Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[fran]

Of course it doesn't have to be touching a temple to be pointed at her.

Tiffany said she was staring down the barrel at 10 feet away. That's NOT a "metaphor".

I believe people are getting caught up in symantics.

You can stare down the barrel of a gun, even if they're pointing it at your shoulder, your stomach, etc.

The fact is, they were pointing the gun at her and that's what she was concentrating on. That was her focal point.

I don't know how many times I've heard of robberies and the victim quite often can't give a description of the perp because their attention was drawn to the gun.

JMHO
fran

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I believe people are getting caught up in symantics.

You can stare down the barrel of a gun, even if they're pointing it at your shoulder, your stomach, etc.

The fact is, they were pointing the gun at her and that's what she was concentrating on. That was her focal point.

I don't know how many times I've heard of robberies and the victim quite often can't give a description of the perp because their attention was drawn to the gun.

JMHO
fran

I agree Fran. Anything to make her look more guilty.

Everything she says or does is twisted to make it sound like she's guilty.

JMO

 

[hollyblue]

I posted that article yesterday about the gun battles that raged on Wednesday to prove a point. I don't think that most Americans realize how dangerous it has become along the U.S./Mexican border. I believe that's why so many doubted the wife's story. But those who live along the border, really didn't doubt what she said.

According to the comments in the local articles, seems many in the area don't quite believe her story...including the guy who runs a sport fishing business on the lake. I think most people are aware of the trouble on the border, but I do agree, unless you live in the Western states, they don't know just how bad, scary and crippling it is for the people and economy who live in the border towns or within a few hundred miles of the border. If you live in a major city....anywhere, you get a taste of it. MS13 and other organized gangs are rampant all over the US...not without saying that the cartel has members in other areas as well.

I do not believe the wife's story has changed from the beginning. Let's face it, there has been a number of articles written in various media outlets and from experience, you can only believe half of what's written. It's not always word for word, or they may have a different interpretation, which then makes it seem as if Tiffany's story has changed. Of course more details are revealed as the case progresses. It's not that she changes the story, it's that it's just reported differently.

All you need to do is watch her videos and get it straight from her lip smacking, jaw chewing mouth. Least not forget the dried up tear ducts. For me, it wasn't just what she "confused" in words, but what she did and did not do; the "memorial" only a few days after her husband's disappearance...with no body and the negation of taking a lie detector test. If her story of the incident happened to me....you can bet your bippy I'd be asking the FBI for their best interviewer in that capacity....after all, were talking about doing everything and anything in find your beloved husband......who protected and took a bullet for you. Big ???? there.

Yes, they do hide bodies. They also display them or leave them where they fall. It depends on the circumstances, the cartel, the perp, the message, IF there is one.

The violence that erupted on Wednesday, COULD have been from what happened in Tijuana last week. There was the LARGEST marijuana confiscation in their history. The street value was $ 1/2 BILLION! Can you imagine?! Someone is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, ticked off! Wow!

Just as an aside, JIMHO, I believe they may have been aligning up for what's happening in California on Nov. 2nd, 2010. They're voting to POSSIBLY legalize marijuana. I believe they may have been filling their stores, if you will, to be ready on IF the bill passes. IF it doesn't pass, they still have a market, but if it does pass, that $ 1/2B worth of marijuana, would be but a drop in the bucket, as far as demand. Because honestly, IF they pass it, people from the neighboring states will be flocking to California to purchase and then MANY will most likely return to their state and distribute. IMHO, that's the scary part.

It's a known fact that the cartel and other distributors of illegal drugs are now focusing on other drugs ....heroin, crack, OTC drugs, and especially meth....which is very poor quality and much cheaper than the good ole boys here make and distribute. I can't express how "horrific" this drug is. It's literally poison, VERY addicting, and you don't want to pizz off anyone on it....dangerous. They generate more profit and it' much, much more easily transportable than marijuana.
ARTICLE:

"Legalizing marijuana in California would not appreciably influence the Mexican drug trafficking organizations and the related violence unless exports from California drive Mexican marijuana out of the market in other states," said Beau Kilmer, the study's lead author and co-director of the RAND Drug Policy Research Center. "If that happens, then legalization could reduce some of the Mexican drug violence in the long run. But even then, legalization may not have much impact in the short run."

http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-10-legalizing-marijuana-california-substantially-cartel.html

I believe David and Tiffany THOUGHT it was safe to return to Mexico just one last time. IF there was trouble, David thought he could handle it. But you don't go into enemy territory unarmed, especially when the enemy has unlimited fire-power.

We don't know that they were unarmed, as they both had firearms knowledge. He was a member of the NRA. Weapon could be in the lake or in the hands of others at this point.

Unfortunately, David paid a very high price for his decision and Tiffany and David's entire family will have a life-time of regrets.

I feel for David's family....Tiffany...she'll just "move on"....unless the ATF, DEA and FBI find something. But unless this investigation is also investigated as a MP/possible homicide...true justice will be not be served for David....and we all know Tiff doesn't want justice now don't we....just a body.


JMHO
fran

PS...I don't know if you all noticed in the article yesterday, but a U.S. soldier was killed in one of those shoot-outs. He was originally from Mexico and was home visiting his family and got caught in the cross-fire. The U.S. military officials and FBI are attempting to find out exactly what happened. fran

This is all JMO. HB

 

[kemo]

This case is quite puzzling as I know nothing about Jet-skis and very little about the border drug-violence situation. What sets off my "hinkie meter", and what will keep it ringing louder and louder is the continuing failue for a body or the jet-ski to turn up.

If a shooting really occured, they could have been common robbers who only shot because the intended victim wouldn't stop or drug-gang members who thought they posed some sort of threat to thier operations. Either way, they would have figured out real quick that they had killed an American (who probably had nothing to do with suggling) and the survivor would be contacting the authorities real quick. The only reasonable approach would be to get outta Dodge FAST. I can see taking the time to sink the jet-ski (how easy is that?) and weighing down the body if it hadn't already sunk, but attempting to tow the jet-ski anywhere would have been very slow and obvious. As for pulling David's body into one of those boats; it would not be that easy. He was a big guy. Pulling that much weight into a small boat is a good way capsize it and, if they got it in the boat, they would have a dead body in very plain sight. I just don't see it. There should be a Jet-ski near the crime scene and body within reasonable "drift" of it. If there isn't, I gotta wonder if David is really dead at all.

 

[Waddles]

I have a feeling that whatever happened to DH, whether he was killed in the exact way his wife describes it or whether he was victim of foul play in some other way or if he's still alive then in all three cases someone would be making sure we're not going to find the jetski

 

[hollyblue]

Although I believe Stratfor was presumptuous and maybe a little self serving in the non confirmed disappearance of DH, they do know the workings of the cartels in Mexico and beyond. This is an excellent piece of information with maps, etc. for people to grasp the situation. This is not gang territorial rifts, this is what I would call a country in the mist of turmoil, civil war and revolution. It is fueled by the economies of various nations...and the tentacles reach world wide. imo.


http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010102211938/us/homeland-security/the-falcon-lake-murder-and-mexicos-drug-wars.html

 

[fran]

Of course the guy who lives and works close to the border is going to say he questions the wife's story. He's trying to deflect.

Look what happened when on the weekend the Mexican side said they knew who the perps were, then there was a denial and they wouldn't allow anyone to talk to the head LE and the next thing we know, the head LE guy ends up dead.

Seriously, think about it.

As far as the wife goes, of course her first thought is for the return of her husband. The idea that someone is going to just disgard your loved one like a piece of garbage is unthinkable. So Tiffany saying she just wants to bring David home, it understandable, IMHO.

As far as her not necessarily wanting the culprits caught, again, think of what happened to the LE officer who said he knew who it was. He's dead.

The idea of watching the wife's every move, eye blink, the way she looked at the camera or not looked, the way she dressed, wore her hair, etc., etc., etc., it's well, misplaced scrutiny, IMHO.

Just like one pros who lost a murder case said, 'dna has ruined much of the publics view of 'evidence.' People now think that there HAS TO BE DNA evidence or the suspect isn't guilty.' Something along those lines. Anyway, that is NOT true. Just like many people believe there is ALWAYS finerprints, which is also NOT TRUE.

I just say those things because one of my daughters is a forensic chemist and she told me this.

Anyway, at the beginning of this, many people seemed like they didn't believe Tiffany because there was no video.

I believe that some people may want to step back and go over the facts and realize that sometimes, bad things happen to good people. People make errors in judgment that can cost them their life. And people disappear, eventhough you know where the body SHOULD be, and there are a LOT of people being killed along the U.S./Mexican border. Both Mexican, Americans, South American, etc., etc.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

From what I read in one article, these guys going out on that lake in those fishing boats are GUARDING THEIR TERRITORY.

Just like gangs do for various streets and locations here in the U.S. in any city.

Not too long ago, here in So. Calif, in the LA Country area, a family found themselves in downtown area of L.A., late at night. They were lost and accidentally turned down a dead-end street...................It was the WRONG STREET to find yourself in IF you didn't belong to a certain gang.

Gangsters opened fire and killed one of the children asleep in the car.

All because the family accidentally entered a particular gang's territory.

It's a shame this couple made the wrong decision that day, but who knew? Well some did but didn't discourage David insisting he could take care of himself.

What a terrible lesson to learn.

JMHO
fran

 

[IzzyBlanche]

A few random comments: I find it very strange that there has been no mention of a reward for the return of David's remains.

As for the Stratfor (sp?) report, I can't remember any other prominent case in which an outside company, unconnected to the investigation and apparently not at the request of law enforcement authorities, started publicly espousing theories about what happened.

It makes me wonder what their agenda is.

I haven't seen anyone on this forum accuse Tiffany of being guilty of anything besides not telling the truth. Nor do I think anyone has commented on the way Tiffany has dressed or worn her hair.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Just to point out how vicious these cartels are and how they have absolutely NO REGARD for human life:

I believe it was mentioned in the article yesterday, but within the past few months, close to the Mexican/U.S. border, in Mexico, they came upon 72 bodies. All had been murdered. Men, women, teenagers, all murdered in cold blood.

The 72 people had committed no crime and were not involved in the drug trade. They were Mexican and South American immigrants headed for the U.S. border. The drug cartel wanted them to work for them, be assassins. When the people refused, they were murdered.

Men, women, teenagers,

I believe Tiffany's story.

JMHO
fran

But the cartels had a motive for killing those people--they refused to work for them.

What is their motive in this case?

Why in this case did the culprits just start shooting for no apparent reason? According to Tiffany's account, unlike the other incidents on the lake, she and David weren't first approached and asked for money--or anything else.

If it was to steal the jet skis, why did they wait until David and Tiffany started to leave before shooting at them? Why didn't they just descend upon them while they were stopped taking pictures? Wouldn't that be easier than letting them go and then trying to stop them?

Even if one assumes that these were young, inexperienced Zetitas and it was a case of mistaken identity and/or an accident because they didn't know how to handle their guns, that does not square with the fact that they apparently knew that to restart the jet ski they would have to get the key off David's body.

To me, it just doesn't add up.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

From what I read in one article, these guys going out on that lake in those fishing boats are GUARDING THEIR TERRITORY.

[snipped for space]

Yet they are so polite that they give friendly waves to intruders and allow them to take a few pictures before chasing them out of their territory and shooting at them.

 

[fran]

I have no idea who this company is. I also don't know what their agenda is.

As for mentioning the clothes she wore or her hair, those were just examples. People have talked about tears, or not tears, etc......who knows why people think she isn't telling the truth.

Why do you think she hasn't told all she knows? Maybe she has and she KNOWS NOTHING.

As for these alleged gangsters or whatever, knowing they needed a key to start the jetski, you're assuming they knew they needed a key. I didn't know that. Who's to say they didn't find out afterwards?

See, this is the problem with watching these cases AFTER THE FACT, much of the speculation is based on ASSUMPTIONS and SPECULATIONS. NOT based on fact. It's easy to sit back afterwards and say, I would have done that or this or they shouldn't have done that. I do that every time I realize I was mistaken. I shouldn't have been so quick to jump the gun, or I should have gone by my 'inner voice,' whatever.

We do NOT know how the gangsters approached other fisherman or whatever they approached and ended up robbing on this lake. So that part is left as UNKNOWN.

Sorry, but it just seems to me that some are trying to make this woman guilty or that the husband is still alive, because we haven't personally seen evidence of the body.

These are not rational people we're dealing with. These are criminals and they will do ANYTHING to make $$$$. I've given a few examples. One is not more acceptable than the others. This is an untimely death and it's difficult for us to even fathom that someone could take 'life' so lightly. Of course, that's someone else's life they take lightly, but they'll fight to the death to save themselves.

JMHO
fran

PS....oh, and the M O T I V E in this case is BECAUSE THEY CAN!......imho, fran

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I have no idea who this company is. I also don't know what their agenda is.

As for mentioning the clothes she wore or her hair, those were just examples.

With all due respect, they are examples of things that have not happened, as far as I am aware, so are not in any way on an equal plane with the other things people are questioning.

People have talked about tears, or not tears, etc......who knows why people think she isn't telling the truth.

In the case of Susan Smith, one of the things that made investigators suspicious was that she would sob but no tears would come out:

'Agent Caldwell noted that from time to time during his interview with Susan, she would sob, but tears would not always accompany her apparent crying. The FBI agent, who administered her polygraph test on October 27, noted that Susan made "fake sounds of crying with no tears in her eyes."'

Source: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/smith/invest_7.html

So if law enforcement officers sometimes think this could be a sign of deception, and Tiffany is doing the same thing, I think it's a legitimate subject for discussion, as is any other aspect of her demeanor.


Why do you think she hasn't told all she knows? Maybe she has and she KNOWS NOTHING.

Because her "story" keeps changing. Because instead of referring to it as "what happened to me" or any other term a person normally uses to refer to something that happened to them, she keeps calling it "my story." Instead of simply saying, for example, that Mexican officials "believe me", she says, "they believe my story."

Part 2 coming up next:

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Reply continued:

Plus, her demeanor in the 911 call is completely hinky IMO. The Good Samaritan puts her on the phone and the first thing she says is, "Hello?"--like "Who's this?" or "What do you want?"--in exactly the same way I do when the phone rings and Mr. IzzyBlanche answers it and hands it to me saying, "It's for you." Then she just waits silently for the dispatcher's questions.

I completely agree that no one knows how one would react in a situation until one is actually in that situation, but I defy anyone here to say honestly that they can, even remotely, imagine being in her situation and, having seen the "love of her life" shot before her eyes and agonizing over having to leave him beyond to save her own life, would not be screaming into the phone, "My husband's just been shot and I tried to help him but had to leave him behind and get people out here to look for him NOW!"

Shock? I don't think so. She'd just gotten off the Jet Ski after being chased by gun-wielding pirates shooting at her, according to her "story." Thus the adrenaline "fight or flight" response would have still been in high gear. That is basic human biology.

So despite her pleas after the fact for David's body, she sure didn't ask for help to retrieve it when she called 911. At least as far as I've heard from the parts I've listened to.

As for these alleged gangsters or whatever, knowing they needed a key to start the jetski, you're assuming they knew they needed a key. I didn't know that. Who's to say they didn't find out afterwards?

No, I am not assuming that. I am questioning how they got the jet ski out of there so quickly if they did not know how to start it, and if they did know how to start it, that doesn't jibe with young careless punk cartel member wannabes.

When I say quickly, I am referring to an early article I read about the case (which much to my frustration I have been unable to find again, but I will keep looking). I mean really early, breaking news early, along the lines of "Locals are hearing helicopters after an alleged shooting on Falcon Lake."

Yet those searches turned up nothing. So how was that jet ski--and David's body--spirited away so quickly by these incompetents?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Part 3, you'll all be glad to know: :woohoo:

See, this is the problem with watching these cases AFTER THE FACT, much of the speculation is based on ASSUMPTIONS and SPECULATIONS. NOT based on fact. It's easy to sit back afterwards and say, I would have done that or this or they shouldn't have done that. I do that every time I realize I was mistaken. I shouldn't have been so quick to jump the gun, or I should have gone by my 'inner voice,' whatever.

Fair enough. However, isn't the drug-cartel-members-did-it theory equally based on assumptions and speculations? It's easy enough to sit back and say, they did this before, they are known to do this, so obviously they must have done it in this case. There are no facts supporting this theory. Even assuming the murder of the Mexican investigator is related to the case is just that, an assumption, without concrete supporting evidence that we know of.

We do NOT know how the gangsters approached other fisherman or whatever they approached and ended up robbing on this lake. So that part is left as UNKNOWN.

If you believe Tiffany's word, you must believe the word of the fisherman to whom this happened, no? I am too tired right now to look this up myself, but yes, we do know--from the accounts I've read--that those victims were approached by men with guns who demanded money. Not men who just started shooting at them for no apparent reason.

Sorry, but it just seems to me that some are trying to make this woman guilty or that the husband is still alive, because we haven't personally seen evidence of the body.

These are not rational people we're dealing with. These are criminals and they will do ANYTHING to make $$$$. I've given a few examples. One is not more acceptable than the others. This is an untimely death and it's difficult for us to even fathom that someone could take 'life' so lightly. Of course, that's someone else's life they take lightly, but they'll fight to the death to save themselves.

JMHO
fran

PS....oh, and the M O T I V E in this case is BECAUSE THEY CAN!......imho, fran

Is this not assumption? Or speculation?
Well I could say just my :twocents: but this was more like fifteen dollars so goodnight all.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

The tears/no tears thing makes no sense to me. I can not judge anybody on that and I'll tell you why.

Many people who go through something tragic don't cry when interviewed. This makes everyone point the finger at them.

I'm not sure if anyone in here followed Somer's case (was a year ago this past Tues.), but her mother was targeted by so many people. They all said she cried no tears. She is guilty.
Well, guess what, she was not guilty. A neighbor killed her child. She was devistated. I don't know why she didn't have as many tears as people "wanted" her to have. Maybe medication, maybe shock. I just don't know.

But, I will NEVER use that as an example of guilt. I watched for months here and elsewhere as DT was bashed and blamed for the murder of her daughter.

It sickens me to be quite honest.

We don't know what happened on that lake that day. But, I can not sit here and call her a liar. Nobody here KNOWS she is lying. She is a victim until LE states otherwise.

JMO

 

[IzzyBlanche]

As far as I recall, the complaints against Somer's mother was that she did not cry at all.

Not that she sobbed and no tears came out.

Perhaps I'm mistaken on this.

But if not, there's a big difference IMO.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

As far as I recall, the complaints against Somer's mother was that she did not cry at all.

Not that she sobbed and no tears came out.

Perhaps I'm mistaken on this.

But if not, there's a big difference IMO.

Yes, you are mistaken. She was devistated and sobbed. Her face got red and I could tell she was hurting. But, no tears.

She was also bashed for the dress she wore to the funeral, her choice of boyfriend, the way she sang at the vigils, the way she gave too many interviews.... The list went on and on for 4 months. Even after an arrest in the case people couldn't let it go. They wanted to believe DT was guilty for so long, they just could not face the fact that someone else did it.

I see the same thing happening in this case. No matter what info comes out and even if they arrest someone tomorrow, people have wanted to believe TH is guilty for so long, they will not ever believe she is not guilty.

JMO and just the way I see it.

 

[fran]

Two cases that I particularly recall following here on WS was the Laci Peterson case and the Natalee Holloway case.

I don't want to get into a discussion about the parents here. But I just want to say that there were many times that these two mothers appeared before the camera and were strong, determined and yes, they had NO TEARS.

But I recall listening, or reading about Laci's mom speaking before the court in the sentencing and it was said, there was NOT A DRY EYE IN THE COURTROOM,.......................oh, other than SP, I would imagine. But you read Sharon Rocha's book, and you see the devastating goings on BEHIND THE SCENE. In my wildest imagination, it was MUCH WORSE than that.

OTOH, Beth Twitty/Holloway, was very determined, strong, out-spoken, accused, maligned, mistreated, and called every name in the book by those who wanted her to 'just go away!' Even to this day, Beth is mistreated, at least on the blogs-sphere,.................but I recall VERY EARLY in the disappearance of Natalee, when Beth got before the cameras and spoke very strong and wanted everyone to do what they could to find her missing daughter,.................................but one camera caught her as she turned away and she was embraced by ?????, but she had that moment when she almost literally collapsed in someone's arms and was crying quite intensely. I only saw it one time, but it left an imprint in my mind.

I've lost loved ones and know how it feels. That YOU are to be the strong one and you hold back. You may start to tear up and you STOP YOURSELF, because you KNOW if you start, EVERYONE will be in tears. Seriously, it's a very difficult position to be in.

Ok, I'm going to go away from this case now. I think I've said my peace. If YOU want to NOT believe Tiffany, that's your choice. I believe her and feel nothing but empathy for her. She's very young to be a widow, but I know HOW that feels. So I have nothing else to add......Except, I wish Tiffany the best and my condolences to her and David's family.

sincerely,
fran
:rose:


PS...just for the record, I've been widowed twice. Although 35 years in between, neither was easier than the other. First time I was YOUNGER than Tiffany and had a 3 mos old baby. The second time I had five grown children and was NOT prepared for EITHER time. I know what it feels like to HAVE TO BE THE STRONG ONE. I guess that may make me a little bit more, I don't know, over-compassionate. Maybe I miss some things. I don't know. But I've been in a place close to where Tiffany is, (not murder, but unexpected) and I'm still trying to figure out, HOW are you supposed to act? You're upset, you're heartbroken, you're destroyed inside, your life plans are destroyed, your world is crumbling and what?????

 

[Waddles]

Just friendly advice -I think some posters need to be careful how they quote other posters as it is confusing -some of the quotes appear to be written by someone else because it has text within it so it's difficult to see who wrote what originally. There is a way to quote just sections of texts and then write below.