Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

[Nova]

Exactly ... people that travel in Italy are not randomly arrested, charged, prosecuted, and tossed in jail for 26 years for no reason.

Are you claiming there has never been a wrongful conviction in Italy? Because if not, I don't see your point.

The original post, to which Trillian was responding, claims AK must be guilty because she was arrested and police don't arrest innocent people.

Hearing this will be a great comfort to Mr. Lumumba.

 

[otto]

You are right: she didn't panic. But that's not to say AK wasn't concerned and didn't call her mother in an attempt to feel better. Lots of kids do that.

AK was essentially alone in a foreign country, dealing mostly in a language she only partially understood.

It isn't that big a mystery why, upon discovering a break-in but nothing obvious missing, she called her mother and then went to see an Italian friend, eventually allowing him to call the police.

Of course, now we know her first call should have been to a criminal defense lawyer, but hindsight is always 20/20.

I don't think anyone is arguing that AK was always instantly mature and responsible. She made mistakes. She could be flaky, or at least appear so when one sets asides issues such as the language barrier. But immaturity is a long way from murder.

At 3 o'clock in the morning? That's not something Amanda did ... according to testimony. Furthermore, why did she need to call mom "to feel better"?

How could Knox know if anything was missing?

Amanda didn't call her mom and then visit a friend. She showered, changed, did her hair, went to Raffaele's to eat, ate, then wandered back to the cottage with Raffaele, and then called mom at 3 am Seattle time ... but nothing had happened, so why did she call mom?

 

[Nova]

What reason did postal police have to enter a private home and break down a door?

To see if there was a murdered co-ed inside, but more importantly, to see if there was a victim who could still be helped.

 

[Nova]

Um, o k a y.
Check out the new poll thread...you only need to read post #1 to find the answer to your question.

I don't know what poll thread you mean, but it doesn't really matter.

We'd all rather believe that LE always gets it right.

The truth is far more disturbing.

 

[otto]

Are you claiming there has never been a wrongful conviction in Italy? Because if not, I don't see your point.

The original post, to which Trillian was responding, claims AK must be guilty because she was arrested and police don't arrest innocent people.

Hearing this will be a great comfort to Mr. Lumumba.

Patrick was not convicted and thrown in jail for 26 years ... he was falsely accused by a monster, a woman with no soul - according the Patrick.

I think it's fair to say that because Knox and Sollecito were convicted in a completely transparent trial that was monitored by the US embassy, that they are indeed guilty.

 

[otto]

To see if there was a murdered co-ed inside, but more importantly, to see if there was a victim who could still be helped.

The postal police are not in charge of criminal investigations or missing persons searches. They had no authority to do anything except return the phones.

Do police go around busting people's bedroom doors in the US without probable cause?

 

[Nova]

At 3 o'clock in the morning? That's not something Amanda did ... according to testimony. Furthermore, why did she need to call mom "to feel better"?

How could Knox know if anything was missing?

Amanda didn't call her mom and then visit a friend. She showered, changed, did her hair, went to Raffaele's to eat, ate, then wandered back to the cottage with Raffaele, and then called mom at 3 am Seattle time ... but nothing had happened, so why did she call mom?

Because someone broke into her apartment. I don't know what to say if you can't understand that kids sometimes call their parents, even at inconvenient hours.

Would I have stopped to shower and dress before dealing with the break-in? I don't think so, but then I'm not a 20-year-old girl.

Maybe AK was hoping one of the other roommates--one of the native Italians--would arrive and take care of the situation. Careless of her? Perhaps. But not so hard to understand.

 

[Nova]

Patrick was not convicted and thrown in jail for 26 years ... he was falsely accused by a monster, a woman with no soul - according the Patrick.

I think it's fair to say that because Knox and Sollecito were convicted in a completely transparent trial that was monitored by the US embassy, that they are indeed guilty.

My point remains: it is absurd to claim that ILE never arrests innocent people--which was the claim to which Trillian responded.

And frankly and though I don't have figures for Italy, I think it's equally absurd to claim that verdicts are always fair and just in Italy. For if they are, I wonder why their system has an appeals process?

 

[otto]

Because someone broke into her apartment. I don't know what to say if you can't understand that kids sometimes call their parents, even at inconvenient hours.

Would I have stopped to shower and dress before dealing with the break-in? I don't think so, but then I'm not a 20-year-old girl.

Maybe AK was hoping one of the other roommates--one of the native Italians--would arrive and take care of the situation. Careless of her? Perhaps. But not so hard to understand.

The problem here is that Amanda did not call her mom when she saw the door open, or the blood in the bathroom. You keep saying that she called her mom because she thought something was wrong, but Amanda did not alert anyone to report that something was wrong. She didn't call her mom, police, or any of her roommates. She simply showered and left. Filomina was concerned about Meredith, not Amanda. Raffaele claims that he told Amanda to phone her roommates. Amanda did not call her mom until the door was about to be broken, but why did she call then ... nothing had yet happened. Edda asked Knox this very same question.

Amanda was not convicted of carelessness, she was convicted of murder.

 

[trillian]

Um, o k a y.
Check out the new poll thread...you only need to read post #1 to find the answer to your question.

Link please. Think it may be interesting. I only post in this thread, so I dont know where you are talking about.
Many people travel. I travel a TON. My family is in the travel business and I am an international manager for a fortune 50 company. Facts DO NOT change when you cross a border. Laws and procedures do, but not the truth.

 

[otto]

My point remains: it is absurd to claim that ILE never arrests innocent people--which was the claim to which Trillian responded.

And frankly and though I don't have figures for Italy, I think it's equally absurd to claim that verdicts are always fair and just in Italy. For if they are, I wonder why their system has an appeals process?

Knox was asked after the trial whether she had a fair trial, and she reported that it was fair.

 

[Nova]

The postal police are not in charge of criminal investigations or missing persons searches. They had no authority to do anything except return the phones.

Do police go around busting people's bedroom doors in the US without probable cause?

I do understand there are two types of police in Italy, and the postal police don't have the same authority as the carabinieri. Perhaps the postal police behaved entirely according to procedure, but I find that odd, under the circumstances.

In the U.S., there is a principle called "exigent circumstances," in which the usual rules of probable cause can be set aside. I'm not a lawyer, but I do not believe U.S. police would walk away from a locked room where there had been a break-in and the room's occupant was not accounted for. Would the police ask permission of other residents? Perhaps. Would they leave it to civilians to break through the locked door? I doubt it.

But I don't believe they would walk away from that locked room, not even if it meant waiting for a warrant.

 

[Nova]

Knox was asked after the trial whether she had a fair trial, and she reported that it was fair.

That's not true, as has been pointed out to you more than once.

What Knox actually said was that she was satisfied with her attorneys.

 

[Nova]

The problem here is that Amanda did not call her mom when she saw the door open, or the blood in the bathroom. You keep saying that she called her mom because she thought something was wrong, but Amanda did not alert anyone to report that something was wrong. She didn't call her mom, police, or any of her roommates. She simply showered and left. Filomina was concerned about Meredith, not Amanda. Raffaele claims that he told Amanda to phone her roommates. Amanda did not call her mom until the door was about to be broken, but why did she call then ... nothing had yet happened. Edda asked Knox this very same question.

Amanda was not convicted of carelessness, she was convicted of murder.

And that's the problem. There's evidence of her carelessness and immaturity. There's evidence she was self-centered. There's evidence that she made foolish choices. Evidence of murder? Not so much.

But the mountain you are making out of a molehill of a phone call is a great example of why some of us are none too impressed with the "abundance of forensic and circumstantial evidence" against AK.

 

[trillian]

I do understand there are two types of police in Italy, and the postal police don't have the same authority as the carabinieri. Perhaps the postal police behaved entirely according to procedure, but I find that odd, under the circumstances.

In the U.S., there is a principle called "exigent circumstances," in which the usual rules of probable cause can be set aside. I'm not a lawyer, but I do not believe U.S. police would walk away from a locked room where there had been a break-in and the room's occupant was not accounted for. Would the police ask permission of other residents? Perhaps. Would they leave it to civilians to break through the locked door? I doubt it.

But I don't believe they would walk away from that locked room, not even if it meant waiting for a warrant.

They also would not walk away from a foot sticking out of a duvet with blood without checking to see if there was a person in need of immediate medical care underneath. Unless they were complete idiots. Or liars. Since they said they did not enter, take your pick.

 

[otto]

And that's the problem. There's evidence of her carelessness and immaturity. There's evidence she was self-centered. There's evidence that she made foolish choices. Evidence of murder? Not so much.

But the mountain you are making out of a molehill of a phone call is a great example of why some of us are none too impressed with the "abundance of forensic and circumstantial evidence" against AK.

Strange as it may be, it is actually Edda that made the first mountain out of that mole hill. Edda asked Amanda on Nov 10 why she made that first phone call ... and Edda was on the other end of the phone. That must have been one strange phone call, moreso when Edda realized that the call came in before the murder was discovered.

 

[Nova]

Strange as it may be, it is actually Edda that made the first mountain out of that mole hill. Edda asked Amanda on Nov 10 why she made that first phone call ... and Edda was on the other end of the phone. That must have been one strange phone call, moreso when Edda realized that the call came in before the murder was discovered.

Maybe we're talking past one another here, otto. You seem to think there was something sinister, or at least suspicious, about that call.

But while I agree AK could have been more on top of things, I don't see what she did that morning except procrastinate dealing with a break-in, probably hoping one of the flatmates who spoke Italian would come along and take over.

Do I think AK should have been more on the ball? I certainly do, particularly given that MK's door was locked and MK wasn't answering knocks. But 20-year-olds often think they and their friends are invulnerable and assume everything will turn out okay.

***

So if that phone call to Seattle matters, why did EM ask about the phone call? How do we know she did? What did AK reply?

 

[browneyedgirl]

what reason did postal police have to enter a private home and break down a door?

do they not perform "well person checks" in italy like the police have the authority to do here?

 

[otto]

do they not perform "well person checks" in italy like the police have the authority to do here?

Who knows. It's not like anyone was reported missing. The police were there to return a cell phone and nothing more.

 

[otto]

Maybe we're talking past one another here, otto. You seem to think there was something sinister, or at least suspicious, about that call.

But while I agree AK could have been more on top of things, I don't see what she did that morning except procrastinate dealing with a break-in, probably hoping one of the flatmates who spoke Italian would come along and take over.

Do I think AK should have been more on the ball? I certainly do, particularly given that MK's door was locked and MK wasn't answering knocks. But 20-year-olds often think they and their friends are invulnerable and assume everything will turn out okay.

***

So if that phone call to Seattle matters, why did EM ask about the phone call? How do we know she did? What did AK reply?

All the information, including court transcripts regarding the call, has already been posted on this thread.