Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[Malkmus]

What did the Carabinieri do to cause the UK tabloid to make up a story to go with the picture?

Sent them photos of the crime scene, what else?

On that note, however, you have to ask yourself, Otto, why would ILE give the press a photo of a bathroom dyed in pink like that? Without the dye, it would be an ordinary bathroom, and yet it was given with a bunch of other pictures depicting real bloodshed.

 

[Allusonz]

It's not difficult, if you just take the prosecution's word for everything, as we all tend to do when a case first comes to light. However, when it started to come to light that PLE and the prosecutors were engaging in questionable behavior, and with questionable methods, right from the start, then things started to become a bit more cloudy...as often happens when people are falsely accused. We have a moderate selection of threads here that followed that pattern - and I should add that most of them are still divided, to one degree or another. If you look at the vast majority of 'old cases' here, however, you will see very little debate over guilt.

That behaviour is still continuing to be questioned and further undermined. The experts did it simply with the DNA. How deep does this go?

 

[Allusonz]

Watching the evidence collection video, one would think this as well.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Ok this was good!!!

 

[otto]

1. It shows ILE gave crime scene photos to the press, one of which was very misleading.

2. It was ILE not the prosecutor's office, as you keep saying.

3. It proves Chris's point, and answers your question from a few posts up.

When you say ILE, do you mean the Carabinieri? I don't know what the ILE is.

What is published in the UK tabloid did not come from the Italian prosecutor's office and therefore there is nothing proving that the prosecutor's office released false information.

 

[Malkmus]

When you say ILE, do you mean the Carabinieri? I don't know what the ILE is.

What is published in the UK tabloid did not come from the Italian prosecutor's office and therefore there is nothing proving that the prosecutor's office released false information.

Otto, you must be having an argument with yourself as no one has alleged in this discussion that it was the prosecutor who released the photos.

ILE = Italian Law Enforcement.

 

[ziggy]

I don't know any ordinary people would look at a picture of pink something in a room and think it's blood ... or whatever people imagined it was. Seriously, why would anyone read a tabloid and think that it had the inside scoop on secret information from the prosecutor's office in a foreign country?

Like I said, the prosecutor's office can release true and false information during a criminal investigation if they think that it may lead to new information. Leaking that picture obviously gave everyone new information: tabloids do not report facts.

Hey I know I'm beyond ordinary, very extraordinary, but I read it and thought it was blood. I've seen a good amount of blood trying to be cleaned up and when diluted it was pinkish. I thought good God, it was a slaughter. Now I know better, but seriously I am an ordinary person who has been a member here probably longer than you, neener neener, I'm a third year law student and it's ridiculous to insinuate that people won't buy into a picture with a caption as such at first blush. Some will say, "hey wait a minute is this just sensationalism?" Those people are WS members, but MOST sheeple just go with what they are fed. It's evidenced by the whole foxy knoxy thing that I heard yet AGAIN on the MSM the other day.

 

[Allusonz]

Wow. I appreciate you. The song "say what you need to say...say what you need to say...." comes back to mind! LOL, but only because it was so detailed and thanks for that.

I didn't appear to me, unless I need to read it again (which I will anyways) that she explained why sample B had the DNa but sample C didn't, even though the first reading in the report was NO for both of them. Is that right? And how did she address this, if at all, in court? Or was it in those papers that she was ordered to turn over?

IIRC Stephanoni stated in testimony that she saw a scratch but subsequent photos of the knife showed none. Both the b and c samples were too low. Remember she tested this knife somewhere in the midst of 50 - 60 items of MK's. To my knowledge the raw data she was ordered to turn over simply showed further how inadequate the methods were and gave the experts further documentation to question such as not using the right quantification tests, no positive negative controls etc

 

[Malkmus]

I don't know any ordinary people would look at a picture of pink something in a room and think it's blood ... or whatever people imagined it was. Seriously, why would anyone read a tabloid and think that it had the inside scoop on secret information from the prosecutor's office in a foreign country?

Like I said, the prosecutor's office can release true and false information during a criminal investigation if they think that it may lead to new information. Leaking that picture obviously gave everyone new information: tabloids do not report facts.

Okay, otto, curiosity got the best of me and I decided to do some backtracking and found on this forum when the blood-spattered bathroom photo was released. Here is the post, by a WS moderator no less:

Originally Posted by chicoliving
Italian authorities on Wednesday released chilling photos showing the interior of the apartment of British student Meredith Kercher the night she was murdered and sexually assaulted, the Daily Mail reported.

The photos, which can be viewed on the newspaper's Web site and are graphic, show blood spattered over the sink, toilet and cabinet of the bathroom she shared with American student Amanda Knox, who is one of three suspects.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323185,00.html

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55843&page=6

So, Otto, does your theory still stand that no ordinary person, or anyone on WS would believe the photos are real? Also, note that Fox News repeated the story... not a tabloid.

On a sidenote: Sherlock got me interested in what the community was like here in the early days of this story. In tracking back through the threads I was surprised to see how many of the people who originally followed this story are no longer here, not because they lost interest, but because they were banned! :floorlaugh:

 

[otto]

Otto, you must be having an argument with yourself as no one has alleged in this discussion that it was the prosecutor who released the photos.

ILE = Italian Law Enforcement.

Do you really think that the Carabinieri released a photo of the bathroom without approval from the prosecution's office? Are you relying on the dailymail.uk tabloid for information regarding the origin of the photo?

What is the Italian Law Enforcement? There are eight separate police forces in Italy. Surely you can be more specific than "Italian Law Enforcement" when accusing someone in Italy of distributing false information.

 

[otto]

Hey I know I'm beyond ordinary, very extraordinary, but I read it and thought it was blood. I've seen a good amount of blood trying to be cleaned up and when diluted it was pinkish. I thought good God, it was a slaughter. Now I know better, but seriously I am an ordinary person who has been a member here probably longer than you, neener neener, I'm a third year law student and it's ridiculous to insinuate that people won't buy into a picture with a caption as such at first blush. Some will say, "hey wait a minute is this just sensationalism?" Those people are WS members, but MOST sheeple just go with what they are fed. It's evidenced by the whole foxy knoxy thing that I heard yet AGAIN on the MSM the other day.

One of the first things people learn when researching anything is to discern between valid and non-valid sources. The dailymail tabloid is not a valid source of information. Whatever is published through that media source must be verified elsewhere. If it cannot be verified, chances are it is fiction rather than fact.

 

[otto]

Okay, otto, curiosity got the best of me and I decided to do some backtracking and found on this forum when the blood-spattered bathroom photo was released. Here is the post, by a WS moderator no less:

"Italian authorities on Wednesday released chilling photos showing the interior of the apartment of British student Meredith Kercher the night she was murdered and sexually assaulted, the Daily Mail reported.

The photos, which can be viewed on the newspaper's Web site and are graphic, show blood spattered over the sink, toilet and cabinet of the bathroom she shared with American student Amanda Knox, who is one of three suspects."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323185,00.html

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55843&page=6

So, Otto, does your theory still stand that no ordinary person, or anyone on WS would believe the photos are real? Also, note that Fox News repeated the story... not a tabloid.

On a sidenote: Sherlock got me interested in what the community was like here in the early days of this story. In tracking back through the threads I was surprised to see how many of the people who originally followed this story are no longer here, not because they lost interest, but because they were banned! :floorlaugh:

Ahhhh ... of course ... foxnews did not verify their sources either, so they quoted the tabloid. What a surprise. It seems there's quite a bit of irresponsible reporting going on these days, particularly when it comes to current events in foreign countries.

 

[ziggy]

One of the first things people learn when researching anything is to discern between valid and non-valid sources. The dailymail tabloid is not a valid source of information. Whatever is published through that media source must be verified elsewhere. If it cannot be verified, chances are it is fiction rather than fact.

See? You made my point exactly! WE are the types who "research" and therefore might know that, like duh, but most ordinary people do not "research" these cases and therefore are misled.

 

[Fulcanelli]

It wasn't all that divided at first. If you browse back to earlier threads you see that most posters have simply moved on by now. So it tells me nothing except that this is not a new case. Had this murder happened today, you would see most will be pointing the finger at AK. Covered body, locked bedroom door, alibie lies, their refusal to testify. It is all pretty much websleuths basics. This case never was difficult. JMO.

Exactly. And that was the reason for the need to manufacture an argument that the ILE is corrupt or/and incompetent, because without that this would be an open and shut case.

 

[Fulcanelli]

sherlockh,

Amanda did testify. I have read that it is not always in the best interests of defendants to testify, even when they are innocent. Given Comodi's ability to bring up a nonexistent telephone call to make Amanda look bad, I can understand the concept. From what I have heard, a covered body is the sign of an inexperienced killer, not necessarily a female killer. I am not sure what you mean by an alibi lie with respect to Amanda, unless you mean the interrogation of 5-6 November.

She didn't bring up a non-existent telephone call, the telephone call happened. Just because she made a general reference to the time of it (midday) instead of saying its exact time, does not mean it can then be argued that she was referring to a non-existent call.

However, you seem to have no problem with Raffaele referring to non-existent computer activity, or Amanda referring to non-existent deep conversations about suicided mothers and school bullying, long showers with ear cleaning. long bouts of love making and the rest of the huge list of things they either claimed they did and never happened, or claimed they did but actually happened many hours earlier.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Bold by me:

I thought you were an expert in Italian Law? In Italy, Defamation and Libel are not just Civil offenses, but Criminal as well (in violation of the EU's Human Rights Charter, I might add). This means that if they are found guilty, they will be imprisoned unless they choose to abandon their daughter (assuming that her conviction stands) and refuse to return to Italy for the final verdict and ever after.

And before you go after me for being 'down' on this aspect of Italian Law, again note that the EU Human Rights Court has continuously censured Italy for what is essentially a left over fascist policy on the issue.

You should know, that the 'possible' maximum penalties that exist on the statute books are not what people actually get. The reality is that for defamation in Italy, people get the same as what they get in the US and UK...having to pay compensation and costs. NOBODY will be imprisoned for defamation. If someone were ever to get a prison sentence in In Italy, it would be as an extreme for multiple repeat defamation offences (as in, they'd been in front of the courts many times before) and even then, they would do no jail time because the sentence would be below the minimum limit and so it would be suspended. The minimum limit (going from memory here) is three years. That means only those sentenced to above three years go to jail.

 

[Fulcanelli]

It's not difficult, if you just take the prosecution's word for everything, as we all tend to do when a case first comes to light. However, when it started to come to light that PLE and the prosecutors were engaging in questionable behavior, and with questionable methods, right from the start, then things started to become a bit more cloudy...as often happens when people are falsely accused. We have a moderate selection of threads here that followed that pattern - and I should add that most of them are still divided, to one degree or another. If you look at the vast majority of 'old cases' here, however, you will see very little debate over guilt.

When it comes to light from 'whom'?

 

[Fulcanelli]

This link is from IIP, so I know that it will be instantly discounted by some, but it should be read because it is a very well written look into how easily innocents become victims of the system because they are innocent, the perils of LE's assumptions that anyone they suspect is in fact guilty, and how lying by LE during questioning actually makes it more likely that they will force a false confession from a purely innocent person.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Kassin.AP_innocense_at_risk.05_read.pdf

Ahhh...now I see what your source is. <modsnip>.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Fulcanelli, since you believe Curatolo's tale, how does it fit with the rest of the prosecution's theory or the evidence even, that Amanda and Rafaelle were at the basketball court from 9:30 to 11:30? What were they doing for that two hours, and how does it fit with any a prank or orgy gone wrong between them, Meredith and Rudy with her dying at 11:30?

It doesn't matter about the prosecution's theory, it's the 'judges' theory that matters. It is they that write the final theory (in the motivations report) and that often differs from the prosecution theory (and indeed does in this case) and it's the judges theory that the defence need to challenge. This is not the US/UK system.

Acyually, Knox and Sollecito were placed at the basketball court from 9:29 to around 11 pm.

Have you bever sat down and talked with a girl for an hour and a half then?

What were they doing there? I believe they were waiting for someone...or something.

I believe Guede was included in the 'prank' (my personal view is that it was a nasty prank that that went too far) because three people carrying out the prank are better than two.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Watching the evidence collection video, one would think this as well.

Well, since I'm not a trained CSI with years of experience in the field, I can't really come to a professional conclusion on that...

 

[Sonata]

It doesn't matter about the prosecution's theory, it's the 'judges' theory that matters. It is they that write the final theory (in the motivations report) and that often differs from the prosecution theory (and indeed does in this case) and it's the judges theory that the defence need to challenge. This is not the US/UK system.

Acyually, Knox and Sollecito were placed at the basketball court from 9:29 to around 11 pm.

Have you bever sat down and talked with a girl for an hour and a half then?

What were they doing there? I believe they were waiting for someone...or something.

I believe Guede was included in the 'prank' (my personal view is that it was a nasty prank that that went too far) because three people carrying out the prank are better than two.

The thing that I find odd about that is that surely if they were hanging around there they would just go to AK's flat?

It seems bizarre to hang around outside where they could be seen/overheard in the cold November night when they could just sit in AK's room and wait for a call from Rudy.