Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

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  • #41
But...
How far do murders in Mexico get 'investigated' anyway?
What have they found out so far... they pick two brothers basically out of thin air as 'suspects'. How/Why?
One would think if his body was in or around the lake... he would have been found already.
Not known for sure that the decapitation is directly related to this case.

Still tons of questions!?!
 
  • #42
I was going by Tiffany's own words. Here is the link:

http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10

At one point she says she and David were racing as fast as they could away from the shooters, then a little later she says the jet skis can go 70, 75 miles per hour. So if you believe she's telling the truth, ergo she and David were racing away at 70, 75 miles per hour.

Tiffany's own words are sketchy and confusing to say the least. :waitasec:
 
  • #43
Where did David work in Mexico and what was his position? Just curious I thought I had read that? If I'm mistaken please correct me! TIA :)
 
  • #44
Tiffany's own words are sketchy and confusing to say the least. :waitasec:

Not to mention clairvoyant:

HARTLEY: There were three boats that were chasing us and then one boat came up to me and I saw two people in that boat. But there was a third or a fourth person in that boat. I just didn't see them.

Source: http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/11/acd.02.html

And we saw, you know, that they had guns. I didn't personally see that. But my husband just motioned that we needed to get going, then shooting at us.

Source: http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10
 
  • #45
I still believe her...................

I admire and applaud you for sticking by your guns, in the face of so many people disagreeing with you -- not an easy thing to do!

You're the kind of friend I want to have on my side!
 
  • #46
I was going by Tiffany's own words. Here is the link:

http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10

At one point she says she and David were racing as fast as they could away from the shooters, then a little later she says the jet skis can go 70, 75 miles per hour. So if you believe she's telling the truth, ergo she and David were racing away at 70, 75 miles per hour.

When you tell the truth, you only have to keep one story straight.
 
  • #47
Gotta admit I didn't believe her story one bit, but the beheading of the official certainly gives me pause. I personally can't see why a drug cartel would draw additional fire onto themselves with another, more high-profile murder if her story was bogus. It seems like the cartels are intent on sending a msg to leave them and their business alone, and surely if she were lying they would not up the ante and take that upon themselves as well.

Only an opinion, and I admit I haven't read up on all facets of this very intriguing case.
 
  • #48
IMO these were young punks firing blindly in an attempt to scare them both into stopping. They zigged, he zigged when he thought they were going to zag, and bam! he's in the path of a bullet.


Apparently these are simultaneously both the best shooters in the world and the worst.

I mean, they manage to shoot a man moving away from them at 70-75 MPH, from a moving boat themselves, square in the back of the head.

Then firing with the same weapons at presumably the same speeds at said man's wife fleeing from them, they can't even manage to hit her or her jet ski once.
 
  • #49
IMO these were young punks firing blindly in an attempt to scare them both into stopping. They zigged, he zigged when he thought they were going to zag, and bam! he's in the path of a bullet.

I'm skeptical this incident happened in the first place. I'm simply pointing out the illogic in the story.

There have is no evidence that these were young punks or (being facetious) elderly men, because Tiffany can't remember a blessed thing about what they looked like.
 
  • #50
I was going by Tiffany's own words. Here is the link:

http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10

At one point she says she and David were racing as fast as they could away from the shooters, then a little later she says the jet skis can go 70, 75 miles per hour. So if you believe she's telling the truth, ergo she and David were racing away at 70, 75 miles per hour.

Her jetski would go faster than his simply because she was over a hundred lbs lighter. She mentioned in one of her many, many interviews that she was going faster because of the weight difference. My daughter could kick my husband's butt in go-cart racing for the same reason.
 
  • #51
No not yet, but I'm not looking. I don't believe it is an insurance scam.

...and from what is sounds like, the police aren't looking either. Per Sheriff Gonzalez, even asking her to take a poly is unacceptable.
 
  • #52
Kidnap the wife? Well I suppose anything is possible. Did they know who she was? Did they know her family was weathy enough to pay a ransom? Just some questions to consider. Because

We usually see kidnappings of that sort deeper into the country of Mexico. The cartels controlling the border will and do come into the US and extract who it is they have a beef with and take them back to Mexico. (Saw this happen a few times in the city I lived in last year) Those people are usually found fairly quickly laying in the streets with their heads resting nearby or on their chests. Every once in a while they would come over the border and try to extract the wrong person because they had the wrong house or something. But nine times out of 10 those murdered had a direct relation with a cartel.That's what I'm scratchin my head about over here, the part I highlighted above.

Kat, thanks for your post. I have only posted twice, I think, on this case. Yet, several things about this case and Tiffany's account of what happened bother me. And what you highlighted in your post above is part of what has been rolling in the back of my mind. That, and also that Tiffany and David lived in Mexico for a while (sorry I cannot recall with accuracy the exact dates, but do recall the accounts by Tiffany also recalling that they had lived in Mexico for several years). So, here are the thoughts forming in my brain: While living in Mexico David did have some type of direct relation/connection with the drug cartel. When they moved back to the states from Mexico perhaps David owed some money to the Cartel, or one of the gangs associated with the Cartel. When he and Tiffany went to the lake that day he was recognized, and shot. Pure speculation on my part, but it bothers me greatly that their background includes living in Mexico. Their motive for moving to Mexico in the first place bothers me more. From everything I have read about Mexico the government, LE, etc are very corrupt there. So, I have tried to think of one positive reason one would move there but cannot think of one.

So, to summarize, something that occurred during the time David and Tiffany lived in Mexico made him a "marked man" with whoever shot him. I cannot say for certain, but it seems likely that many illegal transactions could take place at that lake, given its location. It may very well serve as an illegal conduit for drugs to cross from one side to the other. At any rate, something more that relates to their previous residence and associations in Mexico led to the tragic loss of David's life. At this point I am still thinking that the bare bones truth of David being shot is accurate, but all of the other "rest of the story" has been left out by Tiffany. JMHO and pure speculation only.
 
  • #53
Her jetski would go faster than his simply because she was over a hundred lbs lighter. She mentioned in one of her many, many interviews that she was going faster because of the weight difference. My daughter could kick my husband's butt in go-cart racing for the same reason.

I thought I had watched most of her interviews and I don't remember her saying this. I only remember her saying she couldn't get him up on her jet ski because of the weight difference. Do you have a link? Thanks.

ETA: In fact here she says:

"His jet ski is faster than mine and at the time I couldn't figure out why he wasn't up with me,” said Hartley.

http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=524591
 
  • #54
They haven't investigated? Then who are all those people looking for David's body? What about the Mexican investigator who had his head removed for looking for David's body? I sure hope he counts.

I'm talking about any investigation from America. I'm tired and it's late. I obviously wasn't very clear in my last comment.
 
  • #55
Kat, thanks for your post. I have only posted twice, I think, on this case. Yet, several things about this case and Tiffany's account of what happened bother me. And what you highlighted in your post above is part of what has been rolling in the back of my mind. That, and also that Tiffany and David lived in Mexico for a while (sorry I cannot recall with accuracy the exact dates, but do recall the accounts by Tiffany also recalling that they had lived in Mexico for several years). So, here are the thoughts forming in my brain: While living in Mexico David did have some type of direct relation/connection with the drug cartel. When they moved back to the states from Mexico perhaps David owed some money to the Cartel, or one of the gangs associated with the Cartel. When he and Tiffany went to the lake that day he was recognized, and shot. Pure speculation on my part, but it bothers me greatly that their background includes living in Mexico. Their motive for moving to Mexico in the first place bothers me more. From everything I have read about Mexico the government, LE, etc are very corrupt there. So, I have tried to think of one positive reason one would move there but cannot think of one.

So, to summarize, something that occurred during the time David and Tiffany lived in Mexico made him a "marked man" with whoever shot him. I cannot say for certain, but it seems likely that many illegal transactions could take place at that lake, given its location. It may very well serve as an illegal conduit for drugs to cross from one side to the other. At any rate, something more that relates to their previous residence and associations in Mexico led to the tragic loss of David's life. At this point I am still thinking that the bare bones truth of David being shot is accurate, but all of the other "rest of the story" has been left out by Tiffany. JMHO and pure speculation only.

Thank you Kateyes. I was unaware that David and his wife had lived there.

I am not blaming the victim in any way (just a disclaimer :))

Yes, I agree with your post and would even go so far as to expand the parameters to include shooters that were not associated with any cartel or drug gang.

Also to include indirect relationships with drug cartels and drug gangs, in that David possibly became a marked man because of his associations and/or because of any activity he may have witnessed while living or working there.

There aren't enough wheels on this train for me to make it go choo-choo with the current info. Something is missing. I really do think something is missing.

JMHO.
 
  • #56
Gotta admit I didn't believe her story one bit, but the beheading of the official certainly gives me pause. I personally can't see why a drug cartel would draw additional fire onto themselves with another, more high-profile murder if her story was bogus. It seems like the cartels are intent on sending a msg to leave them and their business alone, and surely if she were lying they would not up the ante and take that upon themselves as well.

Only an opinion, and I admit I haven't read up on all facets of this very intriguing case.



To us, it would appear that if the drug cartels wanted to keep a low profile, in this HIGH profile case, they wouldn't do anything. But the point is, they wanted BOTH U.S. and Mexican authorities to STOP looking and just stay away. What better way to make that point, than to murder the ranking lawman from that city that was leading the search?

Below is a link to another example of just how VICIOUS these cartels can be. For people that haven't been paying attention or do not live close to the Mexican border, they may have missed a LOT of news of the horrible narco-war being waged in Mexico and spilling across the U.S. border.

I mentioned it the other day in a post here on another thread, but there is a swath 100 miles into the U.S., just to the outskirts of Phoenix, that are too dangerous for American citizens to drive through and the the federal government has posted signs WARNING people of the situation. So rather than PROTECT our Arizona citizens within out OWN BORDER, the federal government has posted messages to STAY OUT! So, I guess they're essentially giving part of the U.S. in Arizona, back to Mexico.

It's a scary situation. It seems David THOUGHT he knew where he would be safe. But,................he was wrong. So very wrong.

JMHO
fran



http://www.editorandpublisher.com/H...paper-asks-drug-cartels-for-truce-62655-.aspx

Mexican Bordertown Newspaper Asks Drug Cartels for Truce

Published: September 20, 2010


CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico
The biggest newspaper in Mexico's most violent city will restrict drug war coverage after the killing of its second journalist in less than two years, just as international press representatives will urge the government to make security for journalists a national priority.

In a front-page editorial Sunday, El Diario de Juarez asked drug cartels warring in this city across from El Paso, Texas, to say what they want from the newspaper, so it can continue its work without further death, injury or intimidation of its staff.

"Leaders of the different organizations that are fighting for control of Ciudad Juarez: The loss of two reporters from this publishing house in less than two years represents an irreparable sorrow for all of us who work here, and, in particular, for their families," the editorial said. "We ask you to explain what you want from us, what we should try to publish or not publish, so we know what to expect."

It was the newspaper's second front-page editorial since gunmen attacked two El Diario photographers Thursday — one a new employee and the other an intern. The new employee, Luis Carlos Santiago, 21, died and the intern was seriously wounded as they left their office to have lunch. In 2008, a crime reporter for El Diario was slain outside his home as he was taking his daughters to school.

At least 22 Mexican journalists have been killed over the past four years, at least eight of them targeted because of their reports on crime and corruption, says the Committee to Protect Journalists, a U.S.-based media watchdog group that plans to present its report to Mexican President Felipe Calderon on Wednesday. At least seven other journalists have gone missing and more have fled the country, the report says.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<complete article at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
  • #57
Just because someone lives or lived in Mexico or goes back and forth to Mexico doesn't mean they buy, take, or associate with the drug cartel. Gee, I've been to Mexico probably a dozen times in the past 15 years and I've never KNOWINGLY talked to anyone belonging to a drug cartel.

David's company had him living in Mexico when they first moved to that area for his job. It was after the current president took office and started his campaign to attempt to defeat the drug cartels, that the violence increased until David's company asked them to move back over the border. I believe part of his employment duties included him having to travel back and forth across the border.

I know people who have homes in Mexico and cross the border daily for their job in the U.S. They have NO connection to any type of illegal activity. I know that for a fact.

Speculation that Tand D have any connection to the drug cartels or debts owing to them is pure wild speculation and NOT even remotely bordering on fact or truth. It's just someone trying to find a reason, when there is none, that someone would murder David.

IMHO, they murdered him because they could.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #58
I thought I had watched most of her interviews and I don't remember her saying this. I only remember her saying she couldn't get him up on her jet ski because of the weight difference. Do you have a link? Thanks.

ETA: In fact here she says:

"His jet ski is faster than mine and at the time I couldn't figure out why he wasn't up with me,&#8221; said Hartley.

http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=524591

I will have to look for a link, but I am quite sure because she was asked about why she rode in the direction toward pirates to escape and she said on a jetski being the smaller person, she was able to go up to maximum speed of 70mph and it was necessary for her to go through them to get to USA side.

I want to say it was the Today show last Friday. I can't find it on the site.
 
  • #59
I think she killed him and blamed it on the Cartel because she knew the U.S couldn't investigate it because it was on the Mexican side and the Mexicans have their hands full with other things already. Somebody else probably came along the body and the jetski and took what was salvageable and left the body to drift.

Yeah it is possible in all of the gun fire that her husband would get hit in the head, but I seriously doubt that she would not have been hit or the jetski would not have been hit. Then there is the fact that she stopped to try to pull him up on her jetski. Once again I find it hard to believe that several people with automatic weapons could not hit a non-moving target. I also find it very hard to believe that she could get away from people holding automatic weapons on her from 10 feet away.

As far as the investigator being killed, I think he was killed because he named the 2 Cartel heads in the area as suspects because he needed to name a suspect. These Cartel guys didn't appreciate being implicated in something they didn't do, that would bring all types of heat to the area, and dealt with him.
 
  • #60
Just for clarification.

In my post prior, I never intimated, insinuated or implied that David had any responsibility in his murder.

Nor did I intimate, insinuate or imply that he had a formal relationship with any cartel or any drug activity. Or any illegal activity.


IMHO it is not considered wild speculation to look at every single aspect of a crime case and to weigh any and all possibilities and then decide if they are possible, probable or even factual.
 
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