Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[Allusonz]

Here is another article with patrick quotes...

Then, at dawn the next day - and with Knox by now in custody - Patrick was arrested by armed cops. "One officer elbowed me hard in the ribs. Another said he wished we were in America because then I'd get the electric chair.

"They said Amanda had told them I'd raped and stabbed Meredith to death while she was in another room.

"I was furious and felt sick with anger. I told them it was insane. They said if I confessed I'd only serve 15 years in prison, not 30." www.mirror.co.uk​

(Patrick's attorney) in closing, Carlo Pacelli spread the same hate-filled message as Patrick in the dailymail article:

..said Knox had murdered then incriminated his client because she was a lying, diabolical "double soul" capable of being both saintly and satanic at the same time.

"Is Amanda Knox the angelic [person] we see here?" said Mr Pacelli, turning to point fiercely at Knox. "Or is she a diabolical she-devil, an explosive concentrate of sex, drugs and alcohol? She is both. But the latter is the Amanda we saw on November 1, 2007."

snip
Mr Pacelli repeatedly described what he called Knox's poor hygiene habits – the fact that she sometimes did not flush the toilet, and that she brought home lovers and kept condoms and a vibrator in a transparent beauty case in the bathroom.

"Amanda Knox was unclean on the outside because she was dirty on the inside," he said. independent.co.uk​

Pacelli .. so dramatic

PL also has a 500k claim filed with the ECHR. It seems they as well have lost the audio/video of his interrogation. I am shocked :giggle:

 

[SMK]

Thanks for clarifying, and this argument makes more sense to me.

At trial women did report being harassed by him, and some said he stole things from their handbag. On Sept 27, 2007 a bartender from Merlin's stated that Guede threatened him with a knife. So there is testimony of a history of aggression. I agree with you that if I had been an officer I would not have assumed he was headed so quickly for murder, but I would have thought he was on a downward spiral.

It is my opinion though that the story does support Rudy becoming a murderer.

:clap::clap: Right, and especially if he thought he was entering an empty house, where all the students were out or away, and then happened upon an angry and frightened Meredith. OR, if he foolishly thought to catch Meredith alone, and seduce her, only to have her become irate or terrified. Things can escalate quickly, for an aggressive, knife wielding, seductive, burglar....

 

[Allusonz]

*Snipped*. Don't be ridiculous. Pointing out to what the facts are and what the rumors are has nothing to do with any downplaying. The attempts to make RG look like a serial killer go all the way back to when the defense still was trying their lone wolf scenario. That is the only reason why all these rumors have popped up. Most of them originate from the defense themselves.

The truth is that if you look at the facts then you see nothing where you could foresee that any of these 3 would become murders. I don't read much into the rock throwing party of AK, or manga collection of RS either. And indeed I don't see any aggressive rapist murder in RG just because he stole some stuff. He even returned some of the stolen stuff. Where is the aggression?

IMO none of these 3 would ever by themselves murder anyone. This is where the group dynamic comes into play which is a very interesting discussion but obviously would not interest many posters here.

In order for this dynamic to occur you must be able to place the 3 together. Even RG sticks to a timeline IIRC of 9:20 - 9:30 for her being killed.

When RS friend stopped by she stated in her testimony that AK acted normal this was at 8:40. We know the court in the first trial recognizes computer activity till 9:10. There are significant language barriers. The list for this time period is long a varied and simply does not support the dynamic you are attempting. As well even Dr. Lalli's estimate of TOD along with the other experts would not take it out of this 9:00 - 9:30 range without slippage into the duodenum.

 

[Allusonz]

The reviews of Burleigh's book online all say "Nonfiction Review". Here is another excerpt from another review:

http://crownpublishing.com/2011/08/01/press-release-the-fatal-gift-of-beauty-by-nina-burleigh/

Sadly SMK I am sure that some will attempt to discredit her as well. At least she will join an elite group

 

[SMK]

@ Sherlock :

"Mrs. Madu Diaz never got to see the woman's gold watch in Rudy's backpack, to see if she could identify it as her mother's, [stolen from her house.]

Burleigh.

So there goes the idea that you said, that I had stupidly not considered that the watch was not her mother's. ALSO: Guede had taken out pots and pans and cooked pasta and spinach at the nursery school in Milan - in Mrs. Diaz' Perugain cottage, the thief had also cooked food.

 

[Allusonz]

I have to go out of town for a couple of days on Monday. So I probably won't try it until I get back.

I'm very reluctant. I LOVE books. Real books. I gave away 2,500 when we moved from L.A. and I still have full bookshelves in every room.

I think I'm superstitious: I'm afraid if I give into Kindle or its PC cousin, all the books in the world will suddenly disappear.

Hope you enjoy your trip Nova!!! Will miss you while you are gone!!

 

[Allusonz]

BTW, I watched a Dateline last night about Ryan Ferguson, an all-American boy who was falsely accused of murdering a newspaper editor in Columbia, MO, in 2001.

The friend who accused him has recanted; the eyewitness who identified Ryan has recanted. Both claim their testimonies were coerced by LE. The account of attempted coercion is backed up by other witnesses who refused to cooperate and say what LE wanted them to say.

There is no forensic evidence implicating Ryan and all the forensic evidence at the scene (fingerprints, bloody footprints, etc.) points to others.

The only evidence against Ryan is a dream his friend had two years after the murder; in the dream, the friend said he saw himself and Ryan robbing and killing the editor to get drink money and then returning to the club where they were partying. The problem with that story is that the club closed at 1:30 a.m. and it is known for certain that the victim wasn't killed until after 2.

Nonetheless, after 8 years of appeals and recantations, Ryan Ferguson remains in a Missouri prison.

I don't think we should get our hopes up for Knox or Sollecito. No matter how nonsensical the prosecution's story, once a conviction is obtained, reversing the verdict tends to call the entire system into question. And bureaucratic systems are like human bodies, they are ruthlessly efficient in fighting off invaders who threaten the health of the organism.

Not only did he dream it but it was 2 years later and the video shows LE spoonfeeding him the details. This is one I have been following for some time now. This could be a case like this one where the prosecutor (whom is now a judge) could be in trouble as it appears he withheld information, etc etc etc

 

[sherlockh]

BBM

That came from the prosecution in which Mignini even consulted a psychic.

This were the first 6 results of a quick google search and they all say prosecution not defense

at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

Prosecutors on Saturday accused a University of Washington student of fatally stabbing her British house mate in a satanic rite in Perugia

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008283886_knox19.html

Prosecutors "alleged it was some kind of Satanic rite, with Amanda allegedly first touching Meredith with the point of a knife, then slitting her throat, while Sollecito held her by the shoulders, from behind, Guede held her by an arm" and tried to sexually penetrate her, Maori said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,440482,00.html

An American student slit the throat of her British house mate in a Satanic rite, prosecutors told an Italian court today

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhidcwojcwmh/rss2/#ixzz1ULx9vOtr

Italian prosecutors yesterday accused Amanda Knox of stabbing to death the Leeds Univeristy exchange student Meredith Kercher in a satanic ritual with the complicity of her former boyfriend and an Ivory Coast drifter

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4968044.ece

Amanda Knox, an American exchange student, stabbed her British fellow student and flatmate Meredith Kercher in the neck at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

4 of your 6 links say exactly what I said. That it was the defense lawyers accusing the prosecution. Two of your 6 links 'forgot' to mention that part and directly blamed the prosecution. I already gave the original quote from Maori so I don't see what is exactly the point here?

 

[Allusonz]

For people who say Rafe should have been able to knock down the door:

Luca Altieri, a friend of Romanelli’s boyfriend, who had arrived on the scene with him, agreed to break down the door. Luca was a big young man. Six hard kicks and a shoulder, he estimated later, broke it down.

Burleigh, Nina (2011). The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox (Kindle Locations 530-532). Broadway. Kindle Edition.

And he did this AFTER whatever Rafe tried to do.

It took alot of effort to get this door down and Luca was not small thus the argument about RS not being able to get it down flies right out the door

 

[Allusonz]

This together with the fact that in Rudy's skype call he said the window was not smashed when he was at the house makes me wonder whether RG didn't use the front door and something happened afterwards. I was thinking the wind smashed the windows but then there is the infamous rock...

But I can't help but think that when Rudy gives a little detail like that (and like the toilet detail) that it may well stem from the truth. I am NOT saying I trust RG by any means. Just noticing his pattern of storytelling.

There are some details which RG has not deviated from. The timeline is one. The window of MK's was originally reported as being broken. Yup can't forget the rock either

 

[sherlockh]

@ Sherlock : Burleigh.

So there goes the idea that you said, that I had stupidly not considered that the watch was not her mother's. ALSO: Guede had taken out pots and pans and cooked pasta and spinach at the nursery school in Milan - in Mrs. Diaz' Perugain cottage, the thief had also cooked food.

Pasta and spinach? Some burglar he is. Sounds more like he was camping

 

[Allusonz]

You know Mig is reading it, so hopefully there's nothing sue-worthy in it.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

OMG I am going to have to put all these lawsuits into excel just to keep track of the numbers rofl

 

[SMK]

Classified as True Crime

http://www.bookdepository.com/Fatal-Gift-Beauty-Nina-Burleigh/9780307588586

I was taking it from the Random House, New York classification, inside the cover of the book:

Italian Homicide, Case Studies, Murder Trials, (Italian); :snooty: and the book has been reviewed under "Non-Fiction, Legal" as well....

 

[Allusonz]

I don't own or want one either. If you go Amazon, they will let you download a kindle type thing for your PC. It's fast and easy. You can wind up with a virtual library on your computer. Wish i could scan in all the books I have laying around here. Oh, that would be thousands of pages! The good feature about it is the search feature. Like you can put in Rudy's name and it googles Rudy for the whole book. I love that! And when you copy and paste, it puts in the cite for you.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=kcp_pc_mkt_lnd?docId=1000426311

Many notebooks and apps now have that ability as well. As much as I love books and I do understand what you are saying Nova technology thrives. There will still be my library that I love so much in my home full of the books that I do love

 

[Allusonz]

I was taking it from the Random House, New York classification, inside the cover of the book:

Italian Homicide, Case Studies, Murder Trials, (Italian); :snooty: and the book has been reviewed under "Non-Fiction, Legal" as well....

I have not figured out how anyone is attempting to state that this is some type of fiction....

Since it is about a crime with a number of different twists and turns in it, this book could conceivably be under a number of different non-fiction areas. Put it under the one SMK that you believe it to be best suited. It is though non-fiction

 

[SMK]

I have not figured out how anyone is attempting to state that this is some type of fiction....

Since it is about a crime with a number of different twists and turns in it, this book could conceivably be under a number of different non-fiction areas. Put it under the one SMK that you believe it to be best suited. It is though non-fiction

Yes. Although I understand Websleuth's idea of "internet rumors", there comes a point at which an award winning non-fiction author, whom Time, the New York Times, the New Yorker, and the Washington Post have deemed fit to hire and to award; and the world-renowned Columbia University School of Journalism has deemed fit to teach, must be taken seriously.

How can such a professional be said to be spreading mere rumors? No one has to believe her, but I trust her implicitly. In any case, the book has been reviewed under "Non Fiction", and Random House , NYC classifies it under "Case Studies, Italian Murder Trials" and the like.

 

[Allusonz]

Well, it just occured to me to say that it must be like when someone makes a movie of a factual event. Not everything in the movie is real or fact or something the screen writer could have known. I DO have to keep in mind that this is not the Motivational report, even though she seems to have more unbiased facts than it did! :twocents:

However, I guess some others might read it with impunity. who knows.

I am still of the opinion that a movie would not do this justice. A mini series yes.

Malkmus said another one was in the works from the persepctive of a journalist but I hope it is not simply a 2 hour one. There is no way you could possibly get all the twists and turns of this case into 2 hours

 

[SMK]

Pasta and spinach? Some burglar he is. Sounds more like he was camping

Actually, he was. In the law office, he made neat little piles of things all over the place, and he was fond of cooking in people's kitchens. But would YOU like to come home, to find that Guede had been cooking pasta and vegetables taken from your fridge, with your pots, and on your stove?:waitasec:

 

[Allusonz]

Hi SMK - interesting information. I do just want to point out that the info in Ms. Burleigh's book would be considered rumor and not fact for the purposes of our website. Not putting down the book or the author - she sounds like she has impeccable credentials. However if we can not review her sources of information, we must consider the info to be rumor and treat it as such. Also, do you know if the book is classified as fiction or nonfiction?

Thanks,

Salem

Rumour? Are you serious? Or pulling my toe?

 

[otto]

The only pic I have is from here:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Prosecutionscase.html
So he went up that grating? He threw a rock didn't he? So did he climb up with a rock? Because it's 15 feet high, right?


If that's the case then maybe he did enter through the faulty front door, but he had a rock on him already. Meredith comes home, locks them both in. He attempts to flee, can't open the front door, and goes to the closest room to escape... knocks things around in the dark, and throws a rock at the window to break it, then realizes how high the window is just as Meredith confronts him. No facts to back that up, just another thought.

As for Knox's poor decisions, prior to Perugia it's my opinion that most people would allow Knox to babysit their kids and almost no one would let Rudy babysit their kids.

In the last few days both you, for the kids, and sherlockh seem to be downplaying Guede's past, almost like he's just a typical nice kid like any other. Like his life and the decisions he had made, thus far, was equivalent to Amanda's and Raffaelle's. It also seems, in some posts, like there is an argument being presented that he WASN'T the murderer.

I knew plenty of people in college who sang inappropriately, told false stories to make themselves look better, and got in trouble with cops because of loud parties. I didn't know anyone who broke into houses, and whose adoptive (or even biological) family disowned them for lying.

I concede the point that Amanda has made poor decisions. I think the ones you stated above are skewed. point by point 1) It wasn't stupid to stay, it was stupid not to lawyer up. 2) I don't know that her email was wrong. I think it matches with her explanations up until the 6th, with a few murky areas that I think are typical memory problems (exact sequencing issues) 3) Amanda was known to do yoga at all hours and in all places and to inappropriately do it in the presence of Filomena. Yes, bad judgement. 4) After two hours of questioning, on the 5th day of questioning, and after 4 days of previous questioning, and after being told there was solid proof that she was at the murder scene and other things of which we will never know the exact details for certain, she accused an innocent man of whom the poice were suspicious because of a text on her phone. 5) I don't think she claimed she was "deprived of the necessities of life and beaten for 54 hours." I googled this, and the only person who I could find who said this was you in websleuths. Back as early as #6 thread. Google showed Amanda's mother said she was questioned for 54 hours over 91 hours. Amanda's mom said Amanda was deprived of food and water. Amanda did say she was whacked on the head. She did not say "beaten." 6) As for treating the process like a joke, I think she has made some poor decisions during the trial, but I have seen far worse. She did not appear TO ME to treat it like a joke. It appeared TO ME that she inappropriately tried to maintain a "positive sunny attitude" in the face of a bad situation.

I know that it's easy for all of us to start spinning the story to match our beliefs (i.e. "positive sunny attitude" written above). But Guede was in clear trouble, and in fact, he is a murderer. I think we all believe he wielded a knife and at least attempted to sexually assault Meredith. That IS who he is.

I can logically understand asking how someone can believe Guede guilty and AK and RS innocent.

I don't get it when the facts implicating RS and AK are stated as clear and obvious, followed up by stating the facts proving Guede guilty are not clear and obvious.

The door was the type that had to be locked when closed. If it was not locked, it did not stay closed.

The door was not left wide open when Knox and Sollecito left the afternoon before (per their information), and they were the last to be at the cottage before Meredith returned home alone. Therefore, it was locked when Meredith arrived home. It has been ruled out that Meredith invited Guede in because she was tired (having been at halloween parties until 6 am - IIRC), probably a bit hungover and had borrowed a book (to prepare for an exam) that she had to return the following day at noon.

There is no evidence to suggest that Guede was carrying a large rock.

When did Knox babysit children ... when she was 14 years old? A lot changes between 14 and 20. The family - even CNN - has been publishing childhood photos of Knox in order to influence public opinion into believing that she's a wee lass. If Guede had a PR company, we would be seeing sweet innocent pictures of him as a child too. The bottom line is that none of the culprits were children when they committed the murder.

Guede was abandoned by his mother. At the age of 5, he went to Italy with his father and, when his father returned to the Ivory Coast, he was adopted by a well to do family in Perugia. He was not a good student, but excelled at basketball. He was not a good worker, but he had his own apartment. Sollecito had been picked up by police for drug possession, but not Guede. Sollecito had been caught with bestiality videos on his computer and had to be monitored because of his abnormal interests. Knox had been given a citation for disturbance of the peace and rock throwing. Much has been done to paint Guede as a bad person prior to the murder, but Guede had no criminal record. When he was discovered in the daycare, which he thought was a squatter's place (according to him), he was non-confrontational. There was no violence in Guede's past.

Curt and Edda Knox are facing slander charges for publicly stating to the British media that Knox was deprived of physically and pyschologically abused for 54 hours. The only source for that information is Knox ... as neither her lawyers nor parents would make that up for no reason.

The evidence against all three culprits was sufficient for a jury or Judge (Guede's trial) to conclude that they are all guilty of murder. The evidence against Guede is not stronger than the evidence against the other two. However, if we eliminate all the forensic evidence, then the evidence against all three of them is equally weak. Guede admitted being in the bathroom at the time of the murder and the evidence proves that he was in the bathroom at some point.

Regarding the 54 hours:

"But Knox's lawyers say the Seattle native only confessed to being at home the night of the murder after nearly 54 hours of intense interrogation without a solicitor or interpreter. She later retracted her statement."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/amanda-knoxs-lawyers-confident/story-fn6e1m7z-1225992691127

"Curt Knox said, "Amanda was abused physically and verbally. She told us she was hit in the back of the head by a police officer with an open hand, at least twice. The police told her, 'If you ask for a lawyer, things will get worse for you' and 'If you don't give us some explanation for what happened, you're going to go to jail for a very long time.'"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/15/501364/main20031993.shtml