Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[pinkpuddytat]

Well things just got a whole lot more political. News article on the Sheriff of Zapata County, Sigifredo Gonzalez. Seems the Sheriff has been banging this drum for a long time.

Snipped:

The search continues for the body of Texan David Hartley, the American man who was reportedly shot while he and his wife were jet skiing on the Mexican side of a border-straddling lake. David's wife, Tiffany Hartley, has made many media appearances during the week, and has become the face of the incident. But Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez is the one who first told reporters he suspected lake "pirates" were to blame for the alleged shooting, which put the story on the national radar. And it turns out this isn't the first time Gonzalez has been in the national press talking up threats from south of the border.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/the_search_continues_for_the.php

Well, there *have* been several confirmed "pirate" incidents on the lake, but they involved robbery, not murder. I wouldn't be surprised if the sheriff's initial thoughts when the report of the incident was new, was that it was the "pirates" again, and that something had happened to escalate the encounter. It's a very legitimate concern of his, when innocent pleasure boaters and fishing enthusiasts minding their own business on the US side of the lake get attacked and robbed. But I'm sure he's doubting by now that "pirates" were responsible for this incident, since there are no witnesses to the actual crime, no concrete evidence that the events described by Mrs. Hartley actually took place, and conflicting and improbable details in her various retellings of the story.

I think *all* the sheriffs of border counties are "banging this drum" and with good reason. But I also think that any of them, including this one, would be royally pissed if they discovered someone had tried to take advantage of the high-profile border crime problem to commit and cover up a very different crime of their own. That may be a factor that Mrs. Hartley didn't take into account, if in fact what really happened here is that she planned to kill her husband (or have him killed). If Sheriff Gonzalez discovers that's what happened, he'll be pushing hard to see that she gets the book thrown at her mercilessly.

The other possibility -- and one which would also anger the sheriff -- is that David Hartley really was murdered, but by rival drug traffickers or by pirates who knew he was a drug trafficker and would be carrying large amounts of cash and/or marketable drugs. If the latter is what actually happened, it would make sense that Tiffany would hastily concoct a hole-ridden story to explain his disappearance (and possible subsequent discovery of his body) that wouldn't involved admitting that she was participating in drug trafficking and belonged in prison. And if David generally did most of the actual carrying of the drugs and money or had been surreptitiously seen taking possession of drugs or money, that would explain why he got killed/disappeared and Tiffany was allowed to flee back to the US. In that scenario, the killers wouldn't be terribly worried about what Tiffany would say to authorities, or how authorities might follow up on anything she said -- they got what they wanted and it wouldn't make much difference to them if she made up a story or told the truth.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

So because she seemed "terrified" and because she "was unable to stop sobbing... and kept asking where her husband's body was" the Sheriff can "safely say that she had nothing to do with her husband's death"?!

Is this the extent of the investigation that this Sheriff conducted before coming to his conclusion? Observing *sobbing* and listening to a woman exclaim "where is my husband's body"?!

The sheriff can *say* anything. Doesn't mean he believes what he's saying. Investigators have lots of reasons for saying less or different from what they really believe.

If I was an investigator and wanted someone like this to believe that I believed her story, even as the national and international media were starting to fill up with with suspicious questions, I'd say exactly what he said. And offer my shoulder for her further sobs any time she wanted it.

 

[sorrell skye]

Well things just got a whole lot more political. News article on the Sheriff of Zapata County, Sigifredo Gonzalez. Seems the Sheriff has been banging this drum for a long time.

Snipped:

The search continues for the body of Texan David Hartley, the American man who was reportedly shot while he and his wife were jet skiing on the Mexican side of a border-straddling lake. David's wife, Tiffany Hartley, has made many media appearances during the week, and has become the face of the incident. But Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez is the one who first told reporters he suspected lake "pirates" were to blame for the alleged shooting, which put the story on the national radar. And it turns out this isn't the first time Gonzalez has been in the national press talking up threats from south of the border.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/the_search_continues_for_the.php

TY for posting this.

Based on the info in the article (as well as the recent history of armed robberies of fishermen on the U.S. side of the lake), I'm inclined to wonder if the Sheriff isn't predisposed to believe the *story* (Ms. Hartley's word of choice when describing the events of Sept. 30).

Oh - and this is what I was referring to when I said I hope this *event* (whatever this *event turns out to be) isn't manipulated (for political leverage) and used to inflame the border control conflict.

I totally understand that drug trafficking, arms trafficking, human trafficking, etc., are serious problems, and reasonable, intelligent leaders need to come together to craft solutions.

I totally get what Sheriff Gonzalez is saying, and it angers me that his county hasn't received enough funding & the resources needed to address these issues.

But I would hate for this *event* to be used opportunistically for political gain, since, IMO, there is currently no objective evidence available to confirm what this *event* is.

I would also be very distressed if this was used to stir the cauldron of ethnic conflict.

MOO

 

[pinkpuddytat]

BBM

That is an interesting angle that I haven't heard yet. That makes sense she could have seemed to be much younger. I could see them mistaking her for a child.

This raises a new possibility, though improbable: Possibly a different kind of traffickers than we've been thinking about thought they saw an opportunity to grab a pretty little blonde girl, got what they presumed to be her father out of the way, and then got close enough to discover she wasn't a child after all . . . and then bolted from the scene, figuring "pirates" would be blamed. Doesn't explain the disappearance of his body, though (any number of people might have availed themselves of a free jet-ski by the time any real searching had started).

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Does she really believe his body was "dragged" into the weeds?

Granted she might just not be thinking clearly when she says things like that, but I can't imagine what purpose anyone would have in dragging his body into the weeds, where it would be found very nearly as fast as if it had been left in the lake or washed ashore, giving a fat clue to the location/direction of the killers just after the killing.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Texas Sheriff Presents Evidence Backing Up Mexican Lake Pirate Attack

"Blood smeared on Tiffany Hartley's life jacket is nearly invisible to the naked eye but is among the evidence that corroborates her description of an attack by Mexican pirates.."

"'I just believe her' Gonzalez said late in the afternoon."

"Gonzalez also said that Border Patrol officers saw the couple eating lunch at Subway shortly before the incident — information that matches exactly with Tiffany Hartley's description of the couple's day."

"The blood on the life jacket, which has been sent to a crime lab for DNA testing, is faint — consistent with the vest having been wet when it was stained, Gonzalez said."

"In addition, he said, an independent witness with no connection to the Hartleys told investigators that he looked out onto the lake from Zapata to see Tiffany Hartley whipping across the water on her Wave Runner and a boat with several men in it pursuing her."

Snipped from: http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_16283930?source=commented-

So, there's the evidence that leads the Texas sheriff to believe Tiffany. Thoughts, everyone?

My thought is that he's speaking for an audience of one: Tiffany Hartley. What the rest of the world thinks he thinks is simply irrelevant to the investigation.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

So, they have evidence that backs up her story that we have not seen?
Interesting.

I guess it boils down to if you trust LE on this or not. They say her story has been backed up. Witness, blood, etc...
So, until I see otherwise, I think she's telling the truth.

Thing is, when the sheriff lists a few bits of preposterously unconvincing "evidence" of her innocence, it's hard to take his claim of additional "evidence" very seriously. They had lunch at Subway at a certain time, so of course she told the sheriff that. And she cried really hard? Well I'm sure anyone pretending they just witnessed someone killed their beloved spouse would do that. And traces of his blood on her vest? First of all, I *very* much doubt that conclusive DNA test results on those traces could have been back by the time he said that (or even by now), and secondly, even if it was, evidence of *his* blood on *her* jacket hardly meets my threshold for proof that she didn't kill him! A jury would be hard-pressed not to burst out laughing if such information was presented in court as "evidence" the accused wasn't involved in the murder. So what's the yet-to-be-disclosed additional "evidence" of her innocence? That she said her husband was wearing an X-colored shirt and the dashcam video from the traffic stop earlier that day showed he was indeed wearing that color shirt?

And I haven't seen any claim by anyone that any "witness" saw anything like attackers in the vicinity of an injured/dead David Hartley.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I'm sorry; I don't understand what about that video, supports her story.
All it does is show that there were two jet skis, and that they were going to the lake.

....and it gives a timeline to show they headed to the Mexican side of the lake, in late afternoon, that same day. Why the rush?

What's so special about that lake?

They could have taken jet skis to Lake Powell (Utah/Arizona) or Lake Mead (Nevada), without danger, closer, and more beautiful.

No, not closer. The Hartley's were living in McAllen, Texas. Less than 2 hours from Falcon Lake.

Did you think they came from Colorado? :waitasec:

 

[pinkpuddytat]

I'm curious as to why Tiffany thinks these men were pirates, as opposed to just men on a boat who were angry over something, drug cartel men, etc. What made her specifically identify them as pirates?

Why disagree with the first suspicion voiced by the sheriff? (Especially if you really, really want the sheriff to believe you.)

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Is this new information? The part about the gunmen firing "a few more" times on her way back? I can't get past the fact that when she tries to retrieve her husband, they let her go only to chase her again and fire "a few more" shots. :waitasec:

And *totally* missed both her and her jet-ski . . . despite the fact (according to her) that they managed to nail her husband right in the back of the head, when firing from their speedboat as he raced away from them on his jet-ski.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

What's a used jet ski worth? A few hundred dollars? If this lake is truly controlled by drug cartels, a jet ski is small beans in comparison to the value of drugs, money and guns passing through.

If they wanted to dispose of the body (and jet ski) and hide the evidence, why did they let her live?

Why did they (reportedly) follow her to shore?

Why would they want it to play out as "bad drug pirates killed my husband", which would point back exactly to them, eventually?

Those are the very reasons I don't believe her story.

BBM

IMO, a lot. These drugrunners won't walk into a Yamaha dealership and buy a Waverunner. They stole the boats they are using on the lake. I read one article about them making the fisherman get out, take off ALL their clothes and they took the clothes and the boat.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

FALCON LAKE – The Texas Department of Public Safety released video footage of David and Tiffany Hartley. It was taken just hours before the murder on Falcon Lake.

It shows DPS troopers pulling over the Hartley’s at 11:30 a.m. in Rio Grande City last Thursday. That’s about three hours before Tiffany says Mexican pirates killed her husband on Falcon Lake. Troopers pulled them over for an expired registration sticker on their trailer. The two jet skis can be seen in the back. David Hartley’s voice can be heard on the video.

A DPS spokesman says David Hartley would have received a ticket but they saw two trucks pass by with marijuana in the back. They let the Hartley’s go after about 10 minutes and moved on.


http://www.krgv.com/news/local/story/DPS-Releases-Hartley-Footage/EgRZrhfMlESq8QM2bZJ4rw.cspx

Video Clip

http://www.krgv.com/mediacenter/[email protected]

Huh? Two trucks that had plainly visible, identifiable marijuana on them? Must be quite a bit more to that side story . . . Perhaps the DPS spokesman misspoke, and the officers actually got a *call* that they were needed at the scene of a more urgent matter involving trucks loaded with marijuana. Just makes no sense at all that police officers would be in the middle of a traffic stop and suddenly "see" trucks loaded with marijuana passing by.

Maybe I'm just naive about the brazenness of drug traffickers down in that neck of the woods, but I would think they'd at least throw a tarp over their giant stashes before driving around in broad daylight, so that police officers would need some other probable cause to pull them over and check to see what's in the truck.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

I am not following you here....you asked why do people work in Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq...I took to mean as dangerous places, people putting themselves in dangerous places and someone said for big $$$. I don't get your answer...and I am not at all being rude or meaning to be. People do put themselves at high risk for those jobs...I have friends to prove it. 3 right now are in Afghanistan working. Had 1 in Venzuelo (sp?) but he is here now.

And lots of people put themselves at high risk for lucrative jobs trafficking drugs between the US and Mexico too.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

No one was paying them to go see the ruins.

Or at least according to Tiffany's version of events, no one was paying them to go "see the ruins".

 

[samsmom]

I'm a fence sitter and am coming up with a few things to ponder and go hmmm? :

If this couple was involved in illegal activities, you'd think they would be sure not to attract law enforcement (i.e. update their car/trailer tags)

Are pirates like those other types of terrorists where they would brag or claim ownership of this crime?

Is there presence of a border patrol on this lake? Is this a place where people can easily go (illegally) back and forth over the borders and to dry land? For instance, drug runners?

These questions may seem trivial or silly but I'm like a few others here trying to figure out why they would endanger themselves over a old church. I'm wondering how many other people might use this same method of transportation to sight see in this area?

At first, I thought the wife didn't act upset enough but like someone mentioned here, she may have been in shock. I couldn't imagine myself going through what she said happened. That's probably why it's hard to believe.

IMO and Godspeed to the families involved.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Also, why wouldn't they want to dispose of a body that they killed and have it play out exactly as it has.

Because pirates/drug traffickers/any sort of criminals doing "business" on this lake wouldn't want the whole the lake and perimeter and airspace above crawling with LE search teams for the following couple of weeks. Just leave the body out in the open where it will be found immediately, and the LE will all go away and business can resume after only a very brief interruption.

 

[Tuffy]

And *totally* missed both her and her jet-ski . . . despite the fact (according to her) that they managed to nail her husband right in the back of the head, when firing from their speedboat as he raced away from them on his jet-ski.

I know, right? I target shoot. It is not easy to make a head shot at much of a distance. That is when you have your stance right, and sights lined up just right.

The gunman had to shoot David while in a small boat bouncing along on the lake. His target (David) would be moving away from the boat on a jet ski. The jet ski goes much faster than the boat, and bounces much more too.

The gunmen would have had an easier time shooting Tiffany if they did it when she went back to try to retrieve David, but they didn't. They waited until she got back on her jet ski, and sped away.

 

[laytonian]

BBM

IMO, a lot. These drugrunners won't walk into a Yamaha dealership and buy a Waverunner. They stole the boats they are using on the lake. I read one article about them making the fisherman get out, take off ALL their clothes and they took the clothes and the boat.

The highest price for a used wave runner/jet ski on eBay, TWO of them, with trailer, is $6500.

But....the story you mention. They took the boat, and clothes. And didn't kill anyone.

In THIS case, there's a killing.....WHY?

 

[laytonian]

No, not closer. The Hartley's were living in McAllen, Texas. Less than 2 hours from Falcon Lake.

Did you think they came from Colorado? :waitasec:

No. But they were close to moving, and would be able to boat ANYWHERE in the Southwest before the weather got cold.

There was no boating emergency

I just don't see any reason to "have to" visit Falcon Lake, when there's so much other water around that area. The entire Gulf of Mexico, Corpus Christi Bay, the South Padre Island area (closer than Falcon Lake to McAllen), etc, etc.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

He said, "The Mexican government said yes, then backed off and said, 'No, we don't want the Americans over here.' We need to use the American resources that we have, because that area of the lake is controlled by the Zetas, there is an island on that lake where the Zetas really operate, the drug cartels. If we mean business about trying to recover David Hartley's body we need American involvement and the Mexican government needs to be relentless to find it. They are intimidated now, they really won't go near the area where the Zetas operate."

"Early Show" co-anchor Harry Smith said, "We need to stop and pause a second because even the Mexican authorities themselves are clearly not in control. It's the drug cartel that is in control because…the Mexican authorities backed away when they were threatened."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/08/earlyshow/main6938718.shtml

Some of the members of the Zetas are former Special Forces soldiers from the Mexican Army. It apparently pays more to side with the drug cartel than try to stop them.