Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[ohiogirl]

not so much, imo.

 

[ohiogirl]

the italian court seems to operate on a "guilty if you are here" basis, if you are innocent, let the appeal take care of it.
Bass ackwards if you ask me, although no one has, but I will say it anyway.
too bad for "foxy noxy", right?
This evil sex murder is a figment of someone's overactive imagination, imo.

 

[otto]

the italian court seems to operate on a "guilty if you are here" basis, if you are innocent, let the appeal take care of it.
Bass ackwards if you ask me, although no one has, but I will say it anyway.
too bad for "foxy noxy", right?
This evil sex murder is a figment of someone's overactive imagination, imo.

What do you mean by a "guilty if you are here? basis"? Do you mean that if someone gets as far as charged, convicted and in the appeal process, the Italian courts assumes guilt? There is a 50% change of verdict at the appeal court in Italy, but it's not always in favor of the convict. In the US, if someone gets as far as a conviction and appeal, how often is it changed. Certainly not 50% of the time.

"Foxy Knoxy" is always in the headlines with the dailymail.uk website. That's the sort of newsrag it is. I don't think anyone else puts that in the headlines, but other media draw attention to it to skew the perception that the murder of Meredith Kercher was all about a soccer nickname that didn't work out so well.

Meredith Kercher was involved in unlikely sexual interaction with Guede. He claims it was concentual, but it's not likely. It was not a sexual assault and was not classified as a rape. Evidence proved sexual contact and no more. Evidence in the cottage, during the murder and in court rulings suggests more than one attacker. The staged break-in suggests an inside job. The only possibility is Knox. Knox and Sollecito do not have alibis for the night of the murder, having both offered numerous lies or rubbish during the early investigation. They both lied about their activities on the morning that the murder was discovered - claiming they slept until 10 when computer and phone records prove otherwise. They attempted to have a roommate (Filomina) and her friends, rather than police, trample through the scene before reporting the break-in to police. It goes on and on, but there is no "evil sex murder [that] is a figment of someone's overactive imagination".

 

[otto]

... unless you're thinking about Dougie Preston ... who still thinks he has something to say with his novels about seedy, smokey cafes, sorcery sources, witches and crazy prosecutors that listen to voices on Hallowed Evening and All Saints Night. Surely no one is still interpreting this case through the eyes of a man that interfered with an unsolved serial murder investigation to get a story.

 

[SkewedView]

Otto:

Non-consensual sexual contact of any kind is rape/sexual assault.

 

[SkewedView]

Otto:

Just because the Judge didn't ask for additional testimony with regards to the other appeal issues, does not mean that he will accept the original court's interpretation of them. He has all of the transcripts etc from the original trial, including the refuting testimony. As such, he has all the material he needs to make his own judgments on those issues, without wasting court time on needless additional debates.

 

[Sonata]

Otto:

Just because the Judge didn't ask for additional testimony with regards to the other appeal issues, does not mean that he will accept the original court's interpretation of them. He has all of the transcripts etc from the original trial, including the refuting testimony. As such, he has all the material he needs to make his own judgments on those issues, without wasting court time on needless additional debates.

I can't say thank you enough for this post.

Besides the fact that as you say, any unconsensual sexual act is rape/assault, this case is CLEARLY such. A woman is found murdered, naked, with dna of a man inside her who is not her known sexual partner and was there at the time of attack - how is that NOT assault? It seems pretty clear cut to me personally.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Meredith Kercher was involved in unlikely sexual interaction with Guede. He claims it was concentual, but it's not likely. It was not a sexual assault and was not classified as a rape. Evidence proved sexual contact and no more. Evidence in the cottage, during the murder and in court rulings suggests more than one attacker. The staged break-in suggests an inside job. The only possibility is Knox. Knox and Sollecito do not have alibis for the night of the murder, having both offered numerous lies or rubbish during the early investigation. They both lied about their activities on the morning that the murder was discovered - claiming they slept until 10 when computer and phone records prove otherwise. They attempted to have a roommate (Filomina) and her friends, rather than police, trample through the scene before reporting the break-in to police. It goes on and on, but there is no "evil sex murder [that] is a figment of someone's overactive imagination".

otto,

Defense expert Carlo Torre thought it was a single attacker. The evidence of a staged break in is weak, IMO. Your statement that they attempted to have Filomena trample through does not make any sense to me. It was the police who let Filomena disturb the contents of her own room. Amanda and Raffaele called the Carabinieri before the postal police arrived. Sollecito worked on his computer for a few minutes around 5:30-6 AM, but I am unaware of any evidence that Knox was up that early. If I get up and go back to sleep and then get up again later, I would say I got up at (for example) 9, not 5:30. I seem to recall that there is some evidence that one of them was up at 9:15, as opposed to 10 AM, but that is a trivial difference in my view.

 

[otto]

Otto:

Non-consensual sexual contact of any kind is rape/sexual assault.

IIRC, it was impossible to determine, based on the evidence, whether it was consensual.

 

[otto]

otto,

Defense expert Carlo Torre thought it was a single attacker. The evidence of a staged break in is weak, IMO. Your statement that they attempted to have Filomena trample through does not make any sense to me. It was the police who let Filomena disturb the contents of her own room. Amanda and Raffaele called the Carabinieri before the postal police arrived. Sollecito worked on his computer for a few minutes around 5:30-6 AM, but I am unaware of any evidence that Knox was up that early. If I get up and go back to sleep and then get up again later, I would say I got up at (for example) 9, not 5:30. I seem to recall that there is some evidence that one of them was up at 9:15, as opposed to 10 AM, but that is a trivial difference in my view.

The evidence in the cottage - such as bloody footprints, the nature of the wounds - such as knife cuts from two different weapons, and the Supreme Court ruling all point towards multiple attackers. Knox called Filomina well before calling police and call time to the Carabinieri is still in question. If the Postal Police had not unexpectedly arrived, it would have been Filomina and friends trampling throughout the crime scene. For some reason, during the murder investigation, police required and expected factual information. Repeatedly getting the timelines wrong and then admitting to telling "rubbish" is not trivial.

 

[otto]

Otto:

Just because the Judge didn't ask for additional testimony with regards to the other appeal issues, does not mean that he will accept the original court's interpretation of them. He has all of the transcripts etc from the original trial, including the refuting testimony. As such, he has all the material he needs to make his own judgments on those issues, without wasting court time on needless additional debates.

Are you thinking that all the other evidence in the case is up for review even though that was rejected at the beginning of the appeal?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

IIRC, it was impossible to determine, based on the evidence, whether it was consensual.

otto,

Meredith had a boyfriend. IIRC there was a conversation among the flatmates (possibly in reference to Amanda's former boyfriend DJ, with whom she had broken up before leaving for Italy) in which Meredith indicated that she believed in fidelity. Therefore, the chances of an encounter with Guede being consensual seem small.

 

[Sonata]

otto,

Meredith had a boyfriend. IIRC there was a conversation among the flatmates (possibly in reference to Amanda's former boyfriend DJ, with whom she had broken up before leaving for Italy) in which Meredith indicated that she believed in fidelity. Therefore, the chances of an encounter with Guede being consensual seem small.

Actually, Meredith was having a sort of holiday fling with her downstairs neighbour, Giacomo, who vaguely knew Guede. So unless we are suggesting that MK slept with her lover's acquaintance on the weekend he was away, then no, it wasn't consensual.

ETA: I was not suggesting that MK was on holiday, obviously she was studying, I just couldn't think of the right way to phrase it.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The evidence in the cottage - such as bloody footprints, the nature of the wounds - such as knife cuts from two different weapons, and the Supreme Court ruling all point towards multiple attackers. Knox called Filomina well before calling police and call time to the Carabinieri is still in question. If the Postal Police had not unexpectedly arrived, it would have been Filomina and friends trampling throughout the crime scene. For some reason, during the murder investigation, police required and expected factual information. Repeatedly getting the timelines wrong and then admitting to telling "rubbish" is not trivial.

otto,

There are bloody shoeprints and luminol-positive footprints, but there are no bloody footprints (except the one on the bathroom mat). Any knife could have made the slash wound, but the kitchen knife was too large to have made at least one, possibly two of the other wounds. There is no need to posit two knives in this case when only one would explain the wounds. Your hypothetical depends on when Filomena would arrive versus when the Carabinieri would arrive, and neither would seem to be under A and R's control. Amanda and Raffaele have both had basically two stories: what they said on 5 November and what they have said on every other occasion. If we had recordings of their interrogations, I might change my viewpoint on them, which is that they were coercive. The Supreme court does not rule on matters of fact. They cannot in effect convict Amanda and Raffaele without representation.

 

[otto]

Worth a quick read:

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/knoxsollecito-dna-battle-who-won/

 

[otto]

otto,

Meredith had a boyfriend. IIRC there was a conversation among the flatmates (possibly in reference to Amanda's former boyfriend DJ, with whom she had broken up before leaving for Italy) in which Meredith indicated that she believed in fidelity. Therefore, the chances of an encounter with Guede being consensual seem small.

I agree that it was not likely consensual, but that doesn't change the evidence. The evidence does not confirm that it was a sexual assault.

 

[Sonata]

I agree that it was not likely consensual, but that doesn't change the evidence. The evidence does not confirm that it was a sexual assault.

I see what you're saying. Technically they cannot prove 100% that she was assaulted.

Realistically though, the only reason they can't say that is because she probably had no bruising in the genital area. To me though, that just suggests that she was already dead by the time it occurred.

 

[otto]

otto,

There are bloody shoeprints and luminol-positive footprints, but there are no bloody footprints (except the one on the bathroom mat). Any knife could have made the slash wound, but the kitchen knife was too large to have made at least one, possibly two of the other wounds. There is no need to posit two knives in this case when only one would explain the wounds. Your hypothetical depends on when Filomena would arrive versus when the Carabinieri would arrive, and neither would seem to be under A and R's control. Amanda and Raffaele have both had basically two stories: what they said on 5 November and what they have said on every other occasion. If we had recordings of their interrogations, I might change my viewpoint on them, which is that they were coercive. The Supreme court does not rule on matters of fact. They cannot in effect convict Amanda and Raffaele without representation.

That bloody footprint on the bath mat points to someone other than Guede because the size/shape of the print is too short and wide for Guede.

Knox changed her story several times, with Dr Sollecito revealing one serious lie about the events on the evening of Nov 1. She claimed that she was eating dinner at 9:30, 10 or 11, but none of the above is true. She claimed that she was watching a movie, but that ended at 9:10. She claimed that she was at the cottage while some other guy murdered Meredith. She claimed all sorts of things, none of which could be verified. Sollecito cannot confirm that Knox was with him through the entire night. He claimed that he was on the computer throughout the night and that he slept until 10 - both proven untrue. They have no alibi and the fact that they could not give police a straight answer about their activities on the night of the murder is not trivial.

 

[otto]

I see what you're saying. Technically they cannot prove 100% that she was assaulted.

Realistically though, the only reason they can't say that is because she probably had no bruising in the genital area. To me though, that just suggests that she was already dead by the time it occurred.

Legally, the evidence did not support rape charges.

 

[Sonata]

That bloody footprint on the bath mat points to someone other than Guede because the size/shape of the print is too short and wide for Guede.

Knox changed her story several times, with Dr Sollecito revealing one serious lie about the events on the evening of Nov 1. She claimed that she was eating dinner at 9:30, 10 or 11, but none of the above is true. She claimed that she was watching a movie, but that ended at 9:10. She claimed that she was at the cottage while some other guy murdered Meredith. She claimed all sorts of things, none of which could be verified. Sollecito cannot confirm that Knox was with him through the entire night. He claimed that he was on the computer throughout the night and that he slept until 10 - both proven untrue. They have no alibi and the fact that they could not give police a straight answer about their activities on the night of the murder is not trivial.

I could go on about things that have been discussed about the possible meanings behind these actions, which, yes, are suspicious.

However, the main point is, as you said of the possibility of sexual assault, it cannot be proven that either AK or RS were directly involved.