Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[Allusonz]

As was OJ but that didn't stop a civil suit against him - on American soil no less.

They did not in the OJ trial run the criminal and civil trials concurrent.

In these proceedings they did.

 

[Allusonz]

I'm going to be fair to Mignini here. This is more of an indication of how far out of control the international 'drug war' has become than anything else. Botched or mistaken paramilitary raids on homes for the flimsiest of reasons have become standard fair in the US, EU and elsewhere, with no sign of letting up - indeed, it appears to be accelerating. It has become so common that it takes the death of a child to make anyone notice anymore.:furious:

On the other hand, Frank's last article had a nice list of individuals who have been wrongfully prosecuted by Mignini, some of whom I had not been familiar with. One is a very recently acquitted former porn star...that one I'd like to see more about...purely for research purposes, of course. :innocent:

I believe I can state that she was nothing spectacular but then again I am a lady

 

[Allusonz]

On 48 hours they did a segment called Amanda Knox: The untold story

Bob Graham reads a letter from AK to him during this time for those that are interested

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/48hours/main3410.shtml?tag=hdr;snav

 

[SMK]

*Snipped*. Your 'facts' claim exactly the same as was just discussed a few pages back. The words come from Luca Maori, a defense lawyer. All the other articles are based on what the defense lawyer said. They were putting words in the mouths of the prosecutors. You are quoting the defense lawyer.

To refer to a 'commom thread' here is laughable. This is a very unfriendly thread towards anyone with a different opinion other than 'sweet innocent Amanda'. Most people with a different opinion simply couldn't be bothered to participate here (anymore). This thread stand outs (negatively) from all other threads here on websleuths. Very strange. JMO.

I found an extensive list of quotes - some from Mignini himself - on JREF forum, which I will link here later if I can find it , which you claim came only from defense lawyers.
Second, I find it very disturbing that I and many others have claimed repeatedly that we do NOT believe Amanda to be all pure as the driven snow, but a fully human, robust person, with the whole range of qualities in her - yet, it keeps being repeated that we see her as sweet and innocent. Please read the threads. Knox was acquitted, and do not lose sight of this judicial fact. Judge Hellman ruled with the special stipulation that "the defendants did not commit the crimes", including simulation of a crime, and all the rest.

 

[Nova]

You know, I was going to snip this and than I thought better of it, because it is TRUE! As hard as I and the other mods have tried, for some reason, no one seems to understand that it is OKAY for others to have a different opinion and they DON'T need to be beat down for it.

The truth of the matter, in my opinion, is that some of the excuses made for Amanda's behavior on this thread are just laughable. Now, I'm not saying she is guilty but I am saying for all of those cool heads that think they are looking at the evidence objectively, they probably should go back and take another look. There are things in this case that make no sense and can not just be explained away, regardless of which side of the fence you are sitting on. Yes, the prosecutor did some really awful and strange things, but no, a pierced ear is not going to bleed drops of blood into the sink. The reality here is that we don't know what really happened even with all the wringing of every piece of evidence. There was NOT one objective voice in this case, in my opinion. NOT ONE!

And all the well-seasoned sleuths on this thread took positions, regardless of nonobjectivity, and then beat each other mercilessly with it.

It really was more about US versus THEM, than Amanda and Rafelle.

And 99.9% was so unnecessary.

Be nice in here or prepare for a TO, because there will be NO MORE warnings. If I don't catch up until a day or so later, that will not excuse you. Anymore mean and nasty posting and you should just be prepared to take a bit of a vacation. Enough is Enough and I've had enough. The Judge/jury has spoken. We move on from there.

Salem

If the discussion here eventually seemed one-sided, it was because analysis over time showed there was no evidence of AK's or RS' guilt. (Yes, an infected ear piercing can bleed.) Yet some who believed in AK's and RS' guilt nonetheless resorted instead to endless repetitions of misinformation and disinformation gleaned from tabloids and blogs. When every disagreement about a case eventually ends in a discussion of hearsay about an alleged cartwheel, increasing frustration is to be expected.

The appellate court's independent experts had the gallery doubled over with laughter at the bungling of Perugia LE. Yet somehow posters here were expected to pretend the evidence pro and con was equal both in quantity and in quality. That demanded that most of us pretend to believe a fiction.

From my view, what has distinguished this discussion is the constant repetition of untrue claims that were allowed to stand because they were worded in such a way that to counter them was to violate the TOS. I do appreciate the problem: I understand that mods don't have time to arbitrate the accuracy of posts. But if posters on the pro-innocence side sometimes seemed ungracious, it may have been because a poster or two (certainly not all) on the pro-guilty side engaged in relentless and dishonest word games.

<modsnip>

 

[SkewedView]

IMO a huge part of the antagonistic problems in these threads has derived from the same type of source as the ones on political boards: Each point of view has a set of 'echo chamber' forums that many posters regularly visit before or while posting here.

Inside those echo chambers, saying things a certain way will earn one applause, whereas on these threads, doing the same winds up being inflammatory. In addition, on each side, the echo chambers tend to accept things as absolute fact that are in reality very debatable, or even thoroughly debunked.

Due to group-think reinforcement, ideas and theories arising from such one dimensional environments tend to become outlandish without the proponents of such ever realising it, and when they present them to a more general audience, the incredulity of the reaction surprises and shocks them, causing a knee-jerk defense that only degenerates matters from there.

There are other flaws to spending too much time in the forum equivalents of Fox News and MSNBC, but the biggest is of course the Cappulets VS Montagues aspect, because group identification always leads to 'you people' accusations during heated debate.



The other big problem that I've noticed is that certain posters on both sides, some regulars and some not, are very good at passive-aggressive tactics that aren't really reportable as TOS violations, but are nonetheless tailored to bait or inflame other posters into violating TOS in response. Personally, the use of these tactics has frustrated me a great deal more than the actual contents of such posts, as they are poison pills to healthy debate. ETA: Not to mention the frustration of having fallen into such traps myself, much to my chagrin.

 

[SkewedView]

Kokomani wasn't a suspect, yet he came forward as a witness and identified both AK and RS on the scene. IMO he would have never come forward if he was involved somehow himself. I think he did lie about the circumstances (bumping into them in the road) because he is far more the drug dealer then RG ever was. If he was there then most likely the reason was to provide drugs to the 3. This then explains the violent nature of the attack against Meredith (somewhat, as I don't want to use drug use as an 'excuse'). However, I don't believe we will hear much more from Kokomani again. The lawyers of RS will do anything to prevent him from speaking out. Besides that he might face charges for his previous testimony if he is going to change his story now. JMO.

First, I don't see how 'not being a suspect' means anything, given how many cases there have been where LEAs have had criminals right under their noses for years before they finally caught on.

Given that, if he was involved (and at this point that's a pretty iffy if, IMO) then it was in his best interest to interject himself into the investigation, to further muddy the water, and to place himself there in a capacity that was useful to LE instead of suspicious, in case someone had come forward about his presence there. It is not at all unheard of for those involved in a serious crime such as murder to interject themselves into the investigation in such a manner that directs the attention of LE away from them. In fact such an argument has been applied numerous times to AK & RS.

All that said, please note that I'm not buying into this theory, but I am not willing to dismiss it out of hand either, given that the scenario itself doesn't attribute any actions, behaviors or motives to him that are implausible or contradictory with real world, albeit anecdotal examples of criminal behavior.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The blood from her ear didn't have to come from falling off. I find that implausible as well. It could very well have come from touching her ear, then the faucet.

I never found the luminol too difficult to explain, given all the manuals and expert warnings that it can not be used to determine whether a substance is actually blood. But what really hits it home for me, is the unknown female footprint. I doubt there was another woman there who stepped in blood.

Malkmus,

As Fine at JREF pointed out, some of the brown patches are reflections, not blood. Obviously I agree that luminol is only a presumptive test for blood. Good point about the unknown woman. More reference prints would have been nice. Also, the luminol looks like it was poured onto the floor in some photos.

 

[sherlockh]

First, I don't see how 'not being a suspect' means anything, given how many cases there have been where LEAs have had criminals right under their noses for years before they finally caught on.

Given that, if he was involved (and at this point that's a pretty iffy if, IMO) then it was in his best interest to interject himself into the investigation, to further muddy the water, and to place himself there in a capacity that was useful to LE instead of suspicious, in case someone had come forward about his presence there. It is not at all unheard of for those involved in a serious crime such as murder to interject themselves into the investigation in such a manner that directs the attention of LE away from them. In fact such an argument has been applied numerous times to AK & RS.

All that said, please note that I'm not buying into this theory, but I am not willing to dismiss it out of hand either, given that the scenario itself doesn't attribute any actions, behaviors or motives to him that are implausible or contradictory with real world, albeit anecdotal examples of criminal behavior.

Not being a suspect means nobody came to him with any questions, no witness saw him, no evidence of him was ever found. The police never had Kokomani under their nose. He wasn't connected to the murder at all and would have never been connected had he not come forward himself. Had he been involved somehow there would have been no reason to come forward to 'muddy the waters'. These waters were already pitch black when it came to Kokomani.

The only possible reason that he did come forward is that he was not involved himself, and that indeed he knew who killed Meredith. He identified all 3 at the crime scene. However, by the time he testified he was already in jail for his drug problems and he couldn't be bothered anymore to give a clear testimony. He even refused a translator. Hardly anyone could understand a word he was saying

AK and RS interjected themselves right from the start since AK lived there and they had cleaned/staged the crime scene. They knew they had quite a few things to 'explain'.

 

[SMK]

Just a bit of trivia: Amanda was seen out at a bank and a gas station with her Stepdad and a body guard yesterday: The "body guard" bearing a strong resemblance to former FBI agent Steve Moore.

It must feel really strange to her, after 4 yrs in an Italian prison, to be out and about in her hometown Seattle:

http://www.radaronline.com/sites/radaronline.com/files/photos/image_20111012/INFphoto_1903161.jpg

 

[Steft50]

Not being a suspect means nobody came to him with any questions, no witness saw him, no evidence of him was ever found. The police never had Kokomani under their nose. He wasn't connected to the murder at all and would have never been connected had he not come forward himself. Had he been involved somehow there would have been no reason to come forward to 'muddy the waters'. These waters were already pitch black when it came to Kokomani.

The only possible reason that he did come forward is that he was not involved himself, and that indeed he knew who killed Meredith. He identified all 3 at the crime scene. However, by the time he testified he was already in jail for his drug problems and he couldn't be bothered anymore to give a clear testimony. He even refused a translator. Hardly anyone could understand a word he was saying

AK and RS interjected themselves right from the start since AK lived there and they had cleaned/staged the crime scene. They knew they had quite a few things to 'explain'.

I've asked this before but no one has even tried to explain it to me. How is a crime scene selectively cleaned? By selectively I'm asking how all trace evidence of AK and RS were removed from the bedroom with just enough evidence to verify that AK did live there too in the rest of the house? While at the same time leaving all evidence of Rudy throughout the apartment including the Ms Kerchers bedroom.

Judge Hellman ruled that no crime of staging occurred. What evidence is there that shows AK and RS staged the crime scene please?
Thank you.

This just seems to keep going in circles imo. There really is no forensic evidence that puts AK and RS at the apartment that night and what little bit there was has been strongly discredited. Like I said before, I was a guilter until I looked beyond the rumors and gossip.

 

[SMK]

I freely admit to becoming a bit snarky at times. When I've recognised it I've left the forum for a bit.

Well, yes, so have I - before the acquittal. And then yes, it is good to vanish for a bit.

 

[sherlockh]

I've asked this before but no one has even tried to explain it to me. How is a crime scene selectively cleaned? By selectively I'm asking how all trace evidence of AK and RS were removed from the bedroom with just enough evidence to verify that AK did live there too in the rest of the house? While at the same time leaving all evidence of Rudy throughout the apartment including the Ms Kerchers bedroom.

Judge Hellman ruled that no crime of staging occurred. What evidence is there that shows AK and RS staged the crime scene please?
Thank you.

This just seems to keep going in circles imo. There really is no forensic evidence that puts AK and RS at the apartment that night and what little bit there was has been strongly discredited. Like I said before, I was a guilter until I looked beyond the rumors and gossip.

The gossip is that the cleaning was 'selective'. This has been explained many times. If you look at the violent acts committed against Meredith Kercher then most of those acts did not leave any DNA. Especially the acts attributed to AK and RS did not leave any DNA. The reason is simple. They had a knife in their hands. You don't leave DNA so easily anyway as was also explained during the trials. For example, the strangle must have been very forceful yet no DNA was left of that action. So I don't know if their was anything to clean in the bedroom. The area where the cleaning definitely happened is the bathroom.

There is plenty of evidence but the problem of the appeal was that the experts did not agree. This was the cause for doubt amongst the judges who did not want to convict on just bloody footprints and mixed DNA traces. I don't know exactly why since I don't believe there is anything 'normal' about having luminol footprints and mixed blood/DNA traces in your house. Especially not in the context of a very bloody murder scene. We will have to wait for the judges report to see what he says.

I understand you praise judge Hellmann. It would have been rather silly had he convicted them for the staging but not for the murder charge. Judges like Micheli and Massei thought otherwise about the staging. You can read their reports for evidence if you like.

 

[emyr]

Kokomani wasn't a suspect, yet he came forward as a witness and identified both AK and RS on the scene. IMO he would have never come forward if he was involved somehow himself. I think he did lie about the circumstances (bumping into them in the road) because he is far more the drug dealer then RG ever was. If he was there then most likely the reason was to provide drugs to the 3. This then explains the violent nature of the attack against Meredith (somewhat, as I don't want to use drug use as an 'excuse'). However, I don't believe we will hear much more from Kokomani again. The lawyers of RS will do anything to prevent him from speaking out. Besides that he might face charges for his previous testimony if he is going to change his story now. JMO.

Well, he does say that his black Golf was parked by the dumpsters near the cottage. I mean he SAYS it. And the video shows that Golf there prior to the murder.... prior to Meredith arriving home, prior to any time where he could have met up with Raffaelle and Amanda. And those videos were being published in the press at the time so he could surely have thought that he was about to get identified, and wanted to throw them off the trail. He also says he personally knew Guede (called him "cousin').

Since testifying he's been arrested for dealing drugs. Very hinky.

 

[SMK]

The gossip is that the cleaning was 'selective'. This has been explained many times. If you look at the violent acts committed against Meredith Kercher then most of those acts did not leave any DNA. Especially the acts attributed to AK and RS did not leave any DNA. The reason is simple. They had a knife in their hands. You don't leave DNA so easily anyway as was also explained during the trials. For example, the strangle must have been very forceful yet no DNA was left of that action. So I don't know if their was anything to clean in the bedroom. The area where the cleaning definitely happened is the bathroom.

There is plenty of evidence but the problem of the appeal was that the experts did not agree. This was the cause for doubt amongst the judges who did not want to convict on just bloody footprints and mixed DNA traces. I don't know exactly why since I don't believe there is anything 'normal' about having luminol footprints and mixed blood/DNA traces in your house. Especially not in the context of a very bloody murder scene. We will have to wait for the judges report to see what he says.

I understand you praise judge Hellmann. It would have been rather silly had he convicted them for the staging but not for the murder charge. Judges like Micheli and Massei thought otherwise about the staging. You can read their reports for evidence if you like.

If what you say at the start is true, then I could see that this would raise questions, indeed. There does seem to be a counter-fact to every fact on both sides. also, I guess Salem is correct that neither side has been neutral. It would seem that the police, the media, and the Knox counter-media had pro and contra thinking along very strong lines. I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest Knox and Sollecito were wrongly tried and convicted- and I respect Hellman's ruling. But I understand Massei and Micheli have a different view. Sometime I think the cases where the suspects confess are the only clear ones. Circumstantial evidence was used solely with the murder case of Deanna Hubbard.

 

[sherlockh]

Well, he does say that his black Golf was parked by the dumpsters near the cottage. I mean he SAYS it. And the video shows that Golf there prior to the murder.... prior to Meredith arriving home, prior to any time where he could have met up with Raffaelle and Amanda. And those videos were being published in the press at the time so he could surely have thought that he was about to get identified, and wanted to throw them off the trail. He also says he personally knew Guede (called him "cousin').

Since testifying he's been arrested for dealing drugs. Very hinky.

What video have you seen of his car? I have never heard of any videos besides the one showing a person with white clothing going towards the gate at about 9pm. No car in that video. There was testimony of the tow truck guy seeing a car parked at the gate. This was around 11pm. So if he parked his car there to deliver the drugs to the 3 then this must have been between 9 and 11pm. Lets say around 10pm.

 

[emyr]

Here is the blood on the tap:



And the blood stain on her pillow:



The blood from her ear didn't have to come from falling off. I find that implausible as well. It could very well have come from touching her ear, then the faucet.

I never found the luminol too difficult to explain, given all the manuals and expert warnings that it can not be used to determine whether a substance is actually blood. But what really hits it home for me, is the unknown female footprint. I doubt there was another woman there who stepped in blood.

The sink stuff is weird. Amanda's body was checked twice for cuts... no cuts. There's video of the sink, I can't see blood, but a close-up photo shows smeared blood. The handle shows the same smear look. I've seen another picture where it was just the smaller red smear. My guess is it's just that smaller red part and not the long smear that this picture makes it look like. The JREF forums have considered that it might be fake blood from the halloween blood makeup that had been used, since they couldn't find a confirmatory blood test for the tap stain. But the blood on the pillow seems to make that much less plausible.

When did Amanda's botched ear piercing take place?

 

[emyr]

What video have you seen of his car? I have never heard of any videos besides the one showing a person with white clothing going towards the gate at about 9pm. No car in that video. There was testimony of the tow truck guy seeing a car parked at the gate. This was around 11pm. So if he parked his car there to deliver the drugs to the 3 then this must have been between 9 and 11pm. Lets say around 10pm.

Argh. You got me. I'm going off of memory and I thought I remembered everyone saying there was CCTV footage that came out showing Knox exiting a black car at 8:53 pm. (the woman in white footage). Did that not have a black car in it?

 

[SMK]

The sink stuff is weird. Amanda's body was checked twice for cuts... no cuts. There's video of the sink, I can't see blood, but a close-up photo shows smeared blood. The handle shows the same smear look. I've seen another picture where it was just the smaller red smear. My guess is it's just that smaller red part and not the long smear that this picture makes it look like. The JREF forums have considered that it might be fake blood from the halloween blood makeup that had been used, since they couldn't find a confirmatory blood test for the tap stain. But the blood on the pillow seems to make that much less plausible.

When did Amanda's botched ear piercing take place?

Do not know, but recently enough that she thought of it and mentioned it.

 

[Salem]

If the discussion here eventually seemed one-sided, it was because analysis over time showed there was no evidence of AK's or RS' guilt. (Yes, an infected ear piercing can bleed.) Yet some who believed in AK's and RS' guilt nonetheless resorted instead to endless repetitions of misinformation and disinformation gleaned from tabloids and blogs. When every disagreement about a case eventually ends in a discussion of hearsay about an alleged cartwheel, increasing frustration is to be expected.

The appellate court's independent experts had the gallery doubled over with laughter at the bungling of Perugia LE. Yet somehow posters here were expected to pretend the evidence pro and con was equal both in quantity and in quality. That demanded that most of us pretend to believe a fiction.

From my view, what has distinguished this discussion is the constant repetition of untrue claims that were allowed to stand because they were worded in such a way that to counter them was to violate the TOS. I do appreciate the problem: I understand that mods don't have time to arbitrate the accuracy of posts. But if posters on the pro-innocence side sometimes seemed ungracious, it may have been because a poster or two (certainly not all) on the pro-guilty side engaged in relentless and dishonest word games.

<modsnip>

Sorry - I'm not buying this. First - analysis of the evidence did not prove conclusively that AK and RS had no part in this crime. That, in my opinion, is an inaccurate statement.

Everybody has the right to look at the facts and come up with THEIR OWN INTERPRETATION. Many looked at the facts, came up with their own interpretation and then decided that they were the only ones that were right. That's not how it works here. Everybody gets to do their OWN interpretation.

If the constant repetition of things one poster does not agree with, irritates him/her, he has the options of NOT RESPONDING or putting that poster on IGNORE.

Absolutely - nobody was "expected to pretend" anything. Posters were expected to be respectful of each other - NOT COMBATIVE.

The "untrue claims" were a matter of personal interpretation. The only people who really know what is true are AK, RS, RG and Meredith and any other person that was actually there. Everybody else's truth comes from deduction of the evidence available.

Everybody gets to deduce for themselves. If the cartwheel discussion was tiresome - it didn't need to be responded to. We are here to discuss and analyze not tell others they are wrong or can't think correctly for themselves.

Salem

Okay - this is last I am saying on this thread about this. All other moderation arguments will be dealt with by way of pm. You are more than welcome to disagree with me and say so - but not in the open thread. If there are other comments, please just pm me (or feel free to pm another mod if you choose). This is not to stop the discussion, but to get this thread back on topic.