Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[wasnt_me]

He pulls her zippered jacket off and leaves it turned inside-out. He then rolls Meredith onto her back. He pulls her layered sweatshirt and tee shirt above her bra, then rotates her onto her side and pulls the bra apart with brute force. He tosses it at her feet.

So you're saying she was wearing a sweatshirt AND a jacket? Yeah, I just read the MOT report and according to it, she definitely had on 3 layers. That, in my opinion, makes RG's story of redressing after fooling around even more inane.

Oh, in that case, she was DEFINITELY killed when she got in the house. Who sits around in a tee shirt, sweatshirt AND jacket, socks and shoes while in the house for hours?

And there's blood spatter still on her clothes because she is still breathing. That point cannot be forgotten. The fatal wound was done, but then she breathed and drowned in her own blood. It's gruesome, but that's how all the blood spatter occured.

 

[sherlockh]

It is, indeed , an Addidas Women's Jacket!! (too bad something so evil and sad had to happen to the person wearing it )

Yes, Hendry believes she was stabbed while wearing it: His description of this most brutal and horrific attack makes logical sense from beginning to end:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry100.html

Silly word games. Call it a jacket and that would make it more believable that she would have immediately taken it off when she got home. Call it a sweatshirt so she might as well still wear it at any time. Depending on how cold it was in the cottage there is no way to tell when she would have taken it off no matter how you want to call this sweatshirt

Hendry is conveniently forgetting 'a few' things. He doesn't mention the lack of defense wounds, the 2 different knives, the strangulation, etc... He already starts silly IMO. What kind of burglar would deliberately go to her bedroom to confront her? Why does the burglar not get the heck out of Dodge?

 

[Nova]

Agreed on the language aspect. In my final year I had to give a business presentation in Russian....

Off-topic and just for Sonata's benefit: one of my grad school chums was a Russian major at Georgetown. To complete his major, he had to pass an oral exam. In the test, he was asked to discuss environmental destruction in modern Russia and he did so for 20 minutes, using the Russian word "poluzia" to mean environmental pollution.

He thought it odd the test-giver was stifling giggles until after the exam when he was informed that "poluzia" in Russian means an ejaculation of semen not smog.

(I may not be remembering the right Russian word, but I'm sure you get the gist. In Spanish, the trap for students is usually "embarasada", which students use for "embarrassed" but which really means "pregnant".)

 

[dgfred]

Yes, I think there was some cleaning and staging done in Meredith's room too.

I'm not sure how it started. I think RG assaulted Meredith sexually during the murder or torture (smaller stabs and pricks). I think RS and AK came back to the cottage... cleaned some and staged rape (removed clothing/moved body) because they knew RG had assaulted Meredith previously. I believe they decided to stage a break in because the already had heard thru the grapevine that RG had been previously in some trouble. I believe Meredith's pants were on during the sexual assault and removed later.

 

[SMK]

Silly word games. Call it a jacket and that would make it more believable that she would have immediately taken it off when she got home. Call it a sweatshirt so she might as well still wear it at any time. Depending on how cold it was in the cottage there is no way to tell when she would have taken it off no matter how you want to call this sweatshirt

Hendry is conveniently forgetting 'a few' things. He doesn't mention the lack of defense wounds, the 2 different knives, the strangulation, etc... He already starts silly IMO. What kind of burglar would deliberately go to her bedroom to confront her? Why does the burglar not get the heck out of Dodge?

1. 2 different knives.....somehow, that never seemed right. Is it proven? finally and formally?
2. Because she locked the door from the inside, and pocketed the key, and he was trapped? that is why he confronts her? Or he intends to rape her? the sexual motive?:waitasec:

 

[dgfred]

Off-topic and just for Sonata's benefit: one of my grad school chums was a Russian major at Georgetown. To complete his major, he had to pass an oral exam. In the test, he was asked to discuss environmental destruction in modern Russia and he did so for 20 minutes, using the Russian word "poluzia" to mean environmental pollution.

He thought it odd the test-giver was stifling giggles until after the exam when he was informed that "poluzia" in Russian means an ejaculation of semen not smog.

(I may not be remembering the right Russian word, but I'm sure you get the gist. In Spanish, the trap for students is usually "embarasada", which students use for "embarrassed" but which really means "pregnant".)

OT too but I have many latino customers... they say pregunta for question. I always say to my co-worker... 'he/she doesn't look pregnant'. Yes... I am bored at work on occaision. :crazy:

 

[Nova]

But there is evidence all around the crime scene (the entire cottage) that point to AK and RS being involved too. I feel the need to mention the mixed dna with Meredith's blood/luminol bare prints/bathroom bare partial print/bra clasp, no alibi, the rubbish told, and knife... even though I don't want to really open up any of the 'old' arguments again and I know the are highly disputed here and elsewhere. Just mentioning.

***The staged break in is crucial evidence of AK at least being involved, and there by RS too. RG would have no reason to do so. If the staged break in is not disproven somehow, I really see no way out of at least the convictions being upheld... even if with a reduction in time being served if the knife and bra clasp are thrown out. That is my opinion only.

Then perhaps we should see others past and behavior as relevant too:
AK
-Citation for a loud rock throwing party. Is that relevant in some way?
-Rumor of a previous 'prank' of a kidnapping while at Univ. of Washington.
-Phone calls to a later charged cocaine dealer both just before and just after the murder of Meredith. Didn't RG mention Meredith calling AK a drugged-up tart? Was that one of the truthful things he told since some leave in what times he claimed to have done things regarding TOD and where he was to fit into scenarios of AK and RS being innocent?
-Was she a 'tart' or not? Is it relevant whether she was or wasn't? Would this cause tension with RS or other girls?
-Are her many different stories of what happened to investigators and not remembering other times relevant to her guilt? In my opinion they are.
-Did she have behavior problems, or cleanliness problems from the cottage mates point of view at all? Can we assume she did because Meredith's friends testified Meredith had mentioned these things? Did she bring several men to the cottage, as the friends also said Meredith had mentioned?
-Was she jealous of Meredith at all? Maybe because of her many friends, where I don't recall any from Italy testifying on AK's behalf. Maybe because Meredith was going to be in Patrick's favor mixing drinks for him, while she was being demoted for poor work behavior to just handing out flyers? Was she angered at all by Meredith's sort of brushing her off a bit on Halloween night?

*Did AK care about these things at all, or look at them this way? IMO all these things are relevant if you look at a view from guilt, but not from a view of innocent. Same way for RG IMO, he had bad previous behavior and a kind of tough upbring. But like here in US trials, you can't even usually bring up convictions in most instances... it may not be relevant concerning this case or it may be.

RS
-Previous drug habit or problems. There's those drugs again :waitasec: .
-Liked carrying a knife on all occaisions. Wouldn't this be HIGHLY relevant?
-On 'watch' for looking at animal . No comment needed.
-Liked violent magna comics. How about the relevance of this? Can violent tendencies be assumed?
-Was his dad overbearing? Or just a concerned parent? Did he need to keep close tabs on him? Was this effecting RS? His dad could not lie for him during testifying (because of phone records)... and surely this put his defense in a bad way. Is the lying by RS relevant to his guilt? It is in my opinion.
-Was his mother's death effecting him terribly? Is it relevant in any way?
-Was he a virgin? Is that relevant, should it be? Just asking because I don't think so but the past is the past in some cases, and other times it can be of importance to different people/views... because AK was much more experienced. Did he have a problem with this... is it relevant? Did he trust AK?

Relevance of past behavior/actions is a tough call sometimes IMO.

IMO it's really straining to equate a noise complaint with breaking-and-entering and robbery.

There is nothing incriminating about leaving one's own DNA in one's own home.

I don't feel a need to go on, point by point. I think others have already done that better than I.

 

[Nova]

They call it a sweatshirt in the report, with a zipper. But IMO that can be considered a jacket too.

Soaked in blood doesn't show whether she was wearing it or not.
She could have taken it off herself and it fell into blood later.
She could have had it torn off her by the murderers and it fell in blood.
She could have had it on while murdered, then taken off by the murderer afterward to stage a rape scene more clearly. Thus RS dna on the bra clasp and her undressing possibly much after the murder.

Since there are no knife marks and it is not torn apart... it is hard to tell IMO.

If it had a zipper, was it unzipped before it was removed? If not, I would find that very significant.

 

[wasnt_me]

Silly word games. Call it a jacket and that would make it more believable that she would have immediately taken it off when she got home. Call it a sweatshirt so she might as well still wear it at any time. Depending on how cold it was in the cottage there is no way to tell when she would have taken it off no matter how you want to call this sweatshirt

Hendry is conveniently forgetting 'a few' things. He doesn't mention the lack of defense wounds, the 2 different knives, the strangulation, etc... He already starts silly IMO. What kind of burglar would deliberately go to her bedroom to confront her? Why does the burglar not get the heck out of Dodge?

Actually, you made a point of making it known that it was a sweatshirt when others were saying it was a jacket. Your point was that it was a sweatshirt, you'd never seen it called a jacket, and you always call jackets sweatshirts. You even went to the MOT report to prove that they called it a sweatshirt. So it might be a silly word game, but it seems to have originated with you. Certainly correct that if it's wrong, though.

Now it's known that she was wearing a long-sleaved shirt, another type of pull-over shirt AND a zippered jacket. Since it appears that there's blood all over the neck of the zippered Jacket, it is a logical conclusion that she was wearing it while stabbed at least once.

As for two different knives, there was only one knife. As for the burglar getting the heck out of dodge, we had a discussion at length as to why he might not be able to get the heck out of dodge. Locked front door, unable to jump back out the window in the dark. We had someone who did jumps like that come in and explained that going up and going down are two VERY different feats. And there's the chance MK could have caught him trying to leave. I don't too much buy Henry's theory that RG barged in her room, either. I think she caught him on the toilet and that's why he talks about how his pants were down and he fumbled to the ground. JMO, though.

 

[Malkmus]

Silly word games. Call it a jacket and that would make it more believable that she would have immediately taken it off when she got home. Call it a sweatshirt so she might as well still wear it at any time. Depending on how cold it was in the cottage there is no way to tell when she would have taken it off no matter how you want to call this sweatshirt

Hendry is conveniently forgetting 'a few' things. He doesn't mention the lack of defense wounds, the 2 different knives, the strangulation, etc... He already starts silly IMO. What kind of burglar would deliberately go to her bedroom to confront her? Why does the burglar not get the heck out of Dodge?

Meredith had cuts on the palms of her hands.

Rudy probably went for the font door, realized it was locked, and either confronted her then or she confronted him when she heard someone trying to open the door.

No one's saying a jacket is more believable than a sweatshirt. I think this is simply a point of clarifying some confusion. Most Americans picture sweatshirts as something completely different from a jacket. I don't think anyone really cares what it's called. We just all want to be on the same page as to what piece of evidence is being referred to.

 

[wasnt_me]

IMO it's really straining to equate a noise complaint with breaking-and-entering and robbery.

There is nothing incriminating about leaving one's own DNA in one's own home.

I don't feel a need to go on, point by point. I think others have already done that better than I.

This is so true. You and others have refuted these things again and again and then again and again.

 

[wasnt_me]

If it had a zipper, was it unzipped before it was removed? If not, I would find that very significant.

It was unzipped when we saw it, and it does have a rip on the sleeve. I already posted pictures and commented on that. These things are what I call pickles and cucumbers. If one has to think this hard about it, then that person is in danger of losing the logical, rational scenerio.

 

[Nova]

Silly word games. Call it a jacket and that would make it more believable that she would have immediately taken it off when she got home. Call it a sweatshirt so she might as well still wear it at any time. Depending on how cold it was in the cottage there is no way to tell when she would have taken it off no matter how you want to call this sweatshirt

Hendry is conveniently forgetting 'a few' things. He doesn't mention the lack of defense wounds, the 2 different knives, the strangulation, etc... He already starts silly IMO. What kind of burglar would deliberately go to her bedroom to confront her? Why does the burglar not get the heck out of Dodge?

Because the front door is locked and won't open without a key.

Because it's one thing to climb up to a second-story window in the dark and quite another to climb back down when one cannot see footholds.

 

[Nova]

OT too but I have many latino customers... they say pregunta for question. I always say to my co-worker... 'he/she doesn't look pregnant'. Yes... I am bored at work on occaision. :crazy:

Well, I'm an idiot: I know preguntar, but I never connected it to the English word "pregnant."

 

[Nova]

Yes, I think there was some cleaning and staging done in Meredith's room too.

I'm not sure how it started. I think RG assaulted Meredith sexually during the murder or torture (smaller stabs and pricks). I think RS and AK came back to the cottage... cleaned some and staged rape (removed clothing/moved body) because they knew RG had assaulted Meredith previously. I believe they decided to stage a break in because the already had heard thru the grapevine that RG had been previously in some trouble. I believe Meredith's pants were on during the sexual assault and removed later.

How did they clean and stage without leaving footprints, fingerprints and even more smudges?

 

[dgfred]

IMO it's really straining to equate a noise complaint with breaking-and-entering and robbery.

There is nothing incriminating about leaving one's own DNA in one's own home.

I don't feel a need to go on, point by point. I think others have already done that better than I.

What about a kidnapping/other prank and cocaine calls. Are they relevant?

Why wasn't Filomena's dna mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room, instead of AK's?

No problem about going on... my point was the same relevance of past behavior/problems/etc is relevant depending on who is judging the relevance.

 

[wasnt_me]

How did they clean and stage without leaving footprints, fingerprints and even more smudges?

I want to know how the staged the rape without RG to provide the DNA that was inside the vagina. Or is this DNA now being contested? I, sadly would not blame anyone for contesting it, but there was some mild bruising to her pelvis, just not enough for them to conclude rape, which I also disagree with them on that.

 

[SMK]

Meredith had cuts on the palms of her hands.

Rudy probably went for the font door, realized it was locked, and either confronted her then or she confronted him when she heard someone trying to open the door.

No one's saying a jacket is more believable than a sweatshirt. I think this is simply a point of clarifying some confusion. Most Americans picture sweatshirts as something completely different from a jacket. I don't think anyone really cares what it's called. We just all want to be on the same page as to what piece of evidence is being referred to.

As for the cuts, now I am confused. I always believed that she DID, as you point out above, have defensive wounds. This is good for the DEFENSE, as it shows Knox and Sollecito were NOT holding her down. Now I see on TJMK that Steve Moore, big pro-defense former FBI agent, is saying she had NO defense wounds, which the Massei report refutes???:waitasec:

False Claim 3: Meredith had no defensive wounds on her hands

Steve Moore told Frank Shiers on Kiro FM that Meredith had no defensive wounds on her hands. Moore clearly hadn’t read the autopsy report or its summary in the Massei Report.

“They consist also in some tiny defensive wounds: one on the palm of her [396] right hand of a length of .6cm showing a tiny amount of blood; another on the ulnar surface of the first phalange of the second finger of the left hand, also of length .6cm; another on the fingertip of the first finger with a superficial wound of .3cm, and another tiny wound corresponding to the fourth radius.” (The Massei report, pages 369-370).

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...rmer_campus_cop_steve_moore_serially_mischar/

 

[Nova]

Meredith had cuts on the palms of her hands.

Rudy probably went for the font door, realized it was locked, and either confronted her then or she confronted him when she heard someone trying to open the door.

No one's saying a jacket is more believable than a sweatshirt. I think this is simply a point of clarifying some confusion. Most Americans picture sweatshirts as something completely different from a jacket. I don't think anyone really cares what it's called. We just all want to be on the same page as to what piece of evidence is being referred to.

I think the other difference is that many of us lounge around the house in a sweatshirt when it is cool.

A jacket, on the other hand, usually implies something insufficiently comfortable to wear around the house (though a student on a budget and trying to conserve fuel might do it).

If it was a synthetic Adidas jacket, I'm less likely to believe MK wore it for several hours after she got home. A cotton sweatshirt, on the other hand, is a different matter.

 

[dgfred]

How did they clean and stage without leaving footprints, fingerprints and even more smudges?

I don't know, were they wearing gloves?

Did they wipe up some footprints/etc with the towels there?

Were they using AK's lamp to see better?

Did they move about in the blood, or just move the body and take off Meredith's clothes?

DNA was on the bra clasp that was cut off.

DNA was on the knife that was possibly the murder weapon.

Even if AK's dna was all over the place, wouldn't you say it was because she lived there???