Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[Kimberlyd125]

ITA
Also convicted in the "Court of Public Opinion"-

Gary Condit - Chandra Levy murder
Lindy Chamberlain- accused of murdering her child
Richard Jewell- accused of planting a pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics
Diena Thompson - speculation/criticism/blame in the murder of her daughter
Sad.

They are all sad. But the one I bolded kept me up at night for months.
Go back and read some of Somer's threads like numbers 20-30 or so. It got so bad it was like a war zone. It was HORRIBLE.

DT was bashed and blamed for months. Picked apart. Stomped in the ground. She received death threats.
Someone is behind bars for Somer's death - and it aint DT!!!!

I learned a lot about snap judgements in that case. I hope every one did.

 

[WellDone]

Yes, they were. But we didn't know that, early on.

BB
.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=211853

There have been quite a few posted - with LE support... & even where they stated they believed her & felt no need for her to take a polygraph.....

 

[dreamweaver]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/18/texas.missing.american/index.html?hpt=T2

The wife of an American reportedly shot dead by gunmen believed linked to a Mexican drug gang gave an eight-hour interview and provided a detailed statement to federal and state authorities in Mexico, she said Monday.
snipped'''

The Stratfor report, which cites anonymous sources, noted that David Hartley worked for an oil and gas company with operations in Reynosa, Mexico. The couple had lived there for two years and had only moved to McAllen within the past few months, the report said. The truck they drove to Falcon Lake on September 30 still had a license plate from Tamaulipas state.
======

This is an interesting bit of news.
I had wondered why there was no info about his job or any talk from his co workers.

Any chance he did have an ulterior motive to be on the lake that day?
Just asking..

IMO: I find it hard to believe the story Tiffany tells.
Obviously something happened that day on the lake and David is missing, but
did it happen the way she has described?
I think there is more to the story and to what happened
to David.

 

[dreamweaver]

Just throwing this out there:

Maybe this was not an innocent day on the lake, an innocent look at a drowned church,
maybe this is an international spy ring or maybe David worked for more than an oil/gas company business, maybe he worked against the Mexican cartels?

Maybe Tiffany knows more than she has said about his job and why they were on the lake that day, why someone would want to kill David?

If so, that might explain why her story seems so 'off' to some of us.

JMO.

 

[corq]

Gotta admit I didn't believe her story one bit, but the beheading of the official certainly gives me pause. I personally can't see why a drug cartel would draw additional fire onto themselves with another, more high-profile murder if her story was bogus. It seems like the cartels are intent on sending a msg to leave them and their business alone, and surely if she were lying they would not up the ante and take that upon themselves as well.

Only an opinion, and I admit I haven't read up on all facets of this very intriguing case.

I'm thinking (my opinion only mind you) that the death of the investigator was an unhappy coincidence that simply leans in favor of Tiffany's story, but might work out to be a red herring.

Any investigator assigned to a case alleging pirate involvement might engage an investigator *already* on a hit list, for previous investigation work, and the criminal element region seems to keep a bounty on local police and investigators anyway.

It casts credence to the treachery of the criminal organizations in the region, but I'm not yet persuaded that this is all there is to the story.

That said, I'm not sure we'll ever know.

 

[dreamweaver]

I may be far behind posting news and info from the web, but here is a blog.
I am not snipping any info from it, but
it makes for good reading.
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/10/falcon_lake_case_closed_five_r.php


http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/10/tiffany_young-hartley_a_csi_ex.php

Another interesting Houston Press blog on the physics on what happened, how and when on the lake that day.

All food for thought.

 

[fran]

Are we thinking of the same place? I'm familiar with Matamoros, across from Brownsville, Texas.

Matamoros has an awful reputation; worse than Tijuana. In 1989, they had 60 unsolved disappearances between January 1st and spring break time. That's when a student named Mark Kilroy disappeared.

"Floating in the pot with spiders, scorpions and other items that could scarcely be identified, they found Mark Kilroy's brain."
More from TruTV's Crime Library.

The 12 murders by the religious cult/drug smugglers, one of whom was Kilroy, were even written up in People magazine. Highly publicized.

Even the name "Matamoros" scares the **** out of me.

LOL, yeah, we're talking about the same Matamoros, or however you spell it.

I'd never heard that info before. hmmmm.............interesting.

Anyway, SOME of my son's, wife's family live in Matamoros and he's been going there for the past 16 years. During the past few years, I've talked to him about the increased violence across the border, and he always assured me the PART of Matamoros he went to were safe. I'm not sure how long ago he told me that, but I do know he went to that area last Xmas. Now, I'm not sure he actually crossed over to Mexico, at that time. But I think he did.

My son's inlaws have a business in Matamoros and have a large home there but also a few years ago they purchased a home in Brownsville also. I think around '07. Anyway, up until recently, they just used the home in Brownsville, infrequently. But when I talked to my son the other night, he said they've pretty well moved over to Brownsville. It was getting too dangerous in Matamoros. They have five children.

Anyway, I said, "I thought you told me Matamoros was safe?" and he said that was BEFORE, but it's too dangerous now.

HTH
fran

PS.....and about drug cartels being in the U.S., I read that recently as well. I know there's even a case at AMW that was from here in Chula Vista. There was a guy who was no longer a member, but had been in a cartel. He formed a group here and were kidnapping people, concentrating on Mexican, successful business people in this area. Anyway, one victim's family called LE and there was a gun battle here on the streets of Chula Vista. They managed to save the victim but lost one of the perps. That's why it was on AMW...............but UNTIL that shoot-out, Chula Vista LE didn't know they were here on this side of the border...............PLUS, there's been murders here in the U.S. by cartels for $$ owed................a few years ago there was that family in Florida, husband, wife, two small children, gunned down inside their SUV along a highway. They had recently moved to Florida from Brownsville and it turned out the family owed drug $$$$$$$$$$$.....fran

 

[Levi]

Tonight @ 9 PM ET Body Language Expert Dr. Lillian Glass will weigh in on Tiffany Hartley's body language.

Here is the link to listen: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/levipage/2010/10/19/levi-page-show

 

[oh_gal]

Just throwing this out there:

Maybe this was not an innocent day on the lake, an innocent look at a drowned church,
maybe this is an international spy ring or maybe David worked for more than an oil/gas company business, maybe he worked against the Mexican cartels?

Maybe Tiffany knows more than she has said about his job and why they were on the lake that day, why someone would want to kill David?

If so, that might explain why her story seems so 'off' to some of us.

JMO.

Not being sarcastic, or snarky, or anything but sincere here...

If that were the case, I would think it would be dangerous for her to be seen on tv, telling any kind of story (true or fictional). I would think someone would want her to keep the secrets that she knows, and the best way to do that would be to silence her, too.

I guess he could have been involved in something illegal or top secret, and maybe she just had no clue, which would explain her not thinking twice about making public statements/appearances.

OK, I'm going back to watching the true crime channel again.

 

[hollyblue]

Not being sarcastic, or snarky, or anything but sincere here...

If that were the case, I would think it would be dangerous for her to be seen on tv, telling any kind of story (true or fictional). I would think someone would want her to keep the secrets that she knows, and the best way to do that would be to silence her, too.

I guess he could have been involved in something illegal or top secret, and maybe she just had no clue, which would explain her not thinking twice about making public statements/appearances.

OK, I'm going back to watching the true crime channel again.

I truly thought after the investigators beheading, she would curtail her appearances, but that didn't happen. I also thought that some kind of logical sense might be brought to light in the expectation of his body being discovered/searched for. That hasn't happened either. JMO...either she's running on all emotions or just a little star struck. I'm sure that many have tried and explained the situation, but it seems to no avail. ETA: OR it may be that she is well aware that his body will never be found and is just to deflect the attention ....still on his body...instead of her "imperfect recollection" of the "story".

Interested to see what the investigators on the US side say about any new info found in her latest (8 or 12 hour dissertation?)....if anything.

Also, the story of the baby cartel who the PI said was responsible for DH's shooting ...is in fact deceased...and because of that shooting.

IMO

 

[AnaTeresa]

I've not watched every interview, so I'm sure the degree her statements are contradictory - BUT, in my evidence class (in law school), the professor stated multiple times that witness statements will not be the same in every retelling. Something will always be different - if their retelling remains static, that's a sign of a rehearsed, inaccurate statement. If what the witness saw was particularly brutal or shocking, some witnesses will remember with clarity - but others will have trouble with their recall.

Again, I'm not sure how contradictory her statements are, or even where the line falls between muddled, traumatized witness and someone who is falsifying their recollections. It's difficult to tell how this case will go - but I'm still on the side of tragic victim.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

I've not watched every interview, so I'm sure the degree her statements are contradictory - BUT, in my evidence class (in law school), the professor stated multiple times that witness statements will not be the same in every retelling. Something will always be different - if their retelling remains static, that's a sign of a rehearsed, inaccurate statement. If what the witness saw was particularly brutal or shocking, some witnesses will remember with clarity - but others will have trouble with their recall.

Again, I'm not sure how contradictory her statements are, or even where the line falls between muddled, traumatized witness and someone who is falsifying their recollections. It's difficult to tell how this case will go - but I'm still on the side of tragic victim.

Bingo.....I would be more alarmed if she sounded like a robot. In her personal statements, not ones made by the media, I didn't fine her to be changing her story. The root of the story seems to be the same, in my opinion. Now I will say that different media outlets and so called media outlets have given incorrect information, or information that may contradict one another.

 

[laytonian]

Any chance he did have an ulterior motive to be on the lake that day?
Just asking..

IMO: I find it hard to believe the story Tiffany tells.
Obviously something happened that day on the lake and David is missing, but
did it happen the way she has described?
I think there is more to the story and to what happened to David.

To me, it's not the "what", but the "why".

Why were they attacked, and why was only one of them killed?

(The bad side of me, wonders if maybe TH didn't want to move to Colorado, because of a relationship she had.)

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I've not watched every interview, so I'm sure the degree her statements are contradictory - BUT, in my evidence class (in law school), the professor stated multiple times that witness statements will not be the same in every retelling. Something will always be different - if their retelling remains static, that's a sign of a rehearsed, inaccurate statement. If what the witness saw was particularly brutal or shocking, some witnesses will remember with clarity - but others will have trouble with their recall.

Again, I'm not sure how contradictory her statements are, or even where the line falls between muddled, traumatized witness and someone who is falsifying their recollections. It's difficult to tell how this case will go - but I'm still on the side of tragic victim.

ITA with this.
I'm sure it was pretty traumatic to see her husband shot in the head. So, I can see why every little detail is not exact everytime she speaks.
And, your explanation in the first paragraph makes a ton of sense to me.

Thanks.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Statements from David's father snipped below. IMO it sounds a lot like TH as in ready to move on, just want the body, etc...

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/hartely-118203-hope-lost.html

Hartley's family has not lost hope despite no official developments

Young who says he is not familiar with the dynamics of the area, said he is having a tough time keeping up with the alleged developments in the case. Several names of suspects have surfaced but none have led to an arrest or a body.

"They can throw around all the names they want," he said. "I don’t know any of these people. It’s so far out of my even being able to comprehend. This is new territory for me, and I’m trying to understand it."

A motive, he said, is not what the family is looking for.

"It doesn’t matter how or who or why this happened," he said. "The main thing is we just want to get David back. There’s people that know where (the body) is, and all we really want is David’s remains so that people can move forward and get on with their lives."

Young says the family has not lost hope.

"Hand over the remains and we can be good," he said. "That’s really all we want."

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM--Details please?

Mexico: descent into chaos
DHS: Mexican assassin teams targeting U.S. law enforcement
Published 7 April 2010

Mexico is deteriorating into anarchy, and there is a spill-over effect: DHS issued an alert to law enforcement units in western Texas, warning that Mexican drug cartels -- specifically, the Barrio Azteca gang -- are now targeting U.S. law enforcement personnel for assassination in retaliation for a recent crackdown on members of the gang; Mexican criminal gangs already routinely kill policemen, judges, and politicians (and their families, too) -- often in the most gruesome manner in order to send a message to others -- and they have now taken on the Mexican military as well

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

To me, it's not the "what", but the "why".

Why were they attacked, and why was only one of them killed?

(The bad side of me, wonders if maybe TH didn't want to move to Colorado, because of a relationship she had.)

I didn't hear it all but Sheriff Gonzalez was on HLN and he said they believe it was a case of mistaken identity.

One cartel gang had just killed someone in another cartel on that Thursday and the cartel cruising the lake believed that the other gang members would be coming to retaliate.

IMO

 

[laytonian]

I didn't hear it all but Sheriff Gonzalez was on HLN and he said they believe it was a case of mistaken identity.

One cartel gang had just killed someone in another cartel on that Thursday and the cartel cruising the lake believed that the other gang members would be coming to retaliate.

IMO

Yes, that's the theory promoted by the private intelligence organization STRATFOR, a non-LE organization (which should not be) privy to the investigative reports.

 

[Intermezzo]

Statements from David's father snipped below. IMO it sounds a lot like TH as in ready to move on, just want the body, etc...

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/hartely-118203-hope-lost.html

Hartley's family has not lost hope despite no official developments

Young who says he is not familiar with the dynamics of the area, said he is having a tough time keeping up with the alleged developments in the case. Several names of suspects have surfaced but none have led to an arrest or a body.

"They can throw around all the names they want," he said. "I don’t know any of these people. It’s so far out of my even being able to comprehend. This is new territory for me, and I’m trying to understand it."

A motive, he said, is not what the family is looking for.

"It doesn’t matter how or who or why this happened," he said. "The main thing is we just want to get David back. There’s people that know where (the body) is, and all we really want is David’s remains so that people can move forward and get on with their lives."

Young says the family has not lost hope.

"Hand over the remains and we can be good," he said. "That’s really all we want."

bbm
I assume they are Mexican and U.S authorities and IMO they are talking about the drug trade.
So names of people have been given to Mr Hartley to find out if he knows them but he says he does not..:waitasec: If it's the Mexican Drug Cartel why would he know any names :waitasec:
I have hoped from the beginning that David's body is found and returned to them...

 

[Tuffy]

To me, it's not the "what", but the "why".

Why were they attacked, and why was only one of them killed?

(The bad side of me, wonders if maybe TH didn't want to move to Colorado, because of a relationship she had.)

The thing is, she is still planning on moving to Colorado now. She doesn't have to, the only reason for the move before seemed to be for his job, yet she is still moving there without him.