Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[Allusonz]

Only one problem: without a confirmatory lab test, which PS could have and should have used but inexplicably didn't, there is no 'probability', only a vague 'possibility' that includes a huge number of other 'possibles'. Sorry, the good Doctor blew it, and lost the opportunity to truthfully state that it was 'probably' blood. That she said it was so anyway says much about her dedication to the ethics of her profession.

I must agree again. Boy did she ever!!!

 

[Fulcanelli]

I must agree again. Boy did she ever!!!

Are we talking about C & V who found DNA on the blade of the knife but didn't bother to extract a profile?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I believe this autopsy was recorded thus all experts were able to review this and some very specific information was able to be determined which is often not the case.

First there was no abnormal pathology. Second the UK friends testified as to the time the meal started and what the meal consisted of. The stomach contents confirmed what was testified to by the UK friends. As well it was confirmed there was no slippage of duodeum meaning that the food had not reached that point. All the experts stated 2 - 3 hours even Dr. Lalli with one stating slippage by 4 hours. There also was no alchohol consumed which would slow the digestion. They continued to watch a movie which actually speeds digestion. I have posted this many times and can again if it would help

Yeah, and Curatolo testified he saw Raffaele and Amanda in the park beginning at 9:29.

 

[Allusonz]

A trial is not a science lab. It has different requirements and scientific tests is not the be all and end all. For example, the witness that saw someone point the gun at someone and pull the trigger constitutes as just as good evidence as the ballistic test that showed the gun and path of the round and indeed, can be used in lieu of such a test. What I'm saying is, other contextual evidence that isn't scientific evidence, can help validate another piece of evidence that is.

It's not always possible to weigh everything up with a test tube, in fact it often isn't and courts tend to work with what they've got.

Just for example. You may argue, well...is it proven absolutely that the prints are in blood? A court will ask...how probable is it that they aren't in blood? And in asking that question, they will also factor in other contextual exidence, like the fact that the visible print on the bath mat is blood...the victim's blood was in abundance in the cottage...the tests (luminol) were performed long after other reactants (such as bleach) would have dissipated, neither were there luminol prints all over the place (as one would expect, if there was some reactant that wasn't blood commonly present in the cottage). Therefore, how high is the probability that they weren't in blood? Do you see the court's position?

To some degree I must state that I am not of the same opinion. In many trials there is often alot of technical information presented.

In the trial of the first instance the jury (trying like SV not to laugh) i mean lay judges did not even require a grade 12 education yet they are expected to understand the difference which involves various science such as pathologists, ballistic experts, DNA experts which in this case included LCN DNA contrary to some of the testimony of Stephanoni. For the common individual this information can be overwhelming to the point that it has been even suggested in threads on this website that professional jurors are considered

There have even been suggestions that criminal judges and lawyers start receiving training in some aspects of DNA etc in many countries

 

[Allusonz]

Yeah, and Curatolo testified he saw Raffaele and Amanda in the park beginning at 9:29.

There is also computer evidence showing that the cartoon was accessed as well this is in RS's appeal.

It appears that Curatolo mistook his evenings and was actually speaking of the evening of the 31st which I am quite sure you have seen the testimony of in the appeal. Not to even get to his drug use

 

[Allusonz]

I was misinformed by several articles, in which they clearly said ,"Hellman and the jury"....thanks for the clarification...

You were not misinformed SMK, we have used both terms interchanging here as after this amount of time I believe most do know that have followed this case that the Italians call them Lay Judges. There was a general agreement here after some exchanges that we all for the most part knew the difference.

 

[Allusonz]

Fulcanelli,

With respect to the luminol prints, please provide a link which shows that Amanda's lawyers accept that the prints are hers. RoseMontague showed one of the luminol prints in a side-by-side comparison to Amanda's and the second toe is not even close to being close.

RoseMontague quoted the charge given to Rinaldi in thread 17: ""Carry out all tests designed to compare the fingerprints found on footwear
in the survey with the imprints of shoes seizure, and to compare
plantar imprints taken to suspects, in the course of inspection personnel, Knox, Sollecito and Guede with fingerprints found on the plantar pad of the bathroom adjoining the room where it is was found the corpse of Meredith Kercher, and those highlighted by the Luminol. Find, finally, the compatibility or otherwise of fingerprints with those taken in plantar. At the inspection body, and anything else necessary in the interests of justice." Even Garofano noted the lack of reference footprints from the other flatmates.

No one who looked at the tread patterns of the two shoes should mistake Raffaele's for Rudi's or vice versa.

I would also like to note that AK's and RS's footprints were not even taken till May of 2008 IIRC. What are the odds that both of them would have such unusual footprints? I bet PLE did not even think of this at the time

 

[SkewedView]

Are we talking about C & V who found DNA on the blade of the knife but didn't bother to extract a profile?

They didn't continue to do the testing because the results would have been meaningless at best. Profiles extracted from extremely low count samples are notoriously unreliable and open to gross misinterpretation. That there is a divide between scientists who feel that their ethics don't allow for the use of dubious evidence in criminal trials, while others think it's just peachy, shows how badly corrupted some of the Forensic Science community has become.

This isn't just me talking here - all of the major Accrediting Societies of Forensic Scientists have been growing increasingly alarmed by abuses in their various fields, and are seeking ways to counter them. In the meantime, questionable science continues to be used to imprison people unjustly in the name of furthering careers.

 

[Allusonz]

Fulcanelli,

The hazmat suits that some of the police wore have booties that are just extensions of the leg material. Hard to see how those got changed as the police moved from one place to the next. There is also the luminol-positive material that was on one set of boots and the ruler, as seen in some recently posted pictures. Are you claiming that the blobs in Filomena's room are actually Amanda's or Raffaele's footprints? If so, please provide a link.

I must agree here. It was quite a performance that enabled the experts to see so many critical errors I am quite thankful for that

 

[Allusonz]

'Should', if it's an option, but it isn't a requirement. In this case there wasn't enough material, since the traces were small to begin with and what was there was needed for DNA testing. Like I said, this isn't the lab, this is the real world.

Yet tested in a regular uncertified DNA lab. Not even tested in an LCN DNA environment using methodolody never written about previously in any scientific literature. :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

It can remain there for up to 20 hours.

You're not still going on about this stomach content thing? Are you a scientist, or are you about faith? Stomach content is a pseudo science and is virtually useless in forensic pathology, doubly so in a court of law.

Could I see a cite please? With normal pathology? Regarding specifically slippage into the duodeum?

 

[Allusonz]

Do you have any evidence they were paid? If not, I see no point in continuing this thread of discussion. I don't do the conspiraloon stuff.

Is it being suggested that the state employees such as Mignini are not being paid? How would he support his large family?

 

[Malkmus]

Yeah, and Curatolo testified he saw Raffaele and Amanda in the park beginning at 9:29.

On the wrong night.

 

[SkewedView]

Yet tested in a regular uncertified DNA lab. Not even tested in an LCN DNA environment using methodolody never written about previously in any scientific literature. :giggle:

To be honest, after doing some research, I found that while PS used a combination of techniques that was unique, she did seem to be attempting to replicate a variety of (at the time) brand new techniques used in studies and 'bleeding edge' labs of the time, one after another, to try to get the results that she desired. Was that reckless, given the lack of study into the viability of those techniques, especially in combination with each other? Yes. Does it look...suspicious, or at least unprofessional? To enough people to present a potential problem, yes. Was it a sign of criminal behavior? Probably not.

The holes in the paper trail and testimony that directly contradicted her own records that were done...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms (I'm leaning towards plain old sloppiness due to overwork and too much pressure from above to get the results that her bosses wanted - call me sentimental, but I'm back to doubting malign intent here).

 

[Allusonz]

Meredith Kercher wasn't in a coma. I don't see anything that would elongate the emptying of her stomach between the start of her meal at 6 and when she arrived home at 9.

Must agree with you Malkmus. I see nothing here that would prevent slippage and we do know that it was tied off appropriately. Even the experts agreed with Dr. Lalli

 

[Allusonz]

To be honest, after doing some research, I found that while PS used a combination of techniques that was unique, she did seem to be attempting to replicate a variety of (at the time) brand new techniques used in studies and 'bleeding edge' labs of the time, one after another, to try to get the results that she desired. Was that reckless, given the lack of study into the viability of those techniques, especially in combination with each other? Yes. Does it look...suspicious, or at least unprofessional? To enough people to present a potential problem, yes. Was it a sign of criminal behavior? Probably not.

The holes in the paper trail and testimony that directly contradicted her own records that were done...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms (I'm leaning towards plain old sloppiness due to overwork and too much pressure from above to get the results that her bosses wanted - call me sentimental, but I'm back to doubting malign intent here).

I must agree that what I have seen mostly is just simply undertrained, inexperience for the most part. Where I will not let her off is with respect to perjury.

 

[Allusonz]

Your question wasn't to me, but to posit an answer. If someone broke in, it wouldn't be a problem (in terms of luminol). They'd have to bleed all over the place. Not impossible, but...sort of unlikely.

Is it then being stated that we should keep the bad guys on the street just so it is brighter at 6 weeks? That would be ridiculous

 

[SkewedView]

I must agree that what I have seen mostly is just simply undertrained, inexperience for the most part. Where I will not let her off is with respect to perjury.

Familiarity breeds contempt. It is a common ailment of chronic state's witnesses (LEOs, squints, criminal psychologists etc) - they get so used to being taken at their word as a given, and so invested in helping to gain convictions (often, if not nearly all the time, for the best of reasons), that they eventually start on the slippery slope of 'it's just a little white lie', 'it's just an exaggeration', 'it's all in the name of justice' etc...it's so common that there is a term coined for it: Testa-Lying.

 

[Allusonz]

Sorry all I blew my promise to self to limit my posts. In fact I tossed it right out to space :giggle:

 

[Malkmus]

Familiarity breeds contempt. It is a common ailment of chronic state's witnesses (LEOs, squints, criminal psychologists etc) - they get so used to being taken at their word as a given, and so invested in helping to gain convictions (often, if not nearly all the time, for the best of reasons), that they eventually start on the slippery slope of 'it's just a little white lie', 'it's just an exaggeration', 'it's all in the name of justice' etc...it's so common that there is a term coined for it: Testa-Lying.

I think particularly with this case, they didn't expect the high level of scrutiny that they're work has fallen under.