Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[SMK]

I'm not sure that like 300$ is enough for a 'big' drug deal. I'm thinking maybe a deal, and a call after the murder for a warning of what might come.

Maybe a deal, and then a warning that cops were around the cottage. But does not prove anything. I guess I find the whole drug thing depressing, a waste of time. If Knox and Sollecito did not smoke or use drugs, they may not have been suspected....

 

[dgfred]

Maybe a deal, and then a warning that cops were around the cottage. But does not prove anything. I guess I find the whole drug thing depressing, a waste of time. If Knox and Sollecito did not smoke or use drugs, they may not have been suspected....

I don't see it that way SMK. I believe the evasive/contradictory statements, the staging, their behavior and the evidence collected was what got them suspected... not the drugs.

Of interest too was all the talk about how 'good' AK was, and that they only smoked 1 joint... not she was fooling around with a cocaine dealer around the time of the murder. I see the depressing part, just not the waste of time part.

 

[SMK]

I don't see it that way SMK. I believe the evasive/contradictory statements, the staging, their behavior and the evidence collected was what got them suspected... not the drugs.

Of interest too was all the talk about how 'good' AK was, and that they only smoked 1 joint... not she was fooling around with a cocaine dealer around the time of the murder. I see the depressing part, just not the waste of time part.

I meant Knox and Sollecito wasted their time on drugs. I guess I do not see the fascination. When I was young, having a beer or glass of wine, or a cigarette, was a big deal. (Even though my generation were into pot, cocaine, LSD--ugh). So if they are innocent, the drugs made them suspect because foggy, confused, not able to recall times and details. If guilty, was probably drugs which caused the action. So they ought not to have wasted their time on them......Guess drugs just were always foreign to me....not that it did me any good to stay clear of them.....

 

[dgfred]

Oh, I understand now.

 

[dgfred]

I meant Knox and Sollecito wasted their time on drugs. I guess I do not see the fascination. When I was young, having a beer or glass of wine, or a cigarette, was a big deal. (Even though my generation were into pot, cocaine, LSD--ugh). So if they are innocent, the drugs made them suspect because foggy, confused, not able to recall times and details. If guilty, was probably drugs which caused the action. So they ought not to have wasted their time on them......Guess drugs just were always foreign to me....not that it did me any good to stay clear of them.....

Some things to question SMK?

Does that make you question the movement to describe her as a normal 'next door' type that was just a naive college student caught up in the circumstances and pressure? Do the family and close-in members of her support know that she wasn't? Wouldn't it have been better to not say anything about it except 'you don't really know or have any actual evidence of it'? I mean contact with a cocaine dealer, with RS having a previous problem with drugs, RG supposidly (thought by some) was a small time dealer or go-between... these things do start to connect IMO to maybe a drug problem for all three.

BUT:

*The other side of might be: she was only his friend... and knew nothing of the cocaine dealing. It is possible. She might have even been his girlfriend at some point, maybe before RS, and was just contacting him in a time of stress.
After all, she may have even been questioning RS's loyalty to her at that point. Who knows with the limited information. I'm just thinking about all this stuff.

Does that make you question the effort to say she only smoked one joint (both by her, RS and others)?

What if she was smoking grass, taking cocaine or smoking it even, maybe drinking liquor/beer... could there be more? Would that combination be enough to make her make a REALLY stupid/rash/violent/extra-stupid decision on the spur of the moment? It is possible IMO.

Is it possible she was messed up on whatever, was going to work, found out she didn't have to work, saw RG in town, (made a stupid decision to prank Meredith or get more messed up), invited RG, and on from there? Now sounds possible IMO.

**Is it possible it was her stupid decision that got things started (maybe as a prank to steal Meredith's money and blame it on RG, maybe to trick RG into thinking (taking advantage of RG fancying AK) Meredith might be willing to hang out with him, maybe to prank an assault/kidnapping with mask, knives and gloves on- but Meredith threatened to call police, maybe they just went back and got messed up at the cottage and Meredith confronted AK and AK scuffled with Meredith and on from there??? Now also sounds possible if other drugs are involved IMO.

What about the boyfriend thing? She had been staying with RS all week but that article also mentions her and the guy have relations. So she was calling him both in the days before and after the murder. IIRC RS mentions another guy he worried she might be seeing/talking to.

BUT:
*Still he might have only been a boyfriend before RS, or only just a friend. Harder drugs might not have had anything to do with it. They were both tested for drugs but that would have been at the earliest (and I don't know when it actually was) five days after the murder- they admitted smoking which takes much longer to leave your system, but IIRC cocaine is out of the system much quicker. Would a regular drug user know this? I would think so.

I wish there WAS more information available. Just letting you have some stuff to think over in your bored times. :coffeews::websleuther:

 

[SMK]

Some things to question SMK?

Does that make you question the movement to describe her as a normal 'next door' type that was just a naive college student caught up in the circumstances and pressure? Do the family and close-in members of her support know that she wasn't? Wouldn't it have been better to not say anything about it except 'you don't really know or have any actual evidence of it'? I mean contact with a cocaine dealer, with RS having a previous problem with drugs, RG supposidly (thought by some) was a small time dealer or go-between... these things do start to connect IMO to maybe a drug problem for all three.

BUT:

*The other side of might be: she was only his friend... and knew nothing of the cocaine dealing. It is possible. She might have even been his girlfriend at some point, maybe before RS, and was just contacting him in a time of stress.
After all, she may have even been questioning RS's loyalty to her at that point. Who knows with the limited information. I'm just thinking about all this stuff.

Does that make you question the effort to say she only smoked one joint (both by her, RS and others)?

What if she was smoking grass, taking cocaine or smoking it even, maybe drinking liquor/beer... could there be more? Would that combination be enough to make her make a REALLY stupid/rash/violent/extra-stupid decision on the spur of the moment? It is possible IMO.

Is it possible she was messed up on whatever, was going to work, found out she didn't have to work, saw RG in town, (made a stupid decision to prank Meredith or get more messed up), invited RG, and on from there? Now sounds possible IMO.

**Is it possible it was her stupid decision that got things started (maybe as a prank to steal Meredith's money and blame it on RG, maybe to trick RG into thinking (taking advantage of RG fancying AK) Meredith might be willing to hang out with him, maybe to prank an assault/kidnapping with mask, knives and gloves on- but Meredith threatened to call police, maybe they just went back and got messed up at the cottage and Meredith confronted AK and AK scuffled with Meredith and on from there??? Now also sounds possible if other drugs are involved IMO.

What about the boyfriend thing? She had been staying with RS all week but that article also mentions her and the guy have relations. So she was calling him both in the days before and after the murder. IIRC RS mentions another guy he worried she might be seeing/talking to.

BUT:
*Still he might have only been a boyfriend before RS, or only just a friend. Harder drugs might not have had anything to do with it. They were both tested for drugs but that would have been at the earliest (and I don't know when it actually was) five days after the murder- they admitted smoking which takes much longer to leave your system, but IIRC cocaine is out of the system much quicker. Would a regular drug user know this? I would think so.

I wish there WAS more information available. Just letting you have some stuff to think over in your bored times. :coffeews::websleuther:

My bored times are about 12 hours each day :laugh::laugh:thanks so much for all this grist for the mill, therefore....much to mull over....:waitasec: and your musings are most appreciated ....I never did like the drug use, and I was very intellectual at Amanda's age and very against drugs:razz: (I cannot judge however, as I was crazy as a loon in other ways.... :crazy: )

I do believe the pot smoking in and of itself made her at the very least foggy when questioned, and open to changing her story This was a dangerous vulnerable position to be in , at the very least.

If there were more such as cocaine use and another love affair and such, then yes, that could have made something horrific escalate. Lots of entanglement and problems could arise from such a state of affairs. We have no proof of such however...:snooty: and thus may be compelled to go by "doubt in favor of the accused".

IF it was a PR campaign that was waged, they did a damned good job, as they shot hole after hole in the prosecution's theory....the staging especially, which was a major feature of the prosecution......more soon, thanks ol' boy........:seeya:

 

[emyr]

Some things to question SMK?

Does that make you question the movement to describe her as a normal 'next door' type that was just a naive college student caught up in the circumstances and pressure? Do the family and close-in members of her support know that she wasn't? Wouldn't it have been better to not say anything about it except 'you don't really know or have any actual evidence of it'? I mean contact with a cocaine dealer, with RS having a previous problem with drugs, RG supposidly (thought by some) was a small time dealer or go-between... these things do start to connect IMO to maybe a drug problem for all three.

BUT:

*The other side of might be: she was only his friend... and knew nothing of the cocaine dealing. It is possible. She might have even been his girlfriend at some point, maybe before RS, and was just contacting him in a time of stress.
After all, she may have even been questioning RS's loyalty to her at that point. Who knows with the limited information. I'm just thinking about all this stuff.

Does that make you question the effort to say she only smoked one joint (both by her, RS and others)?

What if she was smoking grass, taking cocaine or smoking it even, maybe drinking liquor/beer... could there be more? Would that combination be enough to make her make a REALLY stupid/rash/violent/extra-stupid decision on the spur of the moment? It is possible IMO.

Is it possible she was messed up on whatever, was going to work, found out she didn't have to work, saw RG in town, (made a stupid decision to prank Meredith or get more messed up), invited RG, and on from there? Now sounds possible IMO.

**Is it possible it was her stupid decision that got things started (maybe as a prank to steal Meredith's money and blame it on RG, maybe to trick RG into thinking (taking advantage of RG fancying AK) Meredith might be willing to hang out with him, maybe to prank an assault/kidnapping with mask, knives and gloves on- but Meredith threatened to call police, maybe they just went back and got messed up at the cottage and Meredith confronted AK and AK scuffled with Meredith and on from there??? Now also sounds possible if other drugs are involved IMO.

What about the boyfriend thing? She had been staying with RS all week but that article also mentions her and the guy have relations. So she was calling him both in the days before and after the murder. IIRC RS mentions another guy he worried she might be seeing/talking to.

BUT:
*Still he might have only been a boyfriend before RS, or only just a friend. Harder drugs might not have had anything to do with it. They were both tested for drugs but that would have been at the earliest (and I don't know when it actually was) five days after the murder- they admitted smoking which takes much longer to leave your system, but IIRC cocaine is out of the system much quicker. Would a regular drug user know this? I would think so.

I wish there WAS more information available. Just letting you have some stuff to think over in your bored times. :coffeews::websleuther:

I wonder if they did hair testing? Hair testing shows exact drug use over many years.

 

[emyr]

Hey emyr,
Another thing to think about is how was the lawyer going to climb thru the window (as Allusonz posted) and complete the climbing demonstration... if he was planning to go all the way into the room, bars would have prevented that.
Doesn't seem like it could be or would be both ways. Why the demonstration at all if he wasn't even trying to go thru the window... just show reaching it?

Because the prosecution said the wall was impossible to scale? Then if they showed someone scaling it, that means it wasn't impossible. If the bars were already on the window, then they would have felt they made their point, and the rest could be determined by inference.

If the bars weren't on the window, then I don't know why they didn't bother to complete the excercise. I have found it annoying as well.

That being said, he proved to me that it is possible. The issue was more getting to the window, rather than getting through it.

In fact, I have broken into a second story window twice myself. (My own window, in college). It was at chest height, I am quite uncoordinated, and it wasn't that hard.

 

[dgfred]

Because the prosecution said the wall was impossible to scale? Then if they showed someone scaling it, that means it wasn't impossible. If the bars were already on the window, then they would have felt they made their point, and the rest could be determined by inference.

If the bars weren't on the window, then I don't know why they didn't bother to complete the excercise. I have found it annoying as well.

That being said, he proved to me that it is possible. The issue was more getting to the window, rather than getting through it.

In fact, I have broken into a second story window twice myself. (My own window, in college). It was at chest height, I am quite uncoordinated, and it wasn't that hard.

Nice points. I too have broken in to my own house many times. Once even breaking a window.

One point tho:
I don't think anybody would look at the window and think the wall was impossible to scale. Unless they were really short. It is plain to see IMO that standing on the grate of the lower window allows a person to reach the second story window. But it also shows IMO that the next part was what might seem improbable. Maybe getting thru was hard enough that they didn't want to show on film... chancing a bad 'look' for later observers??? Maybe there are no other pics and they stopped there because of just such a thing.

For 1- pulling yourself up to the window with the shutters closed, with a rock (kind of heavy) in one hand, opening the shutters, breaking the window with the rock, unlocking/opening the inner shutters, and then pulling ones self thru would be the tuff part without leaving some kind of other evidence. Then why would the glass be on top of the clothes thrown about? Why is AK's dna mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room? Why not Filomena's?

For 2- If for some reason the lawyer did stop just reaching for the window... why not just admit that and be done with speculation? Maybe they did in court, I do not know.

 

[wasnt_me]

Went to the VC report for some evening reading. I am perusing the part about the analysis of Stephani's work.

Nice Quote here on the knife:

Despite the negative result of the blood identification test and the failure to carry out cell identification tests (and therefore the failure to identify the material removed from Exhibit 36) the Technical Consultant hypothesized the presence of “presumed exfoliated cells” on the material sampled from the knife handle (traces A-D-F) and of “presumed biological material” of another nature (presumably blood, considering the tests aimed at the detection of haematic peroxidases) on the material sampled from the blade (samples B-C-E-G).

The hypotheses formulated by the Technical Consultant about the nature of the material analyzed are wholly arbitrary in that they are not supported by any scientifically objective confirmation.

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/...ing-item-36-knife/samples-from-item-36-knife/

Did Comodi try to address this at all in the last hearing? I wonder what PS's rebuttal to this will be. Anyone have articles or testimony that contradict this?

 

[SMK]

Nice points. I too have broken in to my own house many times. Once even breaking a window.

One point tho:
I don't think anybody would look at the window and think the wall was impossible to scale. Unless they were really short. It is plain to see IMO that standing on the grate of the lower window allows a person to reach the second story window. I always thought this too, so why on PMF and TJMK do they still say "impossible to scale"??:razz::razz:But it also shows IMO that the next part was what might seem improbable. Maybe getting thru was hard enough that they didn't want to show on film... chancing a bad 'look' for later observers??? Maybe there are no other pics and they stopped there because of just such a thing.Yes, wish they would just come out with it....

For 1- pulling yourself up to the window with the shutters closed, with a rock (kind of heavy) in one hand, opening the shutters, breaking the window with the rock, unlocking/opening the inner shutters, and then pulling ones self thru would be the tuff part without leaving some kind of other evidence. Then why would the glass be on top of the clothes thrown about? because mayhap filomena left the clothes tossed about as she was packingWhy is AK's dna mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room? Why not Filomena's?

For 2- If for some reason the lawyer did stop just reaching for the window... why not just admit that and be done with speculation? Maybe they did in court, I do not know.

:waitasec:.............:seeya:

 

[Malkmus]

Because the prosecution said the wall was impossible to scale? Then if they showed someone scaling it, that means it wasn't impossible. If the bars were already on the window, then they would have felt they made their point, and the rest could be determined by inference.

If the bars weren't on the window, then I don't know why they didn't bother to complete the excercise. I have found it annoying as well.

That being said, he proved to me that it is possible. The issue was more getting to the window, rather than getting through it.

In fact, I have broken into a second story window twice myself. (My own window, in college). It was at chest height, I am quite uncoordinated, and it wasn't that hard.

To be honest I don't think the prosecution ever argued it was impossible to scale the wall and gain entry that way. The judge during the pretrial specifically said Guede was capable of doing it and that it would not take Spiderman to do so. Also, the fact that bars were put on that window afterwards is an indication that it is indeed possible.

 

[wasnt_me]

Don't forget that the FR allegedly stated to the police and in testimony that she was worried about someone breaking in the window.

Do we have any information about break-ins at the cottage before the 4 ladies lived there?

 

[dgfred]

I think they mean the whole process of actually breaking thru, reaching thru to unlock the inner shutters, and crawl up and thru to get into the room without leaving any evidence of such. Like no glass outside and no disturbance under the window in the grass below.

Filomena would have remembered mostly how she left the room. So the glass on top of items that were not on the floor when she left are a big RED FLAG IMO to investigators. Plus mostly remembering shutting the window and outside shutters. Of course Filomena might have smoked one joint, and can't remember exactly :innocent: ... sorry--- had to throw that jab in :truce: .

 

[SMK]

I think they mean the whole process of actually breaking thru, reaching thru to unlock the inner shutters, and crawl up and thru to get into the room without leaving any evidence of such. Like no glass outside and no disturbance under the window in the grass below.

Filomena would have remembered mostly how she left the room. So the glass on top of items that were not on the floor when she left are a big RED FLAG IMO to investigators. Plus mostly remembering shutting the window and outside shutters. Of course Filomena might have smoked one joint, and can't remember exactly :innocent: ... sorry--- had to throw that jab in :truce: .

But mayhap is true.....:waitasec:

 

[dgfred]

Hey Malkmus,

What are your thoughts on TOD if you don't mind my asking?

What is your time frame for naming the time someone died by stomach/etc contents? Or in other words... how exact is it?

 

[dgfred]

I think Filomena testified that she was more worried about the view from the driveway/area in front of the door... that was window high but many feet away if she left the window open.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=42&image_id=3499

Like from the area of this picture.

 

[dgfred]

It is easy to break into any second story window IMO. A ladder and only the risk of being seen/heard stand against it.

 

[SMK]

Hey Malkmus,

What are your thoughts on TOD if you don't mind my asking?

What is your time frame for naming the time someone died by stomach/etc contents? Or in other words... how exact is it?

I am interested to hear how Malkmus will answer you. In the meantime, here is something I found on estimating TOD via stomach contents:

Using Stomach Contents to Estimate Time of Death?:

In her book "Time of Death, The True Story of the Search for Death's Stopwatch" published in 2001, experienced pathologist Jessica Snyder Sachs makes the following observations on the use of stomach contents.

Pages 7 - 8
"It's ( time of death ) one of the most common questions I get," echoed Missouri medical examiner Jay Dix forty years later. "I have to tell them -- it's impossible." Yet Dix -- one of the nation's top pathologists and the author of the 1999 forensic atlas Time of Death, Decomposition, and Identification -- sees it done all the time. "I'm continually reviewing cases in which pathologists pinpoint death to within a few hours," he said "Not that I've ever seen a case where it was appropriate"

Page 8
"The conviction hinged largely on a medical examiner's opinion that the victim had died during a half hour interval when the two were together, a determination based solely on the food removed from the girl's stomach at autopsy. Today most prudent pathologists scoff at the naivety, if not misconduct, of anyone claiming to pin-point time of death so precisely based on stomach contents. ( Even Baden gives a fudge factor of plus or minus two hours in his determinations )"

In relation to the O.J. Simpson case

Page 45
"When challenged, both experts had to admit that the quantity and quality of stomach contents had long ago been dismissed as the most unreliable of all postmortem time scales. Such grasping at straws would continue to be part of medical expert testimony when all else failed."

http://www.lundytruth.com/stomachcontents.html

So TOD in the Kercher case, if set at 9:30 PM, should be more estimated for the likely time of arrival home with Guede lying in wait, and the aborted call to her Mom, than on stomach contents, IMO.

 

[dgfred]

So are you saying giving a best two hours is best estimate it could be 9:30 - 11:30? Is that right? Or is it plus or minus 2 hours each way... which would be 4 hours?

I haven't seen anything that would show it was exactly 9:30.