that should have popped into their minds if they murdered MK is this: OMG, how are we going to get out of this? Or maybe: OMG how are we going to explain how this happened? Or even: OMG, how are going to cover our own butts?

Then, the logical answer apparently was: stage a breakin.

So I think, just my opinion, that the staging had to be the first order of business, or any clean up would have happened in tandum with the staging. The staging is not an after thought. It can't be. It's the thing to keep them out of prison. I don't know what could be more important to a criminal than figuring out how not to get caught.

Anyways, those who disagree with that are free to disagree. The truth of the matter is there is NO PROOF of an elaborate cleanup and there is NO PROOF of a staged breakin, no matter what window was chosen by RG.
Smoking is conducive to good thinking....:great:
 
  • #709
Ok, the prime purpose is to detect blood but it can certainly be used to identify foot and fingerprints. Why you say it has nothing to do with it is beyond me? It is rather obvious that they used luminol to find footprints here. Same with other cases (Michael Peterson comes to mind). Nothing unusual about it.

ETA: Michael Peterson is probably a bad example since they didn't even photograph those prints. Speaking of sloppy police investigations ;)
If Amanda did not live at the cottage, signs of her being there would link her clearly to the murder. But I have never understood how they could tell if her footprints had not simply been there from the recent days prior to the murder? Really bothersome to me.

If someone came into my place, and found my bare footprints, they may have come from last night or last week or last month....If she stepped on the mat and there was blood there, this could account for it being found with her print later....unless i have it all wrong...:waitasec:..............:razz:
 
  • #710
Mayhap this would have been a good idea:waitasec:

Our State Department needs new regulations pertaining to US sanctioned student exchange programs. No student should be allowed to sign into a police station without immediate US embassy notification by the police station’s reception officer.

If a student needs assistance, everyone should be in the loop! If a student desires to give information to help local authorities, everyone should be in the loop! There is no reason another American student should ever be allowed to be locked in a room in a foreign police station, alone, defenseless, with no emotional support, no legal council, no mercy!
http://www.groundreport.com/World/AMANDA-KNOX-CONSPIRACY-THEORY/2940834
 
  • #711
Ok, the prime purpose is to detect blood but it can certainly be used to identify foot and fingerprints. Why you say it has nothing to do with it is beyond me? It is rather obvious that they used luminol to find footprints here. Same with other cases (Michael Peterson comes to mind). Nothing unusual about it.

ETA: Michael Peterson is probably a bad example since they didn't even photograph those prints. Speaking of sloppy police investigations ;)

It can be used to do that, but typically if a footprint CAN be visualized you don't need the luminol (because you can see it with your eyes), if it can't be visualized then it usually means someone cleaned it up, so the luminol reveals a blotchy, mushy cleaned-up spot (of a bloody footprint that was attempted to be removed). It is the rarest of all to see clear foot-prints, made from a tiny residue of blood, in perfect sillhouete. That's indicative of a footprint made in diluted blood, and then not cleaned up afterward. Not cleaned up because no one saw it.
 
  • #712
It can be used to do that, but typically if a footprint CAN be visualized you don't need the luminol (because you can see it with your eyes), if it can't be visualized then it usually means someone cleaned it up, so the luminol reveals a blotchy, mushy cleaned-up spot (of a bloody footprint that was attempted to be removed). It is the rarest of all to see clear foot-prints, made from a tiny residue of blood, in perfect sillhouete. That's indicative of a footprint made in diluted blood, and then not cleaned up afterward. Not cleaned up because no one saw it.
I think we basically all say the same. That luminol can detect footprints but it is by itself not conclusive. IMO the judges do not just consider it as conclusive but they do come to an conclusion after putting the footprints into context. I find especially the bathmat footprint (and the compatibility with one in the hallway) in that context rather telling.

As said before, I do find the diluted scenario plausible (that could even mean no cleaning in the hallway) and then I would not have had any explanation for the missing steps from the bathroom to the ones found in front of MK's door and in AK's room if AK herself had not given the solution for that one herself. Bathmat surfing! Brilliant ;)
 
  • #713
I think we basically all say the same. That luminol can detect footprints but it is by itself not conclusive. IMO the judges do not just consider it as conclusive but they do come to an conclusion after putting the footprints into context. I find especially the bathmat footprint (and the compatibility with one in the hallway) in that context rather telling.

As said before, I do find the diluted scenario plausible (that could even mean no cleaning in the hallway) and then I would not have had any explanation for the missing steps from the bathroom to the ones found in front of MK's door and in AK's room if AK herself had not given the solution for that one herself. Bathmat surfing! Brilliant ;)
I know wasnt_me and others discussed this a lot, but could you give me a brief sentence on how that bathmat surfing went, according to Knox? Was it that she slid on it, or used it as a bath towel? :waitasec:

Sorry, not clear on it....

This is all I could find, posted by wasnt_me, on thread #14:

I don't know if it was lost in translation, but my understanding is that she said there were no towels in the bathroom after her shower. So she used the bathmat like a towel to shield her naked body on her way to her room. It's my understanding that she did this because she'd left the cottage door either open or unlocked, so whomever she thought was home, but just outside, could get back into the house.

As I've stated, I think that when she returned the mat to its spot, she put it down backward, so that the footprint appeared to be entering the room, instead of exiting the shower. That's just what I think, of course no proof.
 
  • #714
@ Fred: I believe you had posted the statement analysis of Knox which appeared on TJMK and I had discussed that with you further. Have been doing more reading and reflecting, so wanted to add to our discussion now:

Lately, I have been continuing my reading of Andrew G Hodges on the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and his thesis that "thought prints" were left in the ransom note, indicating that the mother was confessing to the crime.

Now, I see Peter Hyatt has also used the "forensic thought print method" which has been mastered and advocated by Hodges on his further musings on Knox.

I am only posting this because the method - which you and people on other forums find significant - may be tested here. Either it is right or wrong. If right, then I would need to discount much that logic tells me. If wrong, then I would have to question the method itself, which has been proven accurate in other cases.

Says Hyatt:

Amanda Knox was part of a sexual homicide. This comes from her own words, and is not changed if prosecutors are corrupt or honorable, nor if evidence was dropped or mishandled. Amanda Knox, herself, has told us that she was part of a sexual homicide, was present, and that she knows hard evidence thus proves it.

Question:

Could drug use, stimulating the right brain , and hence the sphere where deception is likely to be formulated, mimic the deception process, throwing the analyst off? Something to think about in Hyatt's analysis, and in the one posted on the TJMK site as well.........:waitasec:

Hyat finds simple statements to be weighty and decisive: If a suspect uses sexual homicide referencing in their language, as proposed by FBI forensic psychologists, then it is open and shut, with no margin for error:

It is significant that she tells us that Raffaele "cleaned" her. While speaking, even when attempting to be deceptive, what is in the heart slips out and she may have been thinking of washing off blood when she gave this statement.

Those that wish to excuse her due to police misconduct, or mishandling of evidence must do so by ignoring not only the fact that she lied, but that she employed the language of a sexual homicide in doing so.

"I dropped off (the hitchhiker), stopped to get gas and wash up. After that, I drove down I-95 until..."

This was a statement where a hitchhiker was murdered. The timeframe where he washed up showed the time of death.
But because it was true in the hitch hiker homicide, is the language indicating the same when employed by Knox? Was she writing in Italian, losing something in the translation?

Further, didn't Freud employ these same rigid standards to human speech, and to the language of dreams, only to be debunked and rebuked in the next century? Something to ponder, when dealing with human lives..........:waitasec:

And if we look at what some skeptics have argued, we may not want to be so decisive re the statements of suspects: This scholar begins by revealing how adamant the creators and users of this analytical and forensic tool are about its precision:

Statement analysis (aka content analysis) analyzes the content of statements to detect whether information provided by a suspect is truthful or intentionally incomplete. Supposedly, there are linguistic cues a person gives that can reveal concealed, missing, or false information. Those who defend this technique of interrogation believe that they have a reliable method to detect deception in ways that go beyond the obvious technique of making logical inferences from what is stated and identifying implausible claims based on general or specific knowledge. Anyone can detect a lie, for example, when a suspect is caught in a contradiction or makes statements that are inconsistent with one another.

To someone with substantial background knowledge relevant to the issue being investigated, it is often obvious when a person making a statement has omitted important information. In any case, those like Avinoam Sapir, who developed what he calls Scientific Content Analysis (SCAN), think they've discovered something that goes beyond mere logical and common sense analysis of people's statements.....There is very little scientific research into statement analysis. One of the more vocal proponents of it is FBI special agent Susan H. Adams. Adams believes that statement analysis will allow an investigator to

gain insight into a suspect prior to conducting an interview. By learning more about a suspect and determining whether that person is being deceptive, they have a much better chance of identifying the guilty party and gaining a confession.

The purpose of statement analysis, according to Adams, is to gain a confession.

The skeptic goes on to argue the marketing of such analysis, and the potential for dubious outcomes , and the need for extensive research before accepting this as a forensic tool. I think his cautious approach is reasonable:
Apparently the only thing scientific about Scientific Interrogation and Scientific Content Analysis is in the names. That could change, but until the Undeutsch Hypothesis becomes the Undeutsch Law, I'll remain skeptical. Until there are large-scale double-blinded studies that validate some of the claims made for the power, accuracy, and utility of statement analysis, law enforcement should approach this technique with caution.
http://www.skepdic.com/statementanalysis.html
 
  • #715
I know wasnt_me and others discussed this a lot, but could you give me a brief sentence on how that bathmat surfing went, according to Knox? Was it that she slid on it, or used it as a bath towel? :waitasec:

Sorry, not clear on it....

This is all I could find, posted by wasnt_me, on thread #14:
First time she mentioned it was on December 17th 2007 in an interview with Mignini.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=83128

Interpreter; When she went into the bedroom to have a shower she forgot the towel. And so there was also, what do you call it in Italian?

Mignini; The bathmat.

Interpreter; …the bathmat that she used to go back…walk to the bedroom to get a towel.

Mignini; Sorry I don’t understand. You took the bathmat to walk, to go to the bedroom?

Interpreter; So she didn’t slip with bare feet.

Mignini; When did you notice the blood?

Knox; I saw the blood when I went into the bathroom.

Interpreter; In the washbasin when she took her earrings out. After the shower she realised she didn’t have a towel and she used the bathmat.

Then later (june 13 2009) during her trial testimony her story changed a bit (what also had changed in the mean time is that the luminol prints had been found). Now she actually stepped off the bathmat. Also note that GB is Bongiorno, RS's lawyer. So with a little help from a 'friend' she is now trying to give an innocent explanation here for the luminol footprints. Tricky!

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

GB: When you, on the morning of the finding of the body, when before that you went to take a shower, you said: "I got out of the shower and didn't have any shoes, so I jumped on the bathmat."

AK: Yes.

GB: This bathmat that we're talking about is the bathmat that you saw projected here in court in a video?

AK: Yes.

GB: Do you remember how you slid with the bathmat? When you took it from the bathroom to your room, did you have both bare feet on it or just one foot.

AK: Sometimes I...heh heh...by mistake, I put my foot on the floor like this,
but I tried -- I slid along trying to kind of make little jumps with the
bathmat, but I didn't quite succeed.

This post explains it much better than I can: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=52675#p52675
 
  • #716
First time she mentioned it was on December 17th 2007 in an interview with Mignini.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=83128



Then later (june 13 2009) during her trial testimony her story changed a bit (what also had changed in the mean time is that the luminol prints had been found). Now she actually stepped off the bathmat. Also note that GB is Bongiorno, RS's lawyer. So with a little help from a 'friend' she is now trying to give an innocent explanation here for the luminol footprints. Tricky!

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165



This post explains it much better than I can: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=52675#p52675

I've asked this a million times and never gotten a clear response: How does Amanda's story of using the bathmat to walk to her room "explain the luminol prints"? Sherlock, could you please explain your reasoning? It's bothersome that this gets repeated ad nauseam without any explanation.

Secondly, her story didn't change. Both stories she says she didn't have a towel and used the bathmat to walk on from the bathroom to her room. Where is the difference?

ETA: Reading the link from PMF which you say explains this...
 
  • #717
First time she mentioned it was on December 17th 2007 in an interview with Mignini.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=83128



Then later (june 13 2009) during her trial testimony her story changed a bit (what also had changed in the mean time is that the luminol prints had been found). Now she actually stepped off the bathmat. Also note that GB is Bongiorno, RS's lawyer. So with a little help from a 'friend' she is now trying to give an innocent explanation here for the luminol footprints. Tricky!

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165



This post explains it much better than I can: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=52675#p52675
Yes, her sliding story could be an attempt to deceive, or it could be part of her notorious quirky nature ....hard to determine....Thanks for posting those quotes.....and the PMF link:
It takes 6 weeks for Knox to bring up the bathmat shuffle to the complete surprise of Mignini on December 17th;
So they are implying this is an added fabrication to explain the LACK of her prints?? as opposed to a clean up situation?:waitasec:
 
  • #718
ETA: Reading the link from PMF which you say explains this...

There's a couple problems with this theory. The first and foremost problem, as I've pointed out is that using the bathmat itself to shuffle across the floor does not leave, nor clean up bloody footprints, and is therefore no explanation for the Luminol-revealed prints. Second problem is that Amanda writing in her email to friends and family two days after Meredith was murdered that she stepped on the bloody bathmat. This is before she had a lawyer, before the forensics results were available, before the words Luminol ever came into play. For her to write home before she was ever a suspect, and somehow have the foresight to know that somewhere down the road a product called Luminol would reveal her footprints is more of the "Amanda the criminal mastermind" that just doesn't make sense to me.
 
  • #719
Yes, her sliding story could be an attempt to deceive, or it could be part of her notorious quirky nature ....hard to determine....Thanks for posting those quotes.....

Sorry, I just don't see how the bathmat story can be used as any sort of deception. Following the logic of this deception we get:

Amanda steps in Meredith's blood after killing her. She then wipes the blood up before police arrive. Then, after the Luminol reveals said footprints she tries to "explain" their presence by saying she slid across the hallway with the bloody bathmat. If anything, sliding on the bathmat would explain the absence of bloody footprints, not the creations of ones. Regardless, if someone is going to argue that the bathmat is an excuse for the bloody footprints, the shuffle is completely unnecessary. Her stepping on the bloody mat as she says she did in her email home before she was ever a suspect is enough of an "excuse", but as I said that requires the "Amanda the criminal mastermind" argument.

ETA: Also, as pointed out a million times before, the prints in the hallway being blood must ignore the fact they they tested negative for blood, that they mysteriously don't start in the room where the murder took place, and that they are in a pattern walking from the bathroom to her bedroom, not from the murder room to the bathroom.
 
  • #720
There's a couple problems with this theory. The first and foremost problem, as I've pointed out is that using the bathmat itself to shuffle across the floor does not leave, nor clean up bloody footprints, and is therefore no explanation for the Luminol-revealed prints. Second problem is that Amanda writing in her email to friends and family two days after Meredith was murdered that she stepped on the bloody bathmat. This is before she had a lawyer, before the forensics results were available, before the words Luminol ever came into play. For her to write home before she was ever a suspect, and somehow have the foresight to know that somewhere down the road a product called Luminol would reveal her footprints is more of the "Amanda the criminal mastermind" that just doesn't make sense to me.

I had added this to my post above:
Yes, her sliding story could be an attempt to deceive, or it could be part of her notorious quirky nature ....hard to determine....Thanks for posting those quotes.....and the PMF link:
It takes 6 weeks for Knox to bring up the bathmat shuffle to the complete surprise of Mignini on December 17th;

So they are implying this is an added fabrication to explain the LACK of her prints?? as opposed to a clean up situation?

I see what point is being driven home, but I agree with you, it is VERY deceptive. In a person such as Casey Anthony, who was known to family and friends as being a practiced liar and deceiver, weaving hundreds of falsehood together as a matter of course, it might be more believable...

ETA: I have now re-read your logic, and your own ETA, so have it better in my mind, and agree...
 
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