Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[otto]

~Respectfully snipped~

From your link, I found this quote (emphasis added):

"Prosecution consultant Giuseppe Novelli struck back at the independent experts, saying they could have and should have retested the material still present on the blade, as their mandate allowed them to do."

And my jaw dropped. I thought that was a major part of this appeal. Retesting the blade? Wasn't there talk of removing the handle and all kinds of things? It seems really stange to me that they didn't retest. The argument is that there is too little material to retest, but now that is being disputed.

Oh my goodness....... :waitasec:

Just surprised me. :crazy:

Salem

That seems to be what happened. The Rome Experts found DNA on the blade and had the specific machines and facilities to test it. Instead, they decided not to attempt to identify the DNA because it was low number count DNA. The Rome Experts also agreed that the previous test done by Dr Stefanoni, which was a match (with low peaks on the readout), could be a match to Meredith. As it stands, the Rome Experts have not said that the DNA on the blade of the knife did not belong to Meredith, but have rather argued that it was LNC DNA and too small to test ... but they didn't try to test it. Judge Hellman asked them to review European Protocols regarding LNC DNA, but they did not do this. Instead they referenced something called "International Protocols", which do not exist. It is of interest to note that the Knox advocates that objected to the DNA have referenced "International Protocols".

In terms of explaining the knife blade DNA that was identified by Dr Stefanoni as a match to Meredith, the Rome Experts suggested that contamination could have occurred. However, during the hearings in early July, it was revealed that the testing of the DNA on the knife blade was done several days after any other DNA from the scene was tested, making it rather impossible that there were still trace elements of the DNA on the machines. It has not been suggested that there was cross contamination in the lab, only that the machines could have been dirty. Given the time lapse between when the knife DNA was tested and other related evidence was tested, dirty machines have pretty much been ruled out. The only other place for contamination would be during collection, but Meredith had never been to Sollecito's apartment, so there is no possibility that it was contaminated at the apartment. This pretty much rules out contamination.

Essentially, that leaves the DNA test that was done by Dr Stefanoni, and that was matched to Meredith's DNA. The Rome Experts had the opportunity to test a small sample that they found, but they didn't do it. It's possible that the prosecution will appeal to have this sample tested.

 

[Allusonz]

~Respectfully snipped~

From your link, I found this quote (emphasis added):

"Prosecution consultant Giuseppe Novelli struck back at the independent experts, saying they could have and should have retested the material still present on the blade, as their mandate allowed them to do."

And my jaw dropped. I thought that was a major part of this appeal. Retesting the blade? Wasn't there talk of removing the handle and all kinds of things? It seems really stange to me that they didn't retest. The argument is that there is too little material to retest, but now that is being disputed.

Oh my goodness....... :waitasec:

Just surprised me. :crazy:

Salem

One important thing here is forgotten. The first being that the knife tested negative for blood for both Stephanoni and the experts. If the knife tested negative for blood yet postive for starch this means the knife was not cleaned as had been proposed by the prosecution.

You would eliminate biological traces before you would eliminate the ability to detect blood if it was cleaned. The other thing to remember is the amount of DNA found by Stephanoni was well below 50 rfu. We are probably talking 10 picograms or less. If there was something on the knife the only way it could of got there was from contamination as pointed out by the experts.

You can find the expert report here:

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/

 

[RoseMontague]

It's unfortunate that the Rome Experts did not test the sample from the knife even though they got a sample and had the facilities to test it. They claimed it was too small, did not attempt to identify the sample and simply dismissed it. Instead, they focused on some starch and felt that was worth testing. Furthermore, Judge Hellman requested that the Experts review LNCDNA analysis as it is conducted in Europe. They didn't do this, and instead referred to some non-existent international protocols. I see problems with the DNA Report and indeed several of those are being discussed in the appeal. Instead of the focus remaining on the evidence, it appears that the Rome Experts would like to discuss DNA analysis theory - in some respects, it appears that they are trying to discredit their own profession.

I am not sure where you are getting your information. Hellman's instructions say nothing about Europe standards. There are no standards anywhere for the collection, handling, and testing of LCN DNA that Stefanoni followed to any degree that this result could be considered reliable.

 

[RoseMontague]

The video shows the downstairs police break in actually occurred on 2 November. The interesting thing is Mignini and Stefanoni were observing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

That seems to be what happened. The Rome Experts found DNA on the blade and had the specific machines and facilities to test it. Instead, they decided not to attempt to identify the DNA because it was low number count DNA. The Rome Experts also agreed that the previous test done by Dr Stefanoni, which was a match (with low peaks on the readout), could be a match to Meredith. As it stands, the Rome Experts have not said that the DNA on the blade of the knife did not belong to Meredith, but have rather argued that it was LNC DNA and too small to test ... but they didn't try to test it. Judge Hellman asked them to review European Protocols regarding LNC DNA, but they did not do this. Instead they referenced something called "International Protocols", which do not exist. It is of interest to note that the Knox advocates that objected to the DNA have referenced "International Protocols".

In terms of explaining the knife blade DNA that was identified by Dr Stefanoni as a match to Meredith, the Rome Experts suggested that contamination could have occurred. However, during the hearings in early July, it was revealed that the testing of the DNA on the knife blade was done several days after any other DNA from the scene was tested, making it rather impossible that there were still trace elements of the DNA on the machines. It has not been suggested that there was cross contamination in the lab, only that the machines could have been dirty. Given the time lapse between when the knife DNA was tested and other related evidence was tested, dirty machines have pretty much been ruled out. The only other place for contamination would be during collection, but Meredith had never been to Sollecito's apartment, so there is no possibility that it was contaminated at the apartment. This pretty much rules out contamination.

Essentially, that leaves the DNA test that was done by Dr Stefanoni, and that was matched to Meredith's DNA. The Rome Experts had the opportunity to test a small sample that they found, but they didn't do it. It's possible that the prosecution will appeal to have this sample tested.

otto,

In which cases of DNA contamination is the exact route and moment of contamination known and in which cases is it unknown? If more of Raffaele's DNA had been found in Meredith's room, would the prosecution be conceding now that contamination could have happened with respect to the clasp? If DNA can persist for years on evidence samples, then why is the alleged six-day gap significant? Given the number of stories the prosecution has presented with respect to negative controls, why should we believe what they have to say about this gap, anyway?

Contamination may have occurred when the second officer, who had just been to the girls' flat, handled the knife. Given the lack of blood on the knife and the presence of starch, contamination is the most reasonable explanation.

 

[SMK]

It seems Comodi believes Hellman is against the prosecution, and is preparing for high court:

Knox will be freed, says prosecutor
Nick Pisa in Perugia
7 Sep 2011

A prosecutor in the Amanda Knox case has predicted the American will be acquitted of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher.

Knox's appeal lawyers again contested crucial DNA evidence yesterday and Manuela Comodi told the Standard she is convinced Knox will be freed.

Knox, 24, is serving 26 years for the murder of Miss Kercher, 21, of Surrey, who was found semi-naked with her throat slashed in the bedroom of the house she shared with Knox and two other women in November 2007.

Knox's former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 27, was also convicted of murdering and sexually assaulting Meredith and he is serving 25 years. Both say they had nothing to do with the killing.

Ms Comodi said: "There is an ill wind blowing in this case. The judge and his assistant are clearly against us. I can see both Knox and Sollecito being freed which will be a shame as they are both involved."

Today Ms Comodi is expected to ask for a second review of the DNA evidence after court-appointed experts condemned the original forensic investigation.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23984490-knox-will-be-freed-says-prosecutor.do

I think it is actually unbelievable that she said this to the press, about the Judge, while court proceedings are ongoing. Just shocking....IMO:waitasec:

Associated Press
Knox trial: Jury rejects DNA request
By ALESSANDRA RIZZO , 09.07.11, 07:26 AM EDT

PERUGIA, Italy -- An Italian appeals court has rejected a prosecutors' request for new DNA testing in the appeals trial of Amanda Knox, saying it would be unneccessary after lengthy discussion over genetic evidence.

The decision Wednesday by Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann opens the way for closing arguments, which are set to begin on Sept. 23 with the prosecution. A verdict is expected by month's end.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/09/07/general-eu-italy-knox_8662380.html

 

[SMK]

Yup, they are running with that quote now...

'An ill wind is blowing': Now even PROSECUTOR says Foxy Knoxy will be freed
By NICK PISA
Last updated at 1:20 PM on 7th September 2011

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...UTOR-says-Foxy-Knoxy-freed.html#ixzz1XGk9Vlsy

 

[SMK]

Amanda Knox Wins Another Round in Her Murder Appeal

http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda-knox-wins-round-italian-court/story?id=14462692

Knox prosecutors lose bid for new DNA review

A judge in Perugia, Italy, in the murder appeal case involving American Amanda Knox is rejecting the prosecution's call for new DNA assessments and has adjourned proceedings until Sept. 23, CNN is reporting.

That is when final arguments will begin, according to CNN.

So no court until closings the week of the 23rd - 30, with all the closings and rebuttal,
Prosecution/civil close
Knox/Sollecito close
rebuttal
and then the verdict.....O...K.....

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...or-new-dna-review-in-knox-appeal/1?csp=34news

 

[For The Kids]

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16064570

from the link

The appeal judge in Amanda Knox's appeal against her murder conviction has rejected a request to re-examine evidence.
The American was jailed in 2009 for killing British student Meredith Kercher.

Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann said the case is now closed and has adjourned the trial until September 23 for a final summing up.

More to follow ...



The Kerchers will be pleased anyhow I read the article the other day from Merediths sister...simply heartbreaking

 

[RoseMontague]

Yup, they are running with that quote now...



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...UTOR-says-Foxy-Knoxy-freed.html#ixzz1XGk9Vlsy

You go chasing after the white whale, you are going to get some ill winds.

It is amusing how both Comodi and Mignini let their mouths run out of control.

 

[SMK]

You go chasing after the white whale, you are going to get some ill winds.

It is amusing how both Comodi and Mignini let their mouths run out of control.

I think so, too. But it is really weird how PMF is hailing all this as a victory for the prosecution..:waitasec:...I cannot wait until this wraps. It is clear that Hellman wants it to be over, and one way or the other, the case seems decided....

 

[sherlockh]

You go chasing after the white whale, you are going to get some ill winds.

It is amusing how both Comodi and Mignini let their mouths run out of control.

Why is that amusing? It would be pretty stupid if she said these things. Not that I trust Nick Pisa by the way.

Today was another good day for the prosecution. Consultants Gino and Torre were hardly asked any questions, and nobody seemed very interested in those 2.

The rejection of the retest request was expected. The prosecution made their point that C&V didn't do their job very well. Point well taken by Hellman but he needs to move on at this stage. I can't blame him.

It is weird to see how reporters are choosing the sensational line in this case. Where Knox being released would be sensational so that is the most interesting thing to write about. Whether she killed another human being is of secondary value. It is really sad. IMO.

In the mean time, the rest of the evidence that I was told could be reviewed is not being reviewed but I guess that is not important anymore I will patiently wait till the verdict comes out. Until then kudos to Hellman for not allowing any further delays in this case.

 

[SMK]

Why is that amusing? It would be pretty stupid if she said these things. Not that I trust Nick Pisa by the way.

Today was another good day for the prosecution. Consultants Gino and Torre were hardly asked any questions, and nobody seemed very interested in those 2.

The rejection of the retest request was expected. The prosecution made their point that C&V didn't do their job very well. Point well taken by Hellman but he needs to move on at this stage. I can't blame him.

It is weird to see how reporters are choosing the sensational line in this case. Where Knox being released would be sensational so that is the most interesting thing to write about. Whether she killed another human being is of secondary value. It is really sad. IMO.

In the mean time, the rest of the evidence that I was told could be reviewed is not being reviewed but I guess that is not important anymore I will patiently wait till the verdict comes out. Until then kudos to Hellman for not allowing any further delays in this case.

I am also patiently awaiting the verdict.

I agree with you; Kudos to Hellman, and it is premature to say that Hellman's wrapping all up is a victory for the defense or the prosecution. I am glad it will soon be over.

One way or the other, I think Hellman and the jury have made their decision, and are just going through the formal closing....

I think the press would assume acquittal would mean she did NOT kill another human being....

 

[SMK]

From Italy, Umbria News Release Sep 7:

Meredith, the Court says no to new valuations:
Closed hearing, it goes to the ruling

http://www.umbria24.it/meredith-la-...battimento-si-va-verso-la-sentenza/57786.html

And so good to see that last sentence below, what a relief!

"The renewal of expertise is unnecessary, regardless of whether there are gaps highlighted by the attorney general and shared by the plaintiffs," he said in the classroom President of the Court then considered the investigation closed hearing and postponed the trial to September 23, when there is the beginning of the indictment by the attorney general. Other hearings have already been 'fixed for 24, 26 and 27 September next to the pleadings of the parties and civil defense, followed by the sentence of the second degree. A prosecution request to overturn the opinion and findings of DNA given by the experts of the Court of Appeals which had rejected the analysis of Patrizia Stefanoni biologist who contributed to the conviction at first instance of two former findanzati for the murder of English girl. Also rejected the request of the Prosecutor General in the courtroom to hear the witness Aviello Luciano. The former employee of Justice would be called in court to assert that he took money from the family urge to seek his release. The Court of Appeals declared the hearing closed.

http://www.tmnews.it/web/sezioni/top10/20110907_151736.shtml


I guess it is safe to assume that Sep 23 and 24 will be the closings, with the week of Mon 25 wrapping the closings, doing the rebuttal, and then the verdict.

 

[sherlockh]

I am also patiently awaiting the verdict.

I agree with you; Kudos to Hellman, and it is premature to say that Hellman's wrapping all up is a victory for the defense or the prosecution. I am glad it will soon be over.

One way or the other, I think Hellman and the jury have made their decision, and are just going through the formal closing....

I think the press would assume acquittal would mean she did NOT kill another human being....

Not necessarily. Especially when acquittal is based on technical errors. My point was merely that the media hardly ever write about the possibility that 'she did it'. It is always Knox or Mellas with their opinions, cute baby pics of Amanda, Meredith in her vampire costume with fake blood on her lips, and the blackest picture of Rudy they can find. It is never really objective IMO.

If Hellman is a good judge and I am sure he is then he will listen with an open mind to the closing arguments. I doubt he has made up his mind already as that wouldn't be fair. He probably has an idea though about which piece of evidence he will allow and where he will focus on when he will make his decision.

 

[SMK]

Not necessarily. Especially when acquittal is based on technical errors. My point was merely that the media hardly ever write about the possibility that 'she did it'. It is always Knox or Mellas with their opinions, cute baby pics of Amanda, Meredith in her vampire costume with fake blood on her lips, and the blackest picture of Rudy they can find. It is never really objective IMO.

If Hellman is a good judge and I am sure he is then he will listen with an open mind to the closing arguments. I doubt he has made up his mind already as that wouldn't be fair. He probably has an idea though about which piece of evidence he will allow and where he will focus on when he will make his decision.

I think the "judgement intuitive" is always there, from the beginning, with a good judge. But of course he will carefully review all, and reflect. I think Hellman is a very good judge. And I think one way or the other, he has already seen the greater picture of things.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Not necessarily. Especially when acquittal is based on technical errors. My point was merely that the media hardly ever write about the possibility that 'she did it'. It is always Knox or Mellas with their opinions, cute baby pics of Amanda, Meredith in her vampire costume with fake blood on her lips, and the blackest picture of Rudy they can find. It is never really objective IMO.

If Hellman is a good judge and I am sure he is then he will listen with an open mind to the closing arguments. I doubt he has made up his mind already as that wouldn't be fair. He probably has an idea though about which piece of evidence he will allow and where he will focus on when he will make his decision.

sherlockh,

I am sympathetic to anyone who objects to being manipulated via photographs. However, consider the cover of Darkness Descending. The pictures of Raffaele and Amanda are unflattering; they look shifty and worthy of suspicion. Nowhere to be found is Rudi's picture.

I also recall reading in these last few days that one of the newspapers tried to make it seem as if Amanda were winking at Raffaele. Hmm....

 

[Sonata]

Not necessarily. Especially when acquittal is based on technical errors. My point was merely that the media hardly ever write about the possibility that 'she did it'. It is always Knox or Mellas with their opinions, cute baby pics of Amanda, Meredith in her vampire costume with fake blood on her lips, and the blackest picture of Rudy they can find. It is never really objective IMO.

If Hellman is a good judge and I am sure he is then he will listen with an open mind to the closing arguments. I doubt he has made up his mind already as that wouldn't be fair. He probably has an idea though about which piece of evidence he will allow and where he will focus on when he will make his decision.

I guess that's the US twist on it... I assume you're US based? The UK press has generally been a lot harsher to Knox and a lot less focussed on Rudy at all. Needless to say Rafaelle gets almost zero press as seems to be the pattern elsewhere...

I haven't seen any Knox baby photos over here, aside form my own internet research. I guess the Knox family care less about being in contact with UK press?

Certainly, the UK press have no qualms about coming from the paradigm of 'she did it'.

ETA, what do you mean by the 'blackest' picture of Rudy? Do you mean in terms of how dark his skin looks in the photo? Bit confused.

 

[sherlockh]

I guess that's the US twist on it... I assume you're US based? The UK press has generally been a lot harsher to Knox and a lot less focussed on Rudy at all. Needless to say Rafaelle gets almost zero press as seems to be the pattern elsewhere...

I haven't seen any Knox baby photos over here, aside form my own internet research. I guess the Knox family care less about being in contact with UK press?

Certainly, the UK press have no qualms about coming from the paradigm of 'she did it'.

ETA, what do you mean by the 'blackest' picture of Rudy? Do you mean in terms of how dark his skin looks in the photo? Bit confused.

I don't think it matters much where I am based as I just get my information from the internet. But I am sure you are right that things are a bit different comparing US, UK and Italy.

There are different pics of Guede. In some pics he looks much darker than in others. I noticed some media have a preference for the darker looking Rudy then for the lighter version. I hope I am totally wrong on this.

 

[sherlockh]

sherlockh,

I am sympathetic to anyone who objects to being manipulated via photographs. However, consider the cover of Darkness Descending. The pictures of Raffaele and Amanda are unflattering; they look shifty and worthy of suspicion. Nowhere to be found is Rudi's picture.

I also recall reading in these last few days that one of the newspapers tried to make it seem as if Amanda were winking at Raffaele. Hmm....

That is true. Who was she winking at by the way?