Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

[Nova]

Nova, Knox knew that Meredith bled to death right after the murder, and before the information was available.

Filominas' friend's boyfriend was with the Postal police at Meredith's bedroom door. Amanda and Raffaele were standing in the kitchen near the entrance to the cottage. Filomina, her friend and the two boyfriends were in the hallway leading to the bedroom. The police did not want to break down the door, but Filomina insisted. Amanda said that Meredith routinely locked her door. Filominas' friend's boyfriend forced open the door fairly easily as it had already been cracked (apparently Raffaele did this). Meredith was lying on the floor under a duvet with one foot exposed. Police ordered everyone out of the cottage.

Outside of the cottage, Knox and Sollecito were smooching, just like they were when the Postal Police arrived. Everyone was asked to go to the police station to give a statement, and Meredith's friends were also asked to go to the station to give statements. Amanda and Raffaele were driven to the station in the car of Filomina's friends. They claimed that the pair acted so strangely they searched their car afterwards to see if anything had been hidden by them.

At the police station, Knox and Sollecito continued acting strangely. This is what was said about them. Please note that Knox knew, even though she was no where near the bedroom and Meredith was covered with a duvet except for one foot, that Meredith bled to death.

"Amy Frost, a fellow student at Perugia's University for Foreigners at the time Ms Kercher was murdered in her room, described what she saw as the peculiar behaviour of Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito at a Perugia police station after the killing was discovered.

"Their behaviour at the police station seemed to me really inappropriate," she said. "They sat opposite each other, Amanda put her feet up on Raffaele's legs and made faces at him. Everyone cried except Amanda and Raffaele. I never saw them crying. They were kissing each other."

Robyn Butterworth, another close friend of Ms Kercher, said: "Amanda's behaviour was very strange. She didn't seem to show any emotion about what had happened."

They also testified to hearing Ms Knox say that she had seen Ms Kercher's body in the closet of her room with a blanket over it.

Ms Butterworth said: "I don't know who she was talking to. She was talking to the room. I didn't want to talk to her because I found it quite upsetting ... I was really upset that she was even mentioning these things. I removed myself, I didn't want to know. I also remember her talking on the phone, saying, 'It could have been me, how do you think I feel – I found her.' ... She kept talking about how she had found Meredith. She sounded proud that she had been the first to find her."

While in the waiting room at the police station, another of the friends, Natalie Hayward, remarked: "I hope Meredith wasn't in too much pain." Ms Frost remembered Ms Knox replying: "What do you ****ing think? She ****ing bled to death."
The witnesses also recalled how Ms Kercher struck up a friendship with Ms Knox, who she first regarded as "pretty and nice" – but said that the relationship degenerated as the English girl struggled to put up with her flatmate's personal habits.

They recalled how Ms Kercher complained that Ms Knox left the shared bathroom dirty, failed to flush the toilet and left a see-through washbag containing condoms and a rabbit-shaped vibrator lying around. They also said that she brought men home. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...girl--arrive-to-incriminate-knox-1609172.html

Ah, yes, and we segue right to the vibrator as if that has anything to do with price of tea in China! But let's put that entirely unnecessary addition to the side for a moment.

otto, where is your transcript of what was said at the house? The police had a civilian break down the door. The police then went in and discovered MK's body. We've seen video of ILE passing around a piece of bra clasp. Are we supposed to believe the police were so careful of the crime scene that they didn't lift the duvet to see what was underneath? Sorry. I don't believe it.

And once they had lifted the duvet to find the bloody body beneath, are we to believe they kept silent and pantomimed to the students to leave the house and go to the police station? Of course, they didn't. So we don't know exactly what was said at the discovery of the body, but a reasonable person will expect there was quite a bit of excitement (human nature) and quite a bit of chatter. Who knows what AK picked up from that exchange?

At the police station, it is quite common for LE to claim they have "withheld" info that they have in fact given away with the very nature of their questions.

As for the rest of your citation, we're back to the testimony that AK acted differently than the British girls after the murder. Okay, AK responded differently. It happens. It isn't proof of murder.

On the contrary, if AK had been guilty, she would have watched the others to make sure her own behavior resembled theirs. (I can't prove this, of course, but it makes at least as much sense and as long as we're making sweeping claims about what is "normal behavior"...)

(ETA otto, in all seriousness, the frequency with which posters shift from actual evidence to descriptions of affect to irrelevant details intended only to slander AK (the condoms and the vibrator) only serves to reinforce my belief that there really isn't all that much evidence against AK in the first place.)

 

[otto]

I don't know if this will help (there are a couple of incomplete details, like the missing closet in Merediths bedroom), but this shows the floor plan and where everyone was when the bedroom door was opened. Knox and Raffaele were no where near the bedroom, and did not pass the bedroom when ordered by police to leave the cottage.

 

[otto]

otto, my question about your disagreeing only referred to my offhand remark that I think we can all agree MK would have been better off if she had rented a room elsewhere. See my comments on that subject below.

As for the supposed "mountain" of forensic evidence against AK, you ought to be able to list some of it. I see the "mountain" of evidence against RG. And I see numerous complaints about AK's affect after the murder. But I do not see much forensic evidence against AK or RS. A bit of highly suspicious DNA on a knife and on a bra clasp? I think that's called making a mountain out of a molehill.



OK, here I believe you are arguing just to be arguing. All I said is that we can all agree MK would be better off if she had found lodging elsewhere. And if we're honest, we can agree on that much. (That isn't to say she is to blame for her choice of lodging, just that living there put her in contact with the murderer or murderers.)

At no time have you or the prosecutor articulated a theory of the murder in which AK looks for a prey and specifically chooses MK. So I see no reason to believe that if MK had lived elsewhere, she would have been in danger. Even under the various prosecution theories, the danger would have attached to whoever rented the room in MK's stead.

It was just an offhand comment, otto. Your need to argue the point through three rounds of posts baffles me.

Make a list? Nah ... I'm not a list maker. I think others can read the 427 page document and make a list if they need it, but I don't have time.

 

[Nova]

Make a list? Nah ... I'm not a list maker. I think others can read the 427 page document and make a list if they need it, but I don't have time.

I'm sorry, otto. "Make a list" sounded more exhaustive than I meant it.

You have been very generous with your knowledge of the case, particularly to me, and have no obligation to provide anything.

I was merely surprised to read you feel there is a mountain of forensic evidence against AK, because that's one thing that seems sorely lacking in this case.

If there were actually a great deal of forensic evidence against either AK or RS, we wouldn't have spent four years talking about a bra clasp and a kitchen knife that tested negative for blood. IMO, obviously.

 

[Nova]

I don't know if this will help (there are a couple of incomplete details, like the missing closet in Merediths bedroom), but this shows the floor plan and where everyone was when the bedroom door was opened. Knox and Raffaele were no where near the bedroom, and did not pass the bedroom when ordered by police to leave the cottage.

Thank you. I wasn't claiming that AK saw the body of MK. I don't know. My point was that a lot was going on at the time the body was discovered. I don't believe everyone involved was maintaining a strict vow of silence.

Absent a recording, there's no way to know what AK heard at the scene.

 

[Allusonz]

I am always amazed at false confessions but so many have come to light now. Scary.
Thank you

False Confessions
In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.

These cases show that confessions are not always prompted by internal knowledge or actual guilt, but are sometimes motivated by external influences.

Why do innocent people confess?
A variety of factors can contribute to a false confession during a police interrogation. Many cases have included a combination of several of these causes. They include:

•duress
•coercion
•intoxication
•diminished capacity
•mental impairment
•ignorance of the law
•fear of violence
•the actual infliction of harm
•the threat of a harsh sentence
•Misunderstanding the situation


http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

 

[Allusonz]

Trial testimony

Mignini: Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45?
Why didn't you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.

Amanda: Before what?

Mignini: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?

Amanda: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.

very telling testimony in my opinion

 

[Allusonz]

Amanda's questioning started at about 11PM before she was brought into the interrogation room.



Murder In Italy, C. Dempsey

Interesting how many names they had already collected prior to 11pm

 

[Allusonz]

Most of your questions are answered here:

http://candacedempsey.com/24.html

As far as jumping on this case "with a very strong bias" I'm not sure where you get that other than perhaps that Candace does think Amanda is innocent. But perhaps you could explain where this notion comes from if not that.
Her husband? No idea. Again, perhaps you could explain.
Ambulance chaser... OUCH. that's a big leap. She was there for much of the trial and interviewed many of the key players and had access to trial transcripts. I've seen many people on sites like True Justice For Meredith Kercher and PMF try to throw her under the bus and damage her credibility for thinking Amanda is innocent, but there's been no real reason to doubt any of the things she's written.

Oh, and as far as the "cooking column lady" goes, I guess it's a theme among authors covering this case. Barbie Nadeau, author of "Angel Face", was also a culinary writer beforehand, having penned a cookbook or two. She, on the other hand, has numerous factual errors in her book but has never been criticized the way Dempsey has been.

i can get you a big bandaid for that OUCH :innocent:

 

[Allusonz]

I have some problems with the information that Candace Dempsey has brought to the case. Isn't she the cooking column lady that jumped on this case with a very strong bias, who doesn't speak Italian ... and wasn't her husband posting very strange things on the internet? Am I mistaking her with someone else?

She strikes me as an ambulance chaser.

that is usually reserved for lawyers not authors

 

[Allusonz]

AK and RS were railroaded.

I finally can now say I'm off the fence.

I believe they are innocent of this murder.

Reading the reiteration of the same arguments (and misstatements) over and over and over and over, as if repeating them will do anything but put more bytes on a page, only causes me to see how firmly entrenched the ILE and others were to get AK and RS convicted for this crime.

That others have jumped on that bandwagon and are taking up the cause of perpetuating false facts only makes it more clear that a conspiracy is 95% emotional and maybe 5% factual. And there is no dealing with a human who is incapable of looking at facts without distorting them, to maintain a position based on emotion and feelings. That's what this case has turned into, from what I can see. Logic is not prevailing.

The facts do not support a 'guilty' verdict. I believe two people are sitting in jail in this case for something they did not do.

I am going to join you on this sleuthy....they are innocent :great:

 

[Allusonz]

Never mind the fact that when English isn't your first language, what you mean to say isn't always understood by other people who speak english as their primary language. Does that make sense?

makes perfect sense to me

 

[Allusonz]

Criminal History: Raffaele and Knox both had a history with violating the law. Knox had the disturbance charge, and police had found Raffaele with 2.67 grams
hashish in 2003.

Knives: Rudy had been known to carry a knife, Raffaele had been known to have a knife collection and to carry knives.

DNA: Rudy left evidence of himself at the scene (the cottage). Raffaele and Knox left evidence on the bra (Raffaele's team found Knox DNA on the bra). Knox left mixed DNA samples at the scene.

All three are convicted of the violent murder; 44 injuries to the victim.

NONE let me repeat NO DNA of AK on the bra

 

[otto]

Trial testimony

Mignini: Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45?
Why didn't you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.

Amanda: Before what?

Mignini: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?

Amanda: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.

And if we continue reading the transcript, as information is dragged out of Amanda ...

GCM: But they didn't literally say that it was him!

AK: No. They didn't say it was him, but they said "We know who it is, we know who it is. You were with him, you met him."

GCM: So, these were the suggestions.

AK: Yes.

Nova ... if you need a link to the transcripts ... say the word.
And if someone wants to take the time to read through it, it is clear that Knox introduced Patrick's name, not police.

 

[otto]

that is usually reserved for lawyers not authors

I would not consider Dempsey to be an author ... propagandist, yes, author, no.

 

[otto]

NONE let me repeat NO DNA of AK on the bra

Foxy Knoxy's DNA 'found on Meredith Kercher's bloody bra' claim her ex-boyfriend's lawyers

"The dramatic announcement blew apart theories that Knox and Sollecito had teamed up in a pact against third fellow suspect Ivory Coast drifter Rudy Guede, 21.

In a 14 page report submitted by forensics professor Francesco Vinci, who has been retained by Sollecito's legal team, he claimed that Knox and Guede's DNA was on the bra....

Professor Vinci's report says that there is evidence of DNA from all three suspects on the bra. Sollecito's legal team do not dispute its existence but insist it is there due to contamination.

...

Italian news reports said the development was a "punch below the belt" by Sollecito's lawyers to Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, who are representing Knox."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...laim-ex-boyfriends-lawyers.html#ixzz1EN69KNgv

 

[Allusonz]

Foxy Knoxy's DNA 'found on Meredith Kercher's bloody bra' claim her ex-boyfriend's lawyers

"The dramatic announcement blew apart theories that Knox and Sollecito had teamed up in a pact against third fellow suspect Ivory Coast drifter Rudy Guede, 21.

In a 14 page report submitted by forensics professor Francesco Vinci, who has been retained by Sollecito's legal team, he claimed that Knox and Guede's DNA was on the bra....

Professor Vinci's report says that there is evidence of DNA from all three suspects on the bra. Sollecito's legal team do not dispute its existence but insist it is there due to contamination.

...

Italian news reports said the development was a "punch below the belt" by Sollecito's lawyers to Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, who are representing Knox."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...laim-ex-boyfriends-lawyers.html#ixzz1EN69KNgv

Prosecutors maintain that Sollecito's DNA was found on the bra clasp and that Knox's DNA was found on the knife's handle and Kercher's DNA on the blade.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/18/amanda-knox-trial-makes-d_n_798632.html?view=print

Prosecutors maintain that Sollecito's DNA was found on the bra clasp and that Knox's DNA was found on the knife.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/18/earlyshow/saturday/main7162462.shtml

The two defence teams had asked for experts to complete an independent review of the analysis of the knife, found in Sollecito's kitchen drawer and considered a murder weapon. It contained tiny DNA traces of both Knox and Kercher, according to police, but insufficient quantities to be reliable, said the defence

Also disputed is the discovery of Sollecito's DNA on Kercher's torn bra clasp, found in her room 49 days after her death, during which time it had been moved accidentally by investigators

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/18/amanda-knox-dna-appeal


Prosecutors maintain that Sollecito’s DNA was found on the bra clasp and that Knox’s DNA was found on the knife’s handle and Kercher’s DNA on the blade.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2010/12/19/1778785/1st-important-victory-in-amanda.html

Prosecutors maintain that Sollecito’s DNA was found on the bra clasp and that Knox’s DNA was found on the knife’s handle and Kercher’s DNA on the blade. The defence maintains that DNA traces presented at the first trial were inconclusive and also contends they might have been contaminated when they were analyzed

http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/909335

Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and a police forensic report presented to the court in Perugia, where Meredith was murdered, has suggested that computer studies graduate Sollecito's DNA is on the clasp

But last week his lawyers Luca Maori and Giulia Bongiorno told the hearing that 24 year old Sollecito's DNA was only on the metal hook because of contamination in a police lab.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...bra-claim-ex-boyfriends-lawyers.html?ITO=1490


Prosecutors maintain that Sollecito's DNA was found on the bra clasp and that Knox's DNA was found on the knife's handle and Kercher's DNA on the blade

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/intern..._yviSvlfKArTIruSrSZ4MAI?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=


The bra's back strap bore multiple traces of DNA belonging to Ivorian Rudy Guede - already convicted separately in the case - while that of Knox's Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, appeared only on a hook, she said

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world/bra-ta...al/story-e6frfkyi-1225806817516#ixzz1EMx9S2DB



A prosecution witness earlier claimed that the DNA belongs to Knox's ex-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, but the defense expert testified Saturday that it's just as likely that the the DNA got onto the bra through later contamination

http://www.komonews.com/news/51096252.html

 

[Allusonz]

Foxy Knoxy's DNA 'found on Meredith Kercher's bloody bra' claim her ex-boyfriend's lawyers

"The dramatic announcement blew apart theories that Knox and Sollecito had teamed up in a pact against third fellow suspect Ivory Coast drifter Rudy Guede, 21.

In a 14 page report submitted by forensics professor Francesco Vinci, who has been retained by Sollecito's legal team, he claimed that Knox and Guede's DNA was on the bra....

Professor Vinci's report says that there is evidence of DNA from all three suspects on the bra. Sollecito's legal team do not dispute its existence but insist it is there due to contamination.

Italian news reports said the development was a "punch below the belt" by Sollecito's lawyers to Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, who are representing Knox."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...laim-ex-boyfriends-lawyers.html#ixzz1EN69KNgv

Dr. Greg Hampikian DNA expert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vEFPZgW9HA

 

[Allusonz]

And if we continue reading the transcript, as information is dragged out of Amanda ...

GCM: But they didn't literally say that it was him!

AK: No. They didn't say it was him, but they said "We know who it is, we know who it is. You were with him, you met him."

GCM: So, these were the suggestions.

AK: Yes.

Nova ... if you need a link to the transcripts ... say the word.
And if someone wants to take the time to read through it, it is clear that Knox introduced Patrick's name, not police.

She was asked whom sent the text message she responded PL what is your point?

In fact not sure what most of the points being introduced of late are about. We know she said PL and that is backed up in the testimony

 

[Allusonz]

I would not consider Dempsey to be an author ... propagandist, yes, author, no.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh: