Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[alwaysonmymind]

Every crime deserves justice. IMO, to deny justice to victims just adds insult to injury.

How do you suggest Tiffany and David's family go about this? The residents of Mexico can't even expect and demand justice.

from the article-

His unsolved killing is not a one-off incident in Mexico. While the numbers vary, most groups put the impunity rate here at up to 98 percent, says Ms. Meyer. The number of those actually reporting crime to authorities in the first place is also low, at just about a quarter, due to fears that authorities are incompetent, at best, or corrupt, at worst.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Amer...bols-of-Mexico-s-ineffective-judiciary-police

Publicly, they are saying "We just want David back."

We don't know what they say when the camera is not there.

And I agree with Welldone and Velouria, this approach may yield better results than screaming and demanding justice.

 

[hollyblue]

Supposedly on the American side. Scouts for the drug cartel seen the Hartley's in their truck with Mexican tags on the US side and thought they were spy's for a rival drug gang.

I think the scenario of "Mistaken Identity" is just pure speculation from the "Think Tank" STRATFOR, an Austin-based think tank that focuses on the drug war and other global security issues,

They reported Wednesday that the Sept. 30 incident may have been a case of mistaken identity by the Zetas drug trafficking organization.

Remember this is from the same article: "STRATFOR said its sources reported that higher-ranking Zeta members had not green-lighted the attack and that a "damage control campaign" spearheaded by Zeta leader Miguel "Z-40" Treviño Morales is now underway to identify and eliminate those who carried out the attack."

When and if the members of Zeta drug cartel that are supposedly responsible for Davids killing are eliminated by the head of their own organization, is when I will give some credibility to what the STRATFOR "think tank" has to say about the case of mistaken identity.

Here is a video about the case from the VP of Intelligence Fred Burton from STRATFOR.

http://mediasuite.multicastmedia.com/player.php?v=i1n59l08

I think STRATFOR is just trying to schmooz over a very bad situation right now...and probably spear-headed by politicians to get things calmed down.

Unless someone can provide me with info that American couples are frequently engaged in intelligence survelliance for the cartels, I find it very hard to believe this was a case of mistaken identity. Again, why didin't they take her out too....as part of this survellience team?

The only involvement of Americans in the cartels, that I have heard in connection to anything similiar to this case, is the turncoat employees of the oil companies providing help to the cartels in the theft of their oil.
Pemex is the Mexican state owned oil company that David's company, CalFrac had just secured a $75 million contract with. Here's an article...but it you look into the matter....it goes from the smallest laborer to the executives in companies being involved. From providing info, equipment, to the actual purchasing of the stolen product from the cartels. Not saying David had any involvment....just saying this is happening. I'd be lying if I said I haven't had a "hmmmm" moment to wonder tho.

http://gantdaily.com/2010/06/08/mex...it-accuses-u-s-companies-of-theft-conspiracy/

 

[hollyblue]

Now I'm officially confused.

Their truck was registered in Mexico. How could a cartel (in Mexico) see all the way across the lake, to spot their Mexican license plates?

In one story, I read that Tifany had to jet 7 miles across the water; in another quote posted here, one mile. In either case, that's a powerful pair of binoculars!

Or.....did they DRIVE across the border and put the jet skis in the water from the Mexican side?

At least we now know why they were pulled over by "at least three" law enforcement issues, for that expired tag on their trailer. They had Mexican license plates, an expired trailer tag....and probably mixed-up IDs.

They had a tail on them from the US side. Saw them enter the jet skis at the dock in Zapata...and apparently kept an eye on them "somehow" and radioed the info to other Zetas on the lake. Sorry, I don't buy it at the moment. Watching them for the possible theft of the skis and just plain robbery for money or a weapon...yeah. More so the jet skis for their "business" assets. That's why I have a hard time believing the story.....they would have killed her too...spy or possessor of jet ski. imo

 

[hollyblue]

Sheriff: Jet Ski killing blamed on mistaken identity

Report says Mexican drug cartel took American for spy of rival gang

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39669630/ns/world_news-americas/

I think the decision for family, including TH's decision to move back to CO is a smart move. They can't do anything different from what they have been doing...from TX than CO in finding him.

 

[hollyblue]

Just heard on HLN that Tiffany will be meeting with the FBI and two other groups.....think Mexican officials to get a "statement" from her and info to further the investigation.

There was also some mention of the governor and a meeting in Washington that was previouly scheduled before the Hartley case, and I guess the reporter caught him and was asking about the case.

Sorry I don't have more info and can't be more detailed, I searched HLN, but not found the link to this specific info...only of the temp recess in the search for this body and that they are taking a new approach.

ETA: Found it:
Hartley will meet with FBI and Mexican federal authorities in Texas Friday to review her statement of what happened to her husband, according to Tamaulipas state governor Eugenio Hernandez Flores.
Flores, in Washington for annual meetings on Mexican-U.S. partnerships, will meet with FBI officials during his visit Friday to pledge cooperation as authorities look into the matter.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/15/texas.missing.american/index.html?npt=NP1

 

[IzzyBlanche]

This is good news. I'm glad to know the FBI is involved.

 

[Gypsy Road]

Is it possible that Tiffany is appealing to the cartel with these statements? In effect, she could be saying "I'm not interested in putting the heat on you and your drug activities, just please give me my husband's body back."?

I think it's very possible. In fact, it's not just Tiffany who is pleading just to have David's body back (see linked article below). The circumstances surrounding David's alleged murder aren't typical. The drug cartels are violent, and even though Tiffany escaped death on the lake, she's probably scared to death the cartels will come after her now that this has become an international story. I'm sure she wants justice, but she knows that probably isn't possible given the circumstances, so she's just pleading for David's body back.

From an earlier article http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/08/earlyshow/main6938718.shtml

"Gonzalez said, "There are problems along the border. Whether you admit it or not there are problems and it's spillover violence."

The sheriff's objectives were to show that the American side of Falcon Lake is safe, and to deliver a message to the drug cartel that controls the water, and land beyond the border.

Gonzalez said, "What I've told them is, 'I need a body. Give me a body, guys, and everything will go away. Give a body guys and the news media will go away.'"

Gonzales fears the same cartel enforcers who killed David have permanently hidden his body.

He said, "The body has been disposed of. They have it somewhere they've gotten rid of the body so there's no evidence."

But that's not something Tiffany Hartley is ready to accept, and says she's only now beginning to grieve."

 

[WellDone]

BBM

I totally agree alwaysonmymind!

With all this going on I searched for crime/news in Cozumel the other day & WISH I could find it again.... I'll keep looking, but VERY loosely paraphasing it said... for vacationers in resort areas to beware of people on mopeds being they are travelling in pairs & snatching the tourists' bags/purses, etc. The Mexican LE professed not to have had 1 complained about this from tourist, however, the person writing the warning said he personally took a tourist couple to file a complaint concerning this recent type of crime & so obviously there is no telling what the true statistics are of actual crimes against tourist &/or actual reported crimes against tourist.

And that's in one of the "touristy-touristy" parts of Mexico & just 1 type of crime being committed against the tourist so blantantly.

I'll keep relooking for the link... maybe one of you sleuthers that are so nifty with the searches can find it easier... for the life of me I can't recall exactly what I typed in to get it... LOL

IMO, to deny justice to victims just adds insult to injury.

How do you suggest Tiffany and David's family go about this? The residents of Mexico can't even expect and demand justice.

from the article-

His unsolved killing is not a one-off incident in Mexico. While the numbers vary, most groups put the impunity rate here at up to 98 percent, says Ms. Meyer. The number of those actually reporting crime to authorities in the first place is also low, at just about a quarter, due to fears that authorities are incompetent, at best, or corrupt, at worst.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Amer...bols-of-Mexico-s-ineffective-judiciary-police

Publicly, they are saying "We just want David back."

We don't know what they say when the camera is not there.

And I agree with Welldone and Velouria, this approach may yield better results than screaming and demanding justice.[/quote][/b]

 

[Gypsy Road]

Lake death, drug violence hammers Mexican tourism

"In the last two weeks alone, two American tourists have been killed in Mexico in vicious attacks - one while riding a Jet Ski and another when his bus was hijacked. And a Mexican police commander investigating one of those deaths was killed this week, his severed head delivered in a suitcase to a local Army post."

more at link

http://www.katu.com/news/national/105057804.html

 

[laytonian]

They had a tail on them from the US side. Saw them enter the jet skis at the dock in Zapata...and apparently kept an eye on them "somehow" and radioed the info to other Zetas on the lake.

Sorry, I don't buy it at the moment. Watching them for the possible theft of the skis and just plain robbery for money or a weapon...yeah. More so the jet skis for their "business" assets. That's why I have a hard time believing the story.....they would have killed her too...spy or possessor of jet ski. imo

The only people who'd bother keeping an eye on two innocent tourists on jet skis, would be US LE or someone who saw them get pulled over at 11:30am.

At least THREE troopers pulled them over for the expired registration, per (URL="http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/lake-117838-releases-reported.html"]The Brownsville Herald[/URL].

Listening to her, though, is like listening to a third-grader. If she's telling the truth, she's her own worst enemy. She's done too much talking, and too much backtracking.

 

[laytonian]

http://www.businessinsider.com/david-hartley-murder-2010-10

Is this article wrong? This says he was struck twice in the head. I'm not familiar with Business Insider. Are they a legit news source?

From their DISCLAIMER, it appears that they're like examiner.com: they don't employ journalists, but use "contributors" to rewrite legitimate news stories.

In their ABOUT, they mention a "blog" award and that they are community driven. That's the give-away.

JMO, but I don't consider such sources legitimate. They don't even credit their sources of information for validity. I also believe that if true journalism (mockingly called the "lamestream media" or MSM by some) ceases to exist, it will be because people are willing to work for free "rewriting" what an educated journalist was paid to produce by a legitimate source.

Sorry about the soapbox.

 

[laytonian]

BBM:

ETA: But one thing that should definitely happen, IMO, is that this case needs to be investigated from this side of the border, regardless of what TYH claims to have occurred.

That would be up to Texas & FBI then & I don't see what could even come of it??? It sure didn't help the Holloways in Aruba.[/QUOTE]

The FBI has no jurisdiction in a foreign country like Aruba.
They do have jurisdiction on this side of the border.

The FBI moving in on the case, may not be pleasant if the facts behind the murder are uncovered.

 

[MsBrisbee]

The only people who'd bother keeping an eye on two innocent tourists on jet skis, would be US LE or someone who saw them get pulled over at 11:30am.

At least THREE troopers pulled them over for the expired registration, per (URL="http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/lake-117838-releases-reported.html"]The Brownsville Herald[/URL].

Listening to her, though, is like listening to a third-grader. If she's telling the truth, she's her own worst enemy. She's done too much talking, and too much backtracking.

They had Mexican plates on their vehicle, the plates were from Mexican state of Tamaulapis which houses the Gulf cartel. It was reported on CNN that its believed scouts for Los Zetas radioed this believing DH was a Gulf member.

 

[WellDone]

BBM

I disagree with you on 2 points:

1... Criminals/cartel/drug dealers/gangs/cons etc. watch innocent people all the time all over the world... & there's no proof this observence was based on them being pulled over by LE.

2... TH is still technically a victim as well as DH & no good can come from further victimizing a victim by putting them down &/or name calling, accusing them of baseless crimes, etc.

The only people who'd bother keeping an eye on two innocent tourists on jet skis, would be US LE or someone who saw them get pulled over at 11:30am.
At least THREE troopers pulled them over for the expired registration, per (URL="http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/lake-117838-releases-reported.html"]The Brownsville Herald[/URL].

Listening to her, though, is like listening to a third-grader. If she's telling the truth, she's her own worst enemy. She's done too much talking, and too much backtracking.

 

[WellDone]

BBM

No crime/murder was committed on THIS SIDE... the original quote was pertaining to the initial poster wanting the FBI involved & I believe in previous posts it is stated that they are getting involved...

My response was that good luck, cuz being the crime was committed in a foreign country we do not have jurisdiction as was shown w/the Holloways & Aruba... the FBI did get involved, but the Holloways did not receive the justice they deserve there now did they????

I don't recall who the original poster was... that your response is directed to, but I'm sure this has been mentioned before too... just so you know.:waitasec:

That would be up to Texas & FBI then & I don't see what could even come of it??? It sure didn't help the Holloways in Aruba.

The FBI has no jurisdiction in a foreign country like Aruba.
They do have jurisdiction on this side of the border.

The FBI moving in on the case, may not be pleasant if the facts behind the murder are uncovered.[/QUOTE]

 

[laytonian]

STRATFOR said its sources reported that higher-ranking Zeta members had not green-lighted the attack and that a "damage control campaign" spearheaded by Zeta leader Miguel “Z-40” Trevino Morales is now under way to identify and eliminate those who carried out the attack.

I have a defense background, and have been wracking my brain to remember what STRATFOR is. Took awhile. They're a politically-active, quasi-investigative "shadow" intelligence company that has published some poorly-researched documents and books.

Does anyone else remember founder Friedman's book The Coming War With Japan (1991), which predicted that we'd be in full war with Japan within 20 years?

Maybe it's just me, but relying on a politically-active group come up with a finding that supports their political actions, is circular logic.

 

[laytonian]

BBM

No crime/murder was committed on THIS SIDE... the original quote was pertaining to the initial poster wanting the FBI involved & I believe in previous posts it is stated that they are getting involved...

My response was that good luck, cuz being the crime was committed in a foreign country we do not have jurisdiction as was shown w/the Holloways & Aruba... the FBI did get involved, but the Holloways did not receive the justice they deserve there now did they????

I don't recall who the original poster was... that your response is directed to, but I'm sure this has been mentioned before too... just so you know.:waitasec:

OK, I see what happened. My apologies.

I replied to you, but there's some misattributions and quoting errors (if you scroll down to what I replied to, you'll see them).

We're saying the same thing, then. The FBI went to Aruba, but due to jurisdictional issues, got nowhere.

I think the FBI can get something done from this side of the border, starting with formal interrogations of witness(es).

 

[laytonian]

BBM

I disagree with you on 2 points:

1... Criminals/cartel/drug dealers/gangs/cons etc. watch innocent people all the time all over the world... & there's no proof this observence was based on them being pulled over by LE.

...and none that it wasn't. LE was suspicious for more than one reason. it doesn't take three (or more) troopers to pull over an expired trailer tag.

I'm still confused how the cartel could watch them from the Mexican side. If you're saying they were watched from the US side, then NO ONE should go into that area. At all. Because "our" side would be just as bad. If there was a shady cop in that bunch that pulled DH and TH over, well, that's the answer.

2... TH is still technically a victim as well as DH & no good can come from further victimizing a victim by putting them down &/or name calling, accusing them of baseless crimes, etc.

I'm not name-calling; I'm describing my impression of TYH. I'm not the only one who's caught her different versions of the story.

It's good advice to tell her to quit talking to the press.

 

[WellDone]

Exactly! I noticed the quote quirks too!

I hope you're right about the FBI!

OK, I see what happened. My apologies.

I replied to you, but there's some misattributions and quoting errors (if you scroll down to what I replied to, you'll see them).

We're saying the same thing, then. The FBI went to Aruba, but due to jurisdictional issues, got nowhere.

I think the FBI can get something done from this side of the border, starting with formal interrogations of witness(es).

 

[Gypsy Road]

The only people who'd bother keeping an eye on two innocent tourists on jet skis, would be US LE or someone who saw them get pulled over at 11:30am.

At least THREE troopers pulled them over for the expired registration, per (URL="http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/lake-117838-releases-reported.html"]The Brownsville Herald[/URL].

Listening to her, though, is like listening to a third-grader. If she's telling the truth, she's her own worst enemy. She's done too much talking, and too much backtracking.

I don't necessarily believe it's true that the only people who'd bother keeping an eye on two innocent tourists on jets skis would be the US LE. We may not have the whole story. It's a well known fact that Mexican drug gangs use American citizens to smuggle firearms into Mexico all the time. They pay willing Americans top dollar. From what I understand - firearms are not legally for sale in Mexico. I'm not saying I believe that David and Tiffany were engaged in this type of activity, I'm just giving you an example of why an otherwise innocent looking tourist may be watched by the Zetas.

I don't in any way believe that Tiffany is responsible for David's death. I believe Tiffany is telling the truth when she says pirates shot at her and her husband. But, I'm also not sure we have the whole story. I do believe however - whatever reason David was out on that lake that day, he certainly didn't deserve to be murdered. It's tragic what happened and I feel for Tiffany and for David's family.