Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[KaylynnCouture]

Police: Video Supports Lake Pirate Story

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/09/earlyshow/saturday/main6942375.shtml

(They're talking about the video that shows Tiffany and David driving to the lake, where they get pulled over by the police).

 

[laytonian]

I don't agree. The jet ski was worth money, or maybe one of them wanted it for themselves. Also, why wouldn't they want to dispose of a body that they killed and have it play out exactly as it has.

What's a used jet ski worth? A few hundred dollars? If this lake is truly controlled by drug cartels, a jet ski is small beans in comparison to the value of drugs, money and guns passing through.

If they wanted to dispose of the body (and jet ski) and hide the evidence, why did they let her live?

Why did they (reportedly) follow her to shore?

Why would they want it to play out as "bad drug pirates killed my husband", which would point back exactly to them, eventually?

Those are the very reasons I don't believe her story.

 

[laytonian]

Police: Video Supports Lake Pirate Story

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/09/earlyshow/saturday/main6942375.shtml

(They're talking about the video that shows Tiffany and David driving to the lake, where they get pulled over by the police).

I'm sorry; I don't understand what about that video, supports her story.
All it does is show that there were two jet skis, and that they were going to the lake.

....and it gives a timeline to show they headed to the Mexican side of the lake, in late afternoon, that same day. Why the rush?

What's so special about that lake?

They could have taken jet skis to Lake Powell (Utah/Arizona) or Lake Mead (Nevada), without danger, closer, and more beautiful.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

My hardest part about this story is....why did they want to see whatever it was they went to see. The ruins I think is what she called it. Am I just too old or too cautious to get this? I just can't see someone thinking "well, there is high risk...we know there are pirates in the area....but I really want to see this....want to go with me honey??? I know let's take the jet skis...it's only 10 miles." And what man wants to put his dear wife in danger like that?????to see something. My hinky meter hit HIGH on this one. They very well might have gone there to do something.....but the ruins had NOTHING to do with it. Whatever it was would be worth the risk (to them, not me) in my opinion....drugs.

She said they wanted to take pictures of the old church. But there are plenty of pictures of this old church available on the Internet (go to Google Images and search "falcon lake" "old church"). Sure, if it's not dangerous, I understand people enjoying taking their own photos of things like that. But doing an illegal border crossing in a well-known drug cartel war zone to get your own photo?

Like you, I'm not buying it. The number one reason for *anyone* crossing from the US to Mexico or vice versa via that lake is illegal drug transport. In the absence of any other plausible explanation for the Hartley's crossing, that's the one I'm using for my operating hypothesis. This was a shore-to-shore crossing, not consistent with an ordinary exercise in recreational fishing or jet-skiing.

 

[laytonian]

PS....fwiw, last night I saw an interview on Greta with a witness. I've tried to find a transcript or youtube, but I don't believe there is one...................anyway, the witness had his back to the camera and spoke about when Tiffany came ripping up the water with the fishing boat following her. The fishing boat eventually turned and headed the other way. He said as Tiffany approached she was crying and SOBBING and when she reached shore she was trembling. She quickly told him what happened and had said that when she realized her husband was shot, she turned around and tried to get him onto her ski. She rolled him over and he was gurgling........I'm not going to say what she SAW when she turned him over, FOX warned it was graphic.

Anyway, what this witness said sounds like what LE refers to as 'excited utterences,' which they use every day in a court of law. It's probably the closest you're going to get to what happened.

I wouldn't doubt if Tiffany is STILL in shock from this ordeal.

She said she saw brains "falling down" or something like that.

That "witness" saw no crime. That's the point.

Boats zip all over lakes; if one truly was following her, and she was in danger, why weren't they shooting? Why didn't they follow her all the way in, and shoot her?

Was the boat even following her, or just behind her?

 

[KaylynnCouture]

I'm sorry; I don't understand what about that video, supports her story.
All it does is show that there were two jet skis, and that they were going to the lake.

....and it gives a timeline to show they headed to the Mexican side of the lake, in late afternoon, that same day. Why the rush?

What's so special about that lake?

They could have taken jet skis to Lake Powell (Utah/Arizona) or Lake Mead (Nevada), without danger, closer, and more beautiful.

I agree..I don't understand how that video supports the fact that pirates attacked them. All it does is prove that they were both headed towards the lake.

I think the cops are thinking it backs up Tiffany's story about where they ate lunch that day (Subway), that they went to the lake at whatever time, etc so then she must be telling the truth about the rest of it (that's my interpretation of the cops thinking).

 

[KaylynnCouture]

She said she saw brains "falling down" or something like that.

That "witness" saw no crime. That's the point.

Boats zip all over lakes; if one truly was following her, and she was in danger, why weren't they shooting? Why didn't they follow her all the way in, and shoot her?

Was the boat even following her, or just behind her?

From what I understand, the witness saw Tiffany speeding around on her jetski, with a boat of men behind her.

Tiffany claims they were shooting at her and fired several times as she sped away. So, according to Tiffany, they WERE shooting. Apparently no one saw that part.

 

[laytonian]

From what I understand, the witness saw Tiffany speeding around on her jetski, with a boat of men behind her.

Tiffany claims they were shooting at her and fired several times as she sped away. So, according to Tiffany, they WERE shooting. Apparently no one saw that part.

Yes, I understand that. The boat of men behind her, but they didn't follow her in.

She claims to have escaped over 7 miles of water, but they couldn't catch her -- nor could they shoot her in all of that time, although they were able to shoot her husband.

 

[Tuffy]

From what I understand, the witness saw Tiffany speeding around on her jetski, with a boat of men behind her.

Tiffany claims they were shooting at her and fired several times as she sped away. So, according to Tiffany, they WERE shooting. Apparently no one saw that part.

...or heard it. According to witnesses out boating on the lake, it was quiet that day. No one heard gun shots.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

The latter doesn't necessarily imply the former. If they think she killed him on the lake, they'd still be searching the lake (for both the body and other evidence, such as a wound-matching weapon she might have dumped, but that "pirates" would have been very unlikely to dump).

Ok, forget the last part. They still act like they believe her.
They have SAID it over and over.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

...or heard it. According to witnesses out boating on the lake, it was quiet that day. No one heard gun shots.

There are witnesses that heard gunshots. I'll have to try to find the link.
I don't remember where I read it or watched it. But, there were people in a boat on the lake that heard gunshots.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

U.S./Mexico border control has been a hot-button issue for many years now. I would hate to see this *event* (whatever this *event* ultimately turns out to be) manipulated in order to inflame the border control conflict between the U.S. & Mexico.

Personally, I'm eager to see the US/Mexico border tightly sealed by extremely aggressive enforcement. Consistent with that view, I have zero sympathy for illegal border-crossers, and that includes US citizens with surnames like "Hartley". People who are illegally crossing the US-Mexico border are up to no good.

 

[darnudes]

I'm on the side of non-belief at this point...not to say I can't change my mind...but; I want to know more about the moving to CO. part. Maybe she didn't want to move there? What was the reason and the circumstances surrounding that move??? Just curious.....

I'm not sure about the move - maybe for his work?

Dr Lillian Glass is going to be on blogtalk radio tomorrow discussing this case. Let me know if you would like a link to the show.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Ok, forget the last part. They still act like they believe her.
They have SAID it over and over.

"They" said that about balloon-boy's parents too . . . even after the parents had dragged the vomiting-from-stress little boy onto TV shows where the boy had blurted out "but you said it was for the show" (re his period in hiding) on camera!

For investigators, there is no benefit to letting on that they don't believe someone until the case is all sewed up with plenty of hard evidence in the bag. Note that the US sheriff has flatly declined to accept his Mexican counterpart's offer to have his personnel go over to the Mexican side and help with the search.

 

[Tuffy]

There are witnesses that heard gunshots. I'll have to try to find the link.
I don't remember where I read it or watched it. But, there were people in a boat on the lake that heard gunshots.

Two conflicting accounts apparently. One witness says he heard gunshots, while the rest of the boaters didn't hear anything. Here is the link:

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/articles/falcon-117639-heights-police.html

A third party apparently came forward and told deputies of seeing a personal watercraft speeding back from Mexico while a boat followed behind, firing gunshots.

Only a handful of fishermen remain along the Salado river, which pours into Falcon Lake. None told investigators they heard anything while out on the quiet waters on Thursday.

 

[darnudes]

Personally, I'm eager to see the US/Mexico border tightly sealed by extremely aggressive enforcement. Consistent with that view, I have zero sympathy for illegal border-crossers, and that includes US citizens with surnames like "Hartley". People who are illegally crossing the US-Mexico border are up to no good.

Yep, interesting how many people seem to block out the fact that the Hartley's were in Mexico illegally. They lived in Mexico and could have easily visited the site legally if they wanted to. Strange how they preferred to do an illegal boarder crossing.

If this story can ever be confirmed then the Hartley's paid a very high price for their stupidity, it seems they knew the risks and openly flouted them. Now we have the alleged widow doing the mother of all media jaunts to decry the evils of the Mexican government. I've yet to see Tiffany Hartley take responsibility for her actions by going there in the first place.

 

[darnudes]

Well things just got a whole lot more political. News article on the Sheriff of Zapata County, Sigifredo Gonzalez. Seems the Sheriff has been banging this drum for a long time.

Snipped:

The search continues for the body of Texan David Hartley, the American man who was reportedly shot while he and his wife were jet skiing on the Mexican side of a border-straddling lake. David's wife, Tiffany Hartley, has made many media appearances during the week, and has become the face of the incident. But Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez is the one who first told reporters he suspected lake "pirates" were to blame for the alleged shooting, which put the story on the national radar. And it turns out this isn't the first time Gonzalez has been in the national press talking up threats from south of the border.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/the_search_continues_for_the.php

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Moss? Really? :waitasec: The zoom on your computer must be a lot stronger than mine - lol. If you can see moss, then what the heck are the floating things? The inlet can't be that shallow - it flooded an entire town. The little mission they went to photograph and the parts of buildings you see on the banks are what has been exposed due to extreme drought. :angel:

Could be warning buoys marking very shallow areas, so boats won't be damaged. Much of this area used to be dry land and was flooded years back for a dam or something, so there are likely to be a lot of unexpected peaks in the lake bottom.

 

[Elphaba]

Well things just got a whole lot more political. News article on the Sheriff of Zapata County, Sigifredo Gonzalez. Seems the Sheriff has been banging this drum for a long time.

Snipped:

The search continues for the body of Texan David Hartley, the American man who was reportedly shot while he and his wife were jet skiing on the Mexican side of a border-straddling lake. David's wife, Tiffany Hartley, has made many media appearances during the week, and has become the face of the incident. But Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez is the one who first told reporters he suspected lake "pirates" were to blame for the alleged shooting, which put the story on the national radar. And it turns out this isn't the first time Gonzalez has been in the national press talking up threats from south of the border.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/the_search_continues_for_the.php

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm...

 

[darnudes]

Sure do Elphaba!

Seems the Sheriff was not happy he missed out on funding. Now his greatest fear has been realised - not being able to retrieve the body of a missing American. Uhuh.