Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[Nova]

Allusonz; Regarding the autopsy results you posted above - Meridith's murder was truly horrible, brutal, beyond words I can come up with!
Having almost drowned in water, I cannot image the pain/fear Meridith felt and suffered drowning in her own blood.

I assume she lost consciousness somewhere in there. Let's hope it was sooner rather than later.

 

[wasnt_me]

:clap::clap:great observation and non-action!

Yep, and I was thinking about it, too. I was standing there, looking at it for at least a minute. Then I thought, "well, I can't go to jail. All the humans are alive, and the cats, too!"

 

[wasnt_me]

From Hendry's article, I read that she had bruising on her hips and thighs that he attributed to knocking into furniture.

With the way the fight was in every corner of the room but the door, I have to conclude only one attacker. I find it hard to believe three people couldn't keep MK from stumbling all over the room to get away from them.

There was the finger swipe of blood by the bed, there was the blood and hair on the floor by the window, there was the chair shoved in at the desk and then the most horrid blood trails by the wardrobe. The whole time, it appeared as if the attacker was trying to keep a hold on her head. And from the jab wounds under her chin, it appears that the attacker was struggling to maintain hold of her head. If he had a pocketknife or flick knife, I can imagine that he was trying to hold her head, which straggled her, and she got away, launched herself over by the desk, and he whipped out the knife and went right back at her, getting her to the floor by the window, where her hair is smeared in the blood. Maybe. That's if she was strangled. Or the strangling was a sideaffect of trying so hard to hold her head still with the knife against her throat. She had bad bruising on the back of her head from where he'd been literally pulling her hair out. Some scalp came out with the hair. This is why I think he was trying to control her with just his hands first and then had to pull out the knife.

For some reason, I just think she made RG mad when she wouldn't give him a chance to BS he way out of it. He could have grabbed her in the living room and did all the bruising to her face. She got away and ran to her room. he whipped out of the knife and chased her. He might have got a knick on her before she got to her room, and that's why there's blood on her inside door handle, cause she held the wound and ran into her room and tried to lock the door. He probably burst in there, and Then I think he got even more angry when he couldn't keep control over her physically, which made him stab her hard. I think the first two cuts were "accidents" in the struggle. Then I think he probably didn't realize that he'd mortally wounded her until he rolled her over for the final power enforcement of rape. Then in the middle of that, it dawned on him that she was dying and he aborted the rape, tried to wipe up some of his footprints on the floor in there with the towel, cleaned his foot or whatever in the bathroom, dumped her purse into his bag and got the heck out of there.

Maybe he thought someone would return home and save her. Who knows.

My point is that I just don't see how three people can fair, vying for control of her head, as it seems the attacker was trying to do. Someone had a serious grip on her chin, and I don't see how there's enough room for that, for someone strangling AND someone holding a knife and jabbing at the same time. That also begs the question of who's holding her arms and legs.

An attack with three on one with her unable to fight at all doesn't seem like it would happen vertically, but horizontally instead. If that's the case, what's with the struggle all over the room? if she's strapped down by them on the floor, there would be no struggle all the way over by the window, nor would there be a need to drag her into that final position. She'd already be in it. Otherwise, how do three, while standing, subdue her limbs and her head? And if successful, why the fight pattern all over the room? If unsuccessful, why no evidence of the other two that proves they were unsuccessful?

I suppose AK and RS could have been elsewhere when RG's advances became violent. He tried to restrain and choke her, then AK or RS rushed in with a knife, but I have to wonder what on earth would make either or both of them do that if RG started the confrontation with AK's friend and roommate. If either AK or RS started the row, then I'd have to ask what in the world would make RG get involved. And again, if AK or RS started it, why is there zero evidence of them but so much of RG?

I'm really trying to figure out a guilty scenario, but I can't. I just don't know.

For some reason, I just can't agree with Hendry that she was just sitting in her room and RG just walked up in there and started stabbing her just cause she was home. Something led to it.

 

[wasnt_me]

Something just tells me that RG would have wanted to take the easy way out of the situation. He'd want to slip out unseen, or if he were seen, he'd try to talk his way out of it. Something happened where MK was either too scared and screaming to let him talk his way out of it or thinking she was in danger, she threatened to call the police, or she even might have gotten aggressive in getting rid of him. All within her right, but he reacted differently to her than he did the guy he "allegedly" pulled the knife on at the other house. Now, that might have been just because it was another male. Who knows.

I still think my best theory is she figured out someone was on the toilet (by smell maybe?) or she went to turn off the bathroom light in that other bathroom, saw him, screamed bloody murder, and ran. He stumbled off the toilet and chased her to her room.

 

[SMK]

The Kercher’s responsibilities for bringing true closure on Meredith

http://www.groundreport.com/Business/The-Kercher-s-responsibilities-for-bringing-true-c/2940957

 

[SMK]

Just an interesting observation re TOD excerpted from a post on JR forums:

So who is the more likely to be correct about the time of death?

Rudy, who was undoubtably there, and who puts it at 9:20pm
Two Pathologists who put it at 9-9:30pm
One Pathologist who put it between 9 and 10:30pm

or Massei who was not there and has no pathology skills who puts it at 11:40pm?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215085&page=75

 

[OldSteve]

From Hendry's article, I read that she had bruising on her hips and thighs that he attributed to knocking into furniture.

With the way the fight was in every corner of the room but the door, I have to conclude only one attacker. I find it hard to believe three people couldn't keep MK from stumbling all over the room to get away from them.

There was the finger swipe of blood by the bed, there was the blood and hair on the floor by the window, there was the chair shoved in at the desk and then the most horrid blood trails by the wardrobe. The whole time, it appeared as if the attacker was trying to keep a hold on her head. And from the jab wounds under her chin, it appears that the attacker was struggling to maintain hold of her head. If he had a pocketknife or flick knife, I can imagine that he was trying to hold her head, which straggled her, and she got away, launched herself over by the desk, and he whipped out the knife and went right back at her, getting her to the floor by the window, where her hair is smeared in the blood. Maybe. That's if she was strangled. Or the strangling was a sideaffect of trying so hard to hold her head still with the knife against her throat. She had bad bruising on the back of her head from where he'd been literally pulling her hair out. Some scalp came out with the hair. This is why I think he was trying to control her with just his hands first and then had to pull out the knife.

For some reason, I just think she made RG mad when she wouldn't give him a chance to BS he way out of it. He could have grabbed her in the living room and did all the bruising to her face. She got away and ran to her room. he whipped out of the knife and chased her. He might have got a knick on her before she got to her room, and that's why there's blood on her inside door handle, cause she held the wound and ran into her room and tried to lock the door. He probably burst in there, and Then I think he got even more angry when he couldn't keep control over her physically, which made him stab her hard. I think the first two cuts were "accidents" in the struggle. Then I think he probably didn't realize that he'd mortally wounded her until he rolled her over for the final power enforcement of rape. Then in the middle of that, it dawned on him that she was dying and he aborted the rape, tried to wipe up some of his footprints on the floor in there with the towel, cleaned his foot or whatever in the bathroom, dumped her purse into his bag and got the heck out of there.

Maybe he thought someone would return home and save her. Who knows.

My point is that I just don't see how three people can fair, vying for control of her head, as it seems the attacker was trying to do. Someone had a serious grip on her chin, and I don't see how there's enough room for that, for someone strangling AND someone holding a knife and jabbing at the same time. That also begs the question of who's holding her arms and legs.

An attack with three on one with her unable to fight at all doesn't seem like it would happen vertically, but horizontally instead. If that's the case, what's with the struggle all over the room? if she's strapped down by them on the floor, there would be no struggle all the way over by the window, nor would there be a need to drag her into that final position. She'd already be in it. Otherwise, how do three, while standing, subdue her limbs and her head? And if successful, why the fight pattern all over the room? If unsuccessful, why no evidence of the other two that proves they were unsuccessful?

I suppose AK and RS could have been elsewhere when RG's advances became violent. He tried to restrain and choke her, then AK or RS rushed in with a knife, but I have to wonder what on earth would make either or both of them do that if RG started the confrontation with AK's friend and roommate. If either AK or RS started the row, then I'd have to ask what in the world would make RG get involved. And again, if AK or RS started it, why is there zero evidence of them but so much of RG?

I'm really trying to figure out a guilty scenario, but I can't. I just don't know.

For some reason, I just can't agree with Hendry that she was just sitting in her room and RG just walked up in there and started stabbing her just cause she was home. Something led to it.

Really good analysis!
The only chance I can figure for AK/RS involvement is if they were in the cottage at that time, but so stoned, they didn't react. Is this possible based on timelines for their whereabouts?

 

[SMK]

Really good analysis!
The only chance I can figure for AK/RS involvement is if they were in the cottage at that time, but so stoned, they didn't react. Is this possible based on timelines for their whereabouts?

That was the only scenario of their involvement that ever made sense to me, also. If this were the case, it would be some kind of negligence or manslaughter, not murder. Obviously the timeline could be viewed as supporting this to some degree. But how solid is the proof?

ETA: I was just re-reading an old true crime story about the murder of a yachting couple on an island in 1974, by another couple, two young hippies who were staying on the island. In the end, they found him guilty but not her. Could not prove she actually was aware, and involved. Parallel to AK and RS, now that i have them in mind....

 

[OldSteve]

That was the only scenario of their involvement that ever made sense to me, also. If this were the case, it would be some kind of negligence or manslaughter, not murder. Obviously the timeline could be viewed as supporting this to some degree. But how solid is the proof?

ETA: I was just re-reading an old true crime story about the murder of a yachting couple on an island in 1974, by another couple, two young hippies who were staying on the island. In the end, they found him guilty but not her. Could not prove she actually was aware, and involved. Parallel to AK and RS, now that i have them in mind....

Wonder if there would even be negligence if someone was in the same house while someone was being killed, but too inebriated or stoned to realize what was happening - would be like they were sleeping while someone was murdered...

I've though that AK/RS might fit this scenario - and realized the next day that what they thought they dreamed actually happened... and then figured, lots-of-luck trying to explain this to authorities... still, the fact that AK didn't run home, actually has me believing she wasn't at the cottage at all while the crime took place...

 

[SMK]

Wonder if there would even be negligence if someone was in the same house while someone was being killed, but too inebriated or stoned to realize what was happening - would be like they were sleeping while someone was murdered...

I've though that AK/RS might fit this scenario - and realized the next day that what they thought they dreamed actually happened... and then figured, lots-of-luck trying to explain this to authorities... still, the fact that AK didn't run home, actually has me believing she wasn't at the cottage at all while the crime took place...

I have wondered, too, if this occurred....and also questioned if their not fleeing may be the greatest sign of "consciousness of innocence"....it will soon be over, or nearly over, if you look to the high court phase ....:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Latest from Mr. Bruce Fisher:

John Follain Delays Release of Book About Amanda Knox

Reporter John Follain’s publisher Hodder & Stoughton has delayed the release of his book about the Amanda Knox case for the third time since it first graced Amazon’s UK website. The publisher touts “Death in Perugia” as the “Definitive account of Italy’s Murder of the Century”.

But will “Death in Perugia” ever see the light of day.? Originally slated to be released as early as January 7, 2010, the release has now been pushed back to March 15, 2012.

http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Prosecution-Lackey-John-Follain-Delays-Release-of-/2940978

 

[SMK]

Another recent Bruce Fisher piece: When read in its entirety, very relevant to Knox /Sollecito:

What do the West Memphis Three and Amanda Knox Have in Common?


[. . . ]
The thought of spending 18 years in a cage for a crime you did not commit is enough to make anyone sick but the long timeframe also played a factor in the West Memphis Three’s freedom. The deal to release the three was made possible by DNA testing that showed definitive proof that they were not present at the crime scene. Testing of this nature was not available in 1993. The newfound DNA evidence prompted the Arkansas Supreme Court to schedule a hearing in November to take another look at the case. Thankfully that hearing will no longer be necessary.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have spent nearly 4 years in prison for a crime they did not commit. On appeal the court has finally heard from independent experts regarding crucial DNA evidence. The defense request for independent testing was refused by Judge Giancarlo Massei in the first trial. If Massei would have allowed an independent review, Knox and Sollecito would have never been convicted in the first place.

http://www.groundreport.com/Business/What-do-the-West-Memphis-Three-and-Amanda-Knox-hav/2940932

 

[SMK]

@OldSteve:With regard to what you were saying yesterday, about AK and RS perhaps being stoned and hearing Guede attack Meredith and in the morning realizing that it was not a dream: I don't know if you ever saw the film Girl Interrupted with Winona Ryder, Angelina Jolie, and Brittany Murphy, but it was a true story. In one scene W and A leave the mental hospital and go visit B, who was released and is living in a house bought for her by her father. She is kind of rude to them, and the Angelina Jolie character gets upset, while the Winona Ryder character is tired and goes off to sleep on the couch. She can hear Jolie attacking the Brittany character for hours, telling her that she knows her father molested her, and has bought her the house as a pay off, to shut her up. WR tosses and turns on the couch, muttering "please shut up" from time to time, but does nothing, as the verbal attack continues. In the morning, the B Murphy character has hung herself, and Winona feels guilty that she did nothing, but it is not considered a crime when they call the police to report the suicide. Just got me thinking, as it is a true story, about how one can not realize how bad something is getting until it is too late.....

ETA: In any case I believe there is much reasonable doubt, and that the convictions should be overturned. Each time I read the logic of forums which believe the opposite, I become more and more convinced.

 

[ChasingMoxie]

ETA: I was just re-reading an old true crime story about the murder of a yachting couple on an island in 1974, by another couple, two young hippies who were staying on the island. In the end, they found him guilty but not her. Could not prove she actually was aware, and involved. Parallel to AK and RS, now that i have them in mind....

Vincent Bugliosi's And the Sea Will Tell, by any chance?

 

[otto]

Well I don't see the argument of time of death as logical if the range is 9:30pm - 1:30am to be exactly 9:30. But I understand why that is proposed.

The time of death has to be between 9 and 12:15. 9 is when she arrived at home, and 12:15 is when he cell phones bounced off a tower near the garden where they were found the following morning (Meredith's father called at that time). There isn't really anything to narrow down that time, so it's all speculation.

 

[SMK]

Vincent Bugliosi's And the Sea Will Tell, by any chance?

That's the one!

 

[SMK]

The time of death has to be between 9 and 12:15. 9 is when she arrived at home, and 12:15 is when he cell phones bounced off a tower near the garden where they were found the following morning (Meredith's father called at that time). There isn't really anything to narrow down that time, so it's all speculation.

Right, TOD could be as early as 9:20 pm, and there can be no basis for insisting it has to be later......

 

[sherlockh]

Right, TOD could be as early as 9:20 pm, and there can be no basis for insisting it has to be later......

A strange thing to say when there is the judges report which explains all the reasons and what they base the TOD on. Saying there is no basis is ignoring the analysis of dr. Lalli, several professors and consultants and the judges. They conclude TOD was around 11-11:30pm. It also so happened that around that time an extremely loud scream was heard by 2 witnesses. I think it is not so strange to think that was Meredith.

It is stated several times in the report that just basing the TOD on digestion is not reliable. Stretching the TOD to 9pm is done only by a few conspiracy theorists on the internet so it would seem that Meredith was attacked right after she came home. However, we also know that she ate a mushroom after she got home and probably drank something like a glass of wine, so such a scenario isn't possible anyway.

Professor Umani Ronchi testified that digestion is determined by a whole series of absolutely individual conditions and that these are not constant even for the same person. Moreover, he added that the stomach may need three, four, five, or even more, hours to empty itself (hearing on September 19, 2009).

Professor Norelli: With regard to the gastric contents, he stressed that this finding could not be used conveniently to establish the time of death, due to the variability of digestion times, both from the physiological point of view and because of situations which may cause variability of these [digestion] times.

 

[wasnt_me]

Really good analysis!
The only chance I can figure for AK/RS involvement is if they were in the cottage at that time, but so stoned, they didn't react. Is this possible based on timelines for their whereabouts?

Honestly, all i can think is that AK might have gone home to get clothes and stuff since they had a trip the next day. RS didn't want her to walk alone because it was dark, so he drove her. They arrived, maybe spent time in the house and discovered blood etc while they were getting stoned. Maybe they didn't see the window because the door was closed and MK's door was closed but not locked. They might have eventually opened MK's door because they realized they hadn't seen her for a couple hours and it was getting later. Then they saw the murder, flipped out, locked the door and got the heck out of there. Its possible that RG was in the vacinty, returning to check out the crime scene and saw them running out of there.

That's all I can think of.

I can't think of a scenario, where AK knows she has to work that night, that she can somehow meet up with RG between 815pm and 840pm (850pm at least if she was talking to RS's friend at the house) to hook up with RG and escalate a murder by 930pm. RS can arrive later on, but at least AK has to be there.

The murder must happen by 10pm or the phones do not have enough time to get to the garden by 1013pm. Unless the prosecution is right and the defense is wrong that the phone wasn't in the garden at 1013pm.

Also the scenario has to include a need for AK and RS and RG to keep themselves separated into two camps for all this time, meaning no one has rolled over on anyone in all this time, and the closest one of them got was saying he saw someone who looked like RS and "heard" Ak's voice, after months and months of exposure to media-based "facts." I just can't believe that if AK didn't participate, but saw RG, she wouldn't have told that. Why after all this time isn't RS saying the hell with Ak and RG, so he can get out of jail?

I don't know. T

 

[wasnt_me]

I choose to no longer debate the time of death as long as the same arguments are being presented. We have all heard the exact same arguments for it and against being at certain times. Without any new information offered from the prosecution, I choose to believe the defense's version of TOD.