Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

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  • #121
The timeline does not add up for the video. There are so many inconsistencies in Tiffany's story. I find it suspect that for some odd reason she had his truck keys. Why would she have them if he drove the truck? Simple answer is she would not. I am in Federal law enforcement and have to shoot at a range with NON MOVING TARGETS. It is fact that if the target is moving and the shooter is also moving at high speeds in a boat, The shooter will never get a clean shot to the head. Unless I apply all fundamentals of shooting, I will not hit my target.This only happens in Hollywood. Perhaps Tiffany saw this on "Miami Vice". If they did have automatic weapons like Tiffany preaches....There will be hundreds of shots being spayed everywhere. Furthermore if her Jet ski is moving at a high rate of speed, It would be impossible for her to see rounds hitting the water, not to mention hear them. In addition it is insult to injury when she tells her story and she claims she went back to get him. I can not speculate enough how much of the truth she is not telling. It is interesting on her Facebook page she is always posting about her boring life. It is also interesting that she is a fan of Dave Ramsey and goes so far to say that he has helped her. Suspect that there were financial problems. It looked like they lived a lavish lifestyle as well. Jet ski's, motorcycles, Trucks. I could go on and on. Tiffany needs to be investigated, and I'll add some more insight into this;, she indeed is. The authority's do not believe her, They are allowing her to tell her story and run the media so they can build their case. Furthermore, she does not realize this. Tiffany wants the fame of fortune and to live her fifteen minutes as long as she can. Remember Scott Peterson, Susan Smith? Enough said.

BBM: Very simple. If you have ever helped unload a boat or two jetskis you would see this. This is how I can see why she would have the truck keys. I have helped my husband unload many boats and while I would back the truck with the trailer down the boat ramp he would get the boat off the trailer and hold onto it or if a dock was available, bring it up to the dock and wait for me to go park the truck and get back to the ramp. I always kept the keys with me because I knew that I would be the one to go get the truck and back it down the ramp so he could put the boat back on the trailer, signal me to go and I would pull up the ramp and park nearby so that he could come up, make sure the boat was secured on the trailer and get into the truck.
 
  • #122
Right.
My husband isn't in oil, but he gets "pick up and go HERE" calls all the time.

He always has a destination. You can't make airline and hotel reservations just for "Wisconsin".

The Hartleys were MOVING. That means their possessions would be loaded up and transported.
"Here's our stuff. Take it to Colorado."
"Where in Colorado?"
"Don't know."

All she needed to say, was the nearest city/town. Certainly she knew that.

Not to be rude, but: maybe the reason she's so hard to believe, is that she's not very intelligent?

I can understand exactly why the couple didn't really know where they would be living. Many times, being in the turbine/generator/power plant work, we would be told to hit Interstate 40 going west and call in to the office in two days and we would know which power plant to hear toward. Many times more than one powerplant would be scheduling shutdowns and the crews weren't yet assigned.
 
  • #123
Thank you for this post. His mother was concerned enough to mention it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/11/earlyshow/main6946795.shtml
snipped

"dash cam video taken from a police cruiser provides more support for Tiffany Hartley's story that Mexican pirates attacked the couple while they were jet skiing on the lake and taking pictures of a sunken church.

In a video shot from a police "dash-cam," the couple can be seen being pulled over shortly before getting to the lake, jet skis in tow.

The trooper can be heard asking, "Where you headed to?"

David Hartley replies, "Out to Falcon"

The trooper says, "To Falcon?"

David says, "Yeah."

The trooper says, "Going jet skiing for the day, or what?"

David can be heard saying, "Yeah, I figure we'll play around for a bit."


Johnny Hernandez, of the Texas Department of Public Safety, told CBS News, "It proves that they were together. That they were en route to Falcon Lake to enjoy the day."

Tiffany said on "The Early Show," the border patrol saw the couple several times on their way to the lake. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would expect them to be together in these videos, these were taken BEFORE they launched the jet ski in the water at Falcon Lake and headed towards Mexico.

David did not reveal to LE, when they got pulled over and questioned, that their purpose for going to Falcon that day was because they intended to cross into Mexico and visit Old Guerrero. According to the transcript there is NO mention from David that they intended to cross into Mexico for some sightseeing even though the Trooper probed more and asked "going jet skiing for the day or what?" and David answers "yeah, I figure we'll play around for a bit"

I can't explain Why, but this is bothering me. It could be nothing at all and maybe it is, yet I am unsettled.

BBm: I'm confused a bit. Why would anyone tell LE that they were planning on crossing illegally over the Mexican border?:waitasec:
 
  • #124
I for one do not doubt your story at all....I believe it. I have lived in a Texas border town....YEARS ago and there were risks then...people will tell you in that area what to expect. But here is where we are going to differ....you went there for a job...not sight seeing. A pleasure trip....just not the same IMO....PAY IS GREAT for those jobs...But a PICTURE???? Seriously....give me a break.

The purpose of my post was to try to portray just how dangerous it is outside of the tourist areas. Americans are sometimes very naive about security in a foreign country. There is a very real possibility that he was murdered by drug thugs. I have not made any comment about "why" I think that the couple was in the area. Why they crossed over into a dangerous area, who knows? People do dangerous things all the time thinking that they can get away with it. Could have been just risky
stupidity that led them to the area or it could have been a drug deal gone bad and her husband paid the price for it. Who knows? I'm just saying that drug thugs killing her husband is a real possibility. As far as if she is telling the true story or not, I have no idea.
 
  • #125
You folks do realize that there were other incidents with pirates this summer right?
 
  • #126
Possibly when they got close enough to see they were Americans.

So the "scouts" didn't notice they were Americans when they were following them around in TX and watching them put the ski's in the water? Surely they stopped for lunch too and saw them there. How did these scouts know they would be going into Mexican waters? Do the same scouts go around following everyone in McAllen with Mexican tags? Good reason for some "tail prevention" and changing your tags after moving back to the states.

I'm sorry this man's family lost a son, but according to the article...this was not the first time they had been on the lake. They had been there in August also...after his company requested they move back to TX because of the violence. She even admitted of having that knowledge and said they had a plan...??

Here's what people in Reynosa.....where they had lived...have been "discussing" lately: http://www.topix.com/forum/mx/reynosa

IF, what she is claiming happened, they have no one to blame but themselves for very bad decisions. Granted it should not have happened, but you don't "take chances" with the likes of what is happening and has been for years down there. If she is not scared and believes God did and is still protecting her ....and she wants to be a advocate for the border problems then she should have no problem going back to Mexico to answer questions about her husband's murder?? All these people who believe her story and are jumping on the boarder problem band wagon could escort her. But maybe she woke up and realized the reality of it and her faith takes a back seat to HER being investigated, (which I am sure she is); notwithstanding getting her head chopped off....

Maybe one of the politician on her side can set her down and explain the simplicities of the politics revolving around the economics and the state owned oil company her husband indirectly worked for, and how they all interact in the boarder problem. Oh, that's right....it would all be solved if the American druggies went to rehab. GMAB.

Maybe DH banked his jet ski while still in US waters and had friends pick him and jet ski up....then chase her back around the island for a bit for the James Bond chase. The only time she ever turned around, is when she witnessed her husband getting shot, flying over the ski jet and seeing blood. All that blood that turned into microscopic residue on vest.

As with any MP case, the spouse has to be ruled out. How is that going to happen? How can we help this victim be ruled out? I hope for her sake and the family's....she can and her husband's body be returned. How can we help this victim reach her "goal".

All JMO
 
  • #127
MISTAKEN IDENTITY

STRATFOR, an Austin-based think tank that focuses on the drug war and other global security issues, reported Wednesday that the Sept. 30 incident may have been a case of mistaken identity by the Zetas drug trafficking organization

It noted that the truck the couple used to haul their personal watercraft to the reservoir had Tamaulipas state plates — a fact confirmed by Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez — and that the Old Guerrero area is a known battleground in the ongoing struggle between the Zetas and the rival Gulf Cartel.

Zeta scouts identified the Hartleys’ truck as the couple was en route to the reservoir and watched them set out personal watercraft toward the Old Guerrero area, STRATFOR reported on its website, citing unnamed sources.

"Both Gulf Cartel and Los Zetas operatives have been known to conduct surveillance and counter surveillance operations on personal watercraft, so these scouts thus identified the Hartleys as possible Gulf surveillance assets, given their vehicle’s license plate and their method and direction of travel on Falcon Lake," the think tank said. "Their description and position was radioed to Los Zetas members on the Mexican side of the lake, after which the couple was apparently confronted by Zetas enforcers."

STRATFOR said its sources reported that higher-ranking Zeta members had not green-lighted the attack and that a "damage control campaign" spearheaded by Zeta leader Miguel "Z-40" Treviño Morales is now underway to identify and eliminate those who carried out the attack.


http://www.themonitor.com/articles/mistaken-43578-report-rival.html

So this explains why they didn't shoot her. They realized they had been given bad information from the scouts. They let her go.

I gotta hand it to you, this sounds credible.
 
  • #128
BBm: I'm confused a bit. Why would anyone tell LE that they were planning on crossing illegally over the Mexican border?:waitasec:

At first, I thought we had only Tiffany's word that they planned on going to the Church, because in the video David makes no reference to sightseeing in Mexico. So I found that awfully strange.
But then I read David's mother's interview about talking to him that morning where he mentioned to her about going to the Church in Mexico..

I suppose you are right lonetraveler,
I guess the Hartley's didn't want LE to know they had the intent to cross the border into Mexico and instead concealed the real reason for being on Falcon Lake that day
 
  • #129
Right.
My husband isn't in oil, but he gets "pick up and go HERE" calls all the time.

He always has a destination. You can't make airline and hotel reservations just for "Wisconsin".

The Hartleys were MOVING. That means their possessions would be loaded up and transported.
"Here's our stuff. Take it to Colorado."
"Where in Colorado?"
"Don't know."

All she needed to say, was the nearest city/town. Certainly she knew that.

Not to be rude, but: maybe the reason she's so hard to believe, is that she's not very intelligent?

IIRC, they were moving within the next week or two.....the mover's would have already been called and scheduled....if not....maybe their furniture was going to be put in storage in McAllen and transported later, but we haven't heard the particulars...and in some media, they were still waiting for this transfer to go thru. ??? Odd they would go out and buy all that furniture and then have to store it while they waited for the details of their move to take place.
 
  • #130
  • #131
The "clairvoyant" part is this: "I saw two people in that boat. But there was a third or a fourth person in that boat. I just didn't see them."

She's saying she saw two people in the boat, but there was one or two more that she didn't see.

So how did she know there were more than two people in the boat?
I think "clairvoyant" is a good description.

If you listen to the actual interview and the question she was asked I think it makes a little more sense. I took it as her noticing that there was 3 or 4 in the one boat, however, she was only able to see two of there faces. I would assume that she means she did not get a clear visual on the remaining men.
 
  • #132
So the "scouts" didn't notice they were Americans when they were following them around in TX and watching them put the ski's in the water? Surely they stopped for lunch too and saw them there. How did these scouts know they would be going into Mexican waters? Do the same scouts go around following everyone in McAllen with Mexican tags? Good reason for some "tail prevention" and changing your tags after moving back to the states.

I'm sorry this man's family lost a son, but according to the article...this was not the first time they had been on the lake. They had been there in August also...after his company requested they move back to TX because of the violence. She even admitted of having that knowledge and said they had a plan...??

Here's what people in Reynosa.....where they had lived...have been "discussing" lately: http://www.topix.com/forum/mx/reynosa

IF, what she is claiming happened, they have no one to blame but themselves for very bad decisions. Granted it should not have happened, but you don't "take chances" with the likes of what is happening and has been for years down there. If she is not scared and believes God did and is still protecting her ....and she wants to be a advocate for the border problems then she should have no problem going back to Mexico to answer questions about her husband's murder?? All these people who believe her story and are jumping on the boarder problem band wagon could escort her. But maybe she woke up and realized the reality of it and her faith takes a back seat to HER being investigated, (which I am sure she is); notwithstanding getting her head chopped off....

Maybe one of the politician on her side can set her down and explain the simplicities of the politics revolving around the economics and the state owned oil company her husband indirectly worked for, and how they all interact in the boarder problem. Oh, that's right....it would all be solved if the American druggies went to rehab. GMAB.

Maybe DH banked his jet ski while still in US waters and had friends pick him and jet ski up....then chase her back around the island for a bit for the James Bond chase. The only time she ever turned around, is when she witnessed her husband getting shot, flying over the ski jet and seeing blood. All that blood that turned into microscopic residue on vest.

As with any MP case, the spouse has to be ruled out. How is that going to happen? How can we help this victim be ruled out? I hope for her sake and the family's....she can and her husband's body be returned. How can we help this victim reach her "goal".

All JMO

Granted I'm still on the fence about what happen on Lake Falcon but one thing I do know is that a lot of people living and playing along the border are oblivious to what is really going on. They know the dangers but are somewhat in denial about it; or this is the best way I can describe it. I have friends that continuoulsy go into the border city of Ojinaga to shop and for medical care. They think nothing of it. One of my friends even celebrated her brothers wedding in Juarez and to her it was no big deal. Their belief is that the drug cartel is only after the people involved with the cartel, nothing will happen to them. I continuously warn them but it falls on deaf ears as far as they are concerned Mexico is safe. So if the Hartleys went over there I imagine they are of the same ilk, to them it was no big deal they felt safe.
 
  • #133
  • #134
Can I ask a big favor? :angel:

Maybe it's just my eyes, but unbolded colors on WS's pale-gray background, is very hard to read. When nearly the entire post is in red, it kinda defeats the purpose of highlighting the important parts. ;)

Please don't think I'm singling you out. It's just something I've noticed on WS, and I understand why people do it. I've done it myself.

You can ask me anything. ;)
 
  • #135
If you listen to the actual interview and the question she was asked I think it makes a little more sense. I took it as her noticing that there was 3 or 4 in the one boat, however, she was only able to see two of there faces. I would assume that she means she did not get a clear visual on the remaining men.

She didn't get a clear visual of any of them...remember?
 
  • #136
If you listen to the actual interview and the question she was asked I think it makes a little more sense. I took it as her noticing that there was 3 or 4 in the one boat, however, she was only able to see two of there faces. I would assume that she means she did not get a clear visual on the remaining men.

That's the way I see it.

Two guys in the front/ of the boat with guns. Yet, the boat is still moving. The obvious conclusion is someone else is driving.
 
  • #137
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/falcon/

This is from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Page

Area Attractions: Nearby points of interest include Lake Casa Blanca International State Park and Bentsen-Rio Grande Valley State Park (part of the World Birding Center); Falcon Dam, with a memorial to the joint US-Mexico project; Nuevo Guerrero, built across the border after Falcon Reservoir engulfed old Guerrero in 1953; Mexico; Fort Ringgold in Rio Grande City, established in 1848; the City of Roma, which was founded in 1768 and is currently restoring several old buildings. Roma has many historical sites including the Roma Historical Museum with exhibits on American, Spanish and Mexican cultures.



***So, if the TEXAS Parks and Wildlife page lists the old city/church locations as an area attraction on their STATE PARK page, I think it would be safe to say people may go to Falcon Lake to see it. Crossing over the border to do it.

JMO

I see nothing wrong with what the Hartley's did. It's advertised by the state of Texas.

They did not deserve this.
 
  • #138
http://gotexas.about.com/od/outdoorsintexas/a/FalconPark.htm


Swimming, skiing, jetskiing and other water sports are also available – and popular – on Falcon Lake. Those liking a little slower pace should try paddling the scenic shores along the State Park by canoe or kayak. Birding is also a popular pastime in the park and good sightings are common from both land and water.

Visitors can also take a quick jaunt across the Falcon International Dam to Guerrero, Mexico. Guerrero is not a “tourist” destination, so don’t expect to see streets lined with shops and pharmacies like you would in Nuevo Laredo, Matamoros, or Progreso. However, Guerrero still has a certain charm and adventure-seeking tourists shouldn’t miss a chance to get a taste of “old Mexico.”
 
  • #139
Right.
My husband isn't in oil, but he gets "pick up and go HERE" calls all the time.

He always has a destination. You can't make airline and hotel reservations just for "Wisconsin".

The Hartleys were MOVING. That means their possessions would be loaded up and transported.
"Here's our stuff. Take it to Colorado."
"Where in Colorado?"
"Don't know."

All she needed to say, was the nearest city/town. Certainly she knew that.

Not to be rude, but: maybe the reason she's so hard to believe, is that she's not very intelligent?

That is rude.
 
  • #140
Posting for those interested. It seems the details of the transfer were still in
work-out.


On Sept. 30, on the spur of the moment, they decided to take their Wave Runners out, knowing they would be headed back to Colorado as soon as David's transfer request was finalized.

Read more: David Hartley remembered as an ideal husband, son, friend - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/ci_16293727#ixzz12MGfKrOx
 
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