MI, Grand Blanc - Mass Shooting at Mormon Church, fire, 28 Sept 2025

  • #421
I believe the OP might mean all LDS Churches have a standardized set of building plans. No matter where you build the material and design specifications are all the same, except maybe the size or something specific to State building codes.
I work as an electrical engineering consultant and have helped with many Church projects. While there are several standardized layouts for new buildings, older LDS meetinghouses can vary quite a bit in design. The most common upgrades I see in these older buildings are HVAC improvements or standard preventative maintenance.

I noticed what appears to be some upper windows in the drone footage of the Grand Blanc meetinghouse. I’ve occasionally seen a second level of classrooms in LDS churches, but not very often—so that feature would likely be unique to the Grand Blanc building if they did have an upper floor (I could be mistaken on the second level). On my mission in Manchester, Iowa, I recall a smaller LDS congregation (a branch rather than a ward) that met in a former funeral home, which had originally been a residential mansion. Wards generally require around 300 or more active members, while branches are smaller congregations that may meet in rented spaces—or even in a member’s home in more remote areas.

There were also a couple of recent incidents of carbon monoxide exposure in meetinghouses, which led the Church to implement carbon monoxide detection in all buildings being renovated or worked on. This isn’t typically required by code, so it shows that they sometimes go above and beyond for safety. I’ve also seen seismic upgrades in temples to help reduce potential damage during earthquakes.

A few years ago, it was common for church buildings to be funded by local congregations, who would raise money for construction. Nowadays, that has changed, and funds are allocated from Church headquarters.
 
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  • #422
I would say to that, if you're a butch ex military guy going for a tatt to make people back the heck up from you, a dreamcatcher isn't an obvious choice? It's more the kind of thing you see on hippy girls who like yoga and crystals. That's his most obvious tattoo that's visible when he's wearing a t shirt. Sure, there's a strand of barbed wire above it, but it's far smaller and less prominent.

MOO

I didn’t mean “back the heck off”. I meant “your gaze should roll off my outer appearance”. Here is a very different example, on the totally opposite end of human qualities that we see more often: a very nice, good-looking student, slightly shy, great looks and clothes, straight A but never boasting it, somewhat thin, toned and super polished. The epitome of perfection covering a person who is horrified of being judged and prefers not to be noticed at all. It has nothing to do with criminality, of course, I am describing the nicest human beings now. But JMO outer perfection may cover deep insecurity and dislike of oneself. “maybe their gazes will roll off my looks and not go deeper” is just the defense people might use.

This guy does it differently: his look is not perfect but it is dramatic. He actively welcomes people to look at his tattoos, his flags, all the ornaments on him and around him, so that the outsiders get distracted and don’t get closer, not do they see the real him. There is some emptiness and insecurity that he is afraid of people to see. He behaves in a super friendly way, even moving neighbors lawns. He has a beard, and on younger photos his cadet cap is almost covering his eyes. His image is a barrier. All MOO.

He is not afraid of people coming closer physically …he is afraid of people looking inside him and judging him. This part is not about his hate of LDS, it is not a mental illness, just the defense. The hatred he wears on the sleeve, it is even a conversation topic, and as you correctly said, LDS is his monomania. The rest is deepest insecurity. (It seems that he had a very good family btw, ideal for him, and I am shocked at what he did to them. I wish them to get all the help, they are victims here too IMO).

Don’t get me wrong, I am horribly angry with him, for splitting the world into good and evil, for even thinking this way, even for having no strength of character to kick the drug habit that played a certain role in the end. Also, for not learning till his 40es…Surely the world, the community and the hospital were kind to his family! This was his chance to see the reality and maybe to pay back in some charity work, but he chose the opposite. (Split it into black and white and killed people.) But the flags and tattoos were his barrier JMO.
 
  • #423
This reminds me of 2 Kings 6. Elisha and his city were surrounded by the enemy, yet he prayed for the Lord to blind them, led them to Samaria, opened their eyes again, and instructed the king to feed them before sending them on their way. What strikes me is that Israel was going through a very difficult season at the time, so feeding the enemy soldiers wasn’t just generous—it was costly.

Reading about the LDS members raising money for the shooter’s wife and children reminds me of that same principle — showing mercy and care even when it’s unexpected and difficult. True Christianity often looks like kindness to those we wouldn’t naturally think to help.
This reminds me of 2 Kings 6. Elisha and his city were surrounded by the enemy, yet he prayed for the Lord to blind them, led them to Samaria, opened their eyes again, and instructed the king to feed them before sending them on their way. What strikes me is that Israel was going through a very difficult season at the time, so feeding the enemy soldiers wasn’t just generous—it was costly.

Reading about the LDS members raising money for the shooter’s wife and children reminds me of that same principle — showing mercy and care even when it’s unexpected and difficult. True Christianity often looks like kindness to those we wouldn’t naturally think to help.

“I don’t like that man. I must get to know him better.” -Abraham Lincoln
 
  • #424
This article quotes his friends saying he struggled with addiction to meth. That would also explain some things.
Meth rots the brain even worse than the body
 
  • #425
A Michigan church is confirming that the man accused of opening fire at a Grand Blanc Township house of worship had a recent encounter at one of its locations just days before the deadly attack.

According to the church’s statement, Sanford became agitated during that conversation, though he showed no signs of physical violence and left without incident. “While he became agitated during that interaction, he did not show any indication of physical violence, and he and his family left without incident,” the statement read.


I am going to report this post because I still don’t know if Dave Bondy is allowed. He’s a reputable local independent reporter


Dave Bondy was approved by admin for the this discussion only, I’ll keep an eye out for updated articles.
 
  • #426
The church where the was an encounter with the perp is a non-denominational Christain church and is not an LDS chuch. Just wanted to point that out.

jmopinion
Which makes it even more confusing.

If he had an "encounter" at a non-denom Christian church, why then turn around a week later and shoot up/set fire to the Mormon church?
 
  • #427
  • #428
ADMIN NOTE:

Posts about football and sexual orientation and the church's policy on gays have been removed as off topic.
 
  • #429
Which makes it even more confusing.

If he had an "encounter" at a non-denom Christian church, why then turn around a week later and shoot up/set fire to the Mormon church?

It sounds like they were there for a reason - to get info about baptism. I thought that was interesting
 
  • #430
I differ. He was out there in the open. Everyone knew he was crazy, despite being affable & laughable at times. Its a sign for us all. We *know* when someone is not right in the head. They all knew. It was just *easier* to laugh him off. Of course, none of us can know in advance that the "not right thinking" folks in our spheres will shoot up a school or church or grocery store or annihilate an entire family but we CAN learn to admit when a person is off their rocker.
Is it "easier" to laugh people like Sanford off, or is it the case that there's pretty much nothing that can be done about them until they have done something like shoot up a church/school/business? If everyone who spouted off in the way that Sanford did was banged up long term in the loony bin, it would probably take a significant proportion of American men off the streets permanently.
 
  • #431
I can’t help but wonder if this could be related to the Charlie Kirk assasination? Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the man who killed him a member of LDS? Did the church attacker in Grand Blanc see himself as avenging Kirk’s death perhaps?
I do wonder if you might be on to something here. Clearly, something happened recently to tip him over the edge from hatred to murderous violence. It's certainly not impossible that the killing of somebody on his side (as I'm sure Sanford saw Charlie Kirk), by somebody who grew up in the faith he despised, could be the catalyst that got him thinking 'I'll get them Mormons'. Without any sort of manifesto being left behind we might never know for sure, though.
 
  • #432
Is it "easier" to laugh people like Sanford off, or is it the case that there's pretty much nothing that can be done about them until they have done something like shoot up a church/school/business? If everyone who spouted off in the way that Sanford did was banged up long term in the loony bin, it would probably take a significant proportion of American men off the streets permanently.
IMO, if they are lone wolves, most people who are angry and rigid are unlikely to cause destruction like he did, thank goodness. Instead, they tend to destroy their own lives by ruining relationships and creating chaos for people close to them. imo

But if they are engaged with other like-minded people, such as through an online community that eggs each other on, I do worry about what such angry, rigid people will feel compelled to do. My opinion.

We haven't heard yet if he was active with online groups or not, as far as I know.

What compelled him to act on his hatred? idk

jmopinion
 
  • #433
Is it "easier" to laugh people like Sanford off, or is it the case that there's pretty much nothing that can be done about them until they have done something like shoot up a church/school/business? If everyone who spouted off in the way that Sanford did was banged up long term in the loony bin, it would probably take a significant proportion of American men off the streets permanently.
There are numerous actions that can and are regularly done short of 'locking people up in the looney bin". A very simple "hey brother, thats some messed up thinking," instead of nodding, laughing heartily, throwing another log on the fire and handing him another beer (or whatever substance) might have made all the difference in the world. We'll never know. Suggesting he talk to a professional, showing nonapproval for a crazy obsession, ANYTHING beyond simply NOTHING might have prevented this tragedy.

I understand the councilman or strangers at large just wanting to get away from him withoit incident since ppl generally sense when someone is not right in the head but those closest to him who were friends and close family, did they EVER tell him he had an unhealthy fixation and needed help? Did he have anger management issues in general and how were they handled?

I'm also guessing he had some habits that generated high loads of glutamate flooding his brain. Stress alone can do that. He may not have been doing meth lately but meth generates super high levels of irritating glutamate in the brain, thus its well known association with violence out of control.Some foods are naturally very high in naturally occurring glutamate and push some people over the edge. Some drugs that treat anxiety, ocd, and obsessiveness are glutamate blockers. I'd love to know, in addition to what events may have stressed him just before this crazy episode, what he ate, drank, and consumed, that might have loaded this walking talking time bomb. Did he miss a dose of glutamate blocking medication shortly before this episode?

I do hope more info will eventually be released.
 
  • #434
I understand the councilman or strangers at large just wanting to get away from him withoit incident since ppl generally sense when someone is not right in the head but those closest to him who were friends and close family, did they EVER tell him he had an unhealthy fixation and needed help? Did he have anger management issues in general and how were they handled?
.
snipped

I WISH family/friends could confront in the spirit of helping, but I also understand it's not as simple as that seems. If this person were truly obsessed, it's likely a situation beyond what family members can address other than holding their own head above water and hoping for peace one day at a time. Maintaining peace in the home can be exhausting, I would imagine. imo

For all we know, family did say something. We really don't know anything yet. But I'm empathetic to how difficult rigid people like that can be.

jmopinion
 
  • #435
There are numerous actions that can and are regularly done short of 'locking people up in the looney bin". A very simple "hey brother, thats some messed up thinking," instead of nodding, laughing heartily, throwing another log on the fire and handing him another beer (or whatever substance) might have made all the difference in the world. We'll never know. Suggesting he talk to a professional, showing nonapproval for a crazy obsession, ANYTHING beyond simply NOTHING might have prevented this tragedy.

I understand the councilman or strangers at large just wanting to get away from him withoit incident since ppl generally sense when someone is not right in the head but those closest to him who were friends and close family, did they EVER tell him he had an unhealthy fixation and needed help? Did he have anger management issues in general and how were they handled?

I'm also guessing he had some habits that generated high loads of glutamate flooding his brain. Stress alone can do that. He may not have been doing meth lately but meth generates super high levels of irritating glutamate in the brain, thus its well known association with violence out of control.Some foods are naturally very high in naturally occurring glutamate and push some people over the edge. Some drugs that treat anxiety, ocd, and obsessiveness are glutamate blockers. I'd love to know, in addition to what events may have stressed him just before this crazy episode, what he ate, drank, and consumed, that might have loaded this walking talking time bomb. Did he miss a dose of glutamate blocking medication shortly before this episode?

I do hope more info will eventually be released.

His family and friends are victims, too.
 
  • #436
I do wonder if you might be on to something here. Clearly, something happened recently to tip him over the edge from hatred to murderous violence. It's certainly not impossible that the killing of somebody on his side (as I'm sure Sanford saw Charlie Kirk), by somebody who grew up in the faith he despised, could be the catalyst that got him thinking 'I'll get them Mormons'. Without any sort of manifesto being left behind we might never know for sure, though.

I'm not so sure.

With MH issues NOT properly treated,
it is usually a downward spiral for some people.
Sooner or later tragedy happens.

And there are always incidents in the country/world folks might link it with.

But the real reason is sickness of the perp's mind.

It is all in the mind.

JMO!!!
 
  • #437
Moo...just my own opinion. I am acquainted with many people mid 30 n up age, that have rigid views of politics, religion, vaccines, chem trails, government surveillance, immigration etc,etc . I listen but , people are entitled to their opinions. That's their thing. But no way do I expect them to do anything violent about their beliefs. It's not my place to second guess people's possible actions...
Moo
 
  • #438
Moo...just my own opinion. I am acquainted with many people mid 30 n up age, that have rigid views of politics, religion, vaccines, chem trails, government surveillance, immigration etc,etc . I listen but , people are entitled to their opinions. That's their thing. But no way do I expect them to do anything violent about their beliefs. It's not my place to second guess people's possible actions...
Moo

There is a difference between an opinion and an obsession.

Obsessions usually lead people astray.

JMO
 
  • #439
There is a difference between an opinion and an obsession.

Obsessions usually lead people astray.

JMO
Yeah, and there is a difference between strong opinion and rigidity. It sounds like this guy would talk about LDS when other people around him were not interested and were tired of it. That's beyond holding an opinion. He was not flexible enough to set aside his interests when interacting with people like most of us know how to do. imo

Being rigid is not a sign of strength. Rigid things break. Being flexible is stronger. This perp does not appear as flexible, and it's baffling because he had people dependant upon him. You'd think he'd have the flexibility to set aside his impulses for their benefit. Something broke. imo

I guess that sets him apart from other rampage perps. Going off my memory, it's not common that a married father commits destructive crimes like this. jmo

jmopinion
 
  • #440
I live approximately 1.5 hours from Grabd Blanc. A lady I work with grew up there and knows one of the shooting victims who survived. Apparently he’s in a coma and just underwent a second surgery. So shocking and upsetting..
Wishing a quick recovery. My brother lives in Fenton there
 

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