GUILTY MI - Jesse Miles, 69, shot to death, Niles Twp, 7 March 2010

[kbl8201]

if that last line is implying that he killed his grandfather cause he was upset about his friend......lets just say i can buy the schizophrenia story better.

 

[Missizzy]

You know, kbl, I hate to say this, but I don't know if it's schizophrenia or typical lack of understanding of consequences of most teens. This boy certainly had a lot of the danger signals for violence but I'm not even sure he recognized he was in trouble. His family sure didn't.

Every single day, naive and stupid (and I say that with love in my heart) teenagers drive drunk, text while they are driving, have sex without protection, etc, etc. and honestly never think of the consequences-no more so than the five year old who throws the baseball in the living room.

Most kids have been so protected from handling the aftermath of natural and logical consequences of their actions....at both ends of the parenting spectrum....that they are honestly surprised when Papa lies there dead or the cheerleading squad are killed because they took their eyes off the road or they miss their period because they didn't use a condom. That's why I rant and rave about the book, "The Primal Teen", as it simply explains why these connections are not made in the teen years, and often not until the mid-twenties.

Some can yell and scream and say that they didn't make those mistakes. I would hazard a guess, however, that either they were fortunate or they had some serious guidance or they attended the "school of hard knocks educational program" in how consequences work.

We can all argue until the cows come home about whether they should have known the consequences. Sure, they should have, but they usually don't. I think our parenting has changed in such a way as to insure kids that there's always a way to fix everything. It's either a video game where you just re-invent your character and come alive again or if you've run out of gas, you get on your cell phone and call AAA (which your Dad so helpfully bought for you). What ever happened to walking back to the gas station which was three miles back? As a society, we're losing a lot of the grasp of the simplest lessons.

You shoot the gun, somebody dies. They don't get up. JMO

 

[kbl8201]

You know, kbl, I hate to say this, but I don't know if it's schizophrenia or typical lack of understanding of consequences of most teens. This boy certainly had a lot of the danger signals for violence but I'm not even sure he recognized he was in trouble. His family sure didn't.

Every single day, naive and stupid (and I say that with love in my heart) teenagers drive drunk, text while they are driving, have sex without protection, etc, etc. and honestly never think of the consequences-no more so than the five year old who throws the baseball in the living room.

Most kids have been so protected from handling the aftermath of natural and logical consequences of their actions....at both ends of the parenting spectrum....that they are honestly surprised when Papa lies there dead or the cheerleading squad are killed because they took their eyes off the road or they miss their period because they didn't use a condom. That's why I rant and rave about the book, "The Primal Teen", as it simply explains why these connections are not made in the teen years, and often not until the mid-twenties.

Some can yell and scream and say that they didn't make those mistakes. I would hazard a guess, however, that either they were fortunate or they had some serious guidance or they attended the "school of hard knocks educational program" in how consequences work.

We can all argue until the cows come home about whether they should have known the consequences. Sure, they should have, but they usually don't. I think our parenting has changed in such a way as to insure kids that there's always a way to fix everything. It's either a video game where you just re-invent your character and come alive again or if you've run out of gas, you get on your cell phone and call AAA (which your Dad so helpfully bought for you). What ever happened to walking back to the gas station which was three miles back? As a society, we're losing a lot of the grasp of the simplest lessons.

You shoot the gun, somebody dies. They don't get up. JMO

you know there are plenty of adults that do the same things (sex without protection drunk driving ect).

not to mention murder.

thats part of the issue i have with the whole frontal lobe thing. when someone is 45 and there frontal lobe is mature.....whats there excuse? it also lumps any teenager into a group where every single one of them is a ticking time bomb, which is just plain absurd.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

“You ever hear people talk about voices in their head?” he said. He tried to explain. “It’s not so much that but multiple personalities,” Eliason said, adding there are good and bad sides to a person.

BBM

This kid is claiming to have multiple personalities (mpd/did)? The only way that a kid would have MPD is if he was being abused, or had undergone such a traumatic event that would cause his core personality to split.


I am diagnosed with MPD/DID, and have underwent a ton of abuse. Thats how mine developed, and thats how 99.9% develop MPD. Its a coping mechanism, for something that is so tough that you could never imagina anyoen being able to survive it and be a whole person again.

Often schizophrenia and MPD are misdiagnosed. This kid could be hearing voices in his head, and that would/could be his other personalities talking to him. Just because you hear voices in your head does NOT mean that you are schizophrenic. Its when you hear voices that are telling you to kill someone/ or yourself, that it could be Schizophrenia.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but my other personalities talk to me in my head, and its quite comical at times... But, its if and when I start haveing the tv talk to me, and interrupt my thoughts that it would be considered schizophrenia.

 

[kbl8201]

he has multiple disorders confused with schizophrenia lady bass.

its not like someone his age is brushed up on this stuff

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

What do you mean?

In that article, it states specifically that he was saying it was Multiple personalities.


He very wellc ould have Multiple personality's, it would be hard fro me to make that diagnosis, HOWEVER like I satetd before, just because he is caliming to hear voices in his head does NOT mean he is schizophrenic.

Drs OFTEN misdiagnose schizophrenia for Multiple personality disorder.

Seen it done a million times ( ok I am exaggerating here) but some drs don't even think MPD is a legit diagnosis, and would much rather diagnose schizophrenia, then mpd. I know its a legit Diagnose, I live with it every day.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

He tried to say that it was voices in his head, and sounds to me like he was asking the police whether they had ever heard of Multiple personality's, is almost like he is trying to use that diagnose as an excuse for shooting his grandfather. Setting up a defence so to speak. But the courts are not goingt o allow it. I don't care whether you have 1000000 personalities, you are still responsible for your actions regardless whether a different personality is out or not.

 

[kbl8201]

voices in his head is schizophrenia, personalties taking over your head is did, unless your are intergrated, which i doubt he would be since, if any of this is true, he doesnt have therapy for it.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

No. Its NOT! Voices in your head is MPD. Voices that you hear from OUTSIDE of your head is Schizophrenia. Beleive me, I know. I live with it EVERY single day.

 

[kbl8201]

thanks.

i'll admit im not an expert

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Symptoms of DID

hearing voices inside their head that are not their own

http://www.medicinenet.com/dissociative_identity_disorder/page2.htm

Schizophrenia Symptoms
Many people with the disorder hear voices. The voices may talk to the person about his or her behavior, order the person to do things, or warn the person of danger. Sometimes the voices talk to each other. People with schizophrenia may hear voices for a long time before family and friends notice the problem.

http://www.medicinenet.com/schizophrenia/article.htm

The big difference with MPD and Schizophrenia is that in schizophrenia, the voices are always telling them that something is out to get them, or they need to harm themselves or others. They are seeing, hearing and feeling things that do NOT exist.

With DID, you are hearing your own alters conversing with each other or the core personality.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

thanks.

i'll admit im not an expert

Ex is something which is past, and spurt is a drop of water under pressure. LOL

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

When a schizophrenic hears "voices" (auditory hallucinations), they are usually psychotic voices, not dissociative voices. There is an important distinction between the two. Psychotic voices are often perceived as coming from outside the subject's body, and the voice in question usually just issues commands. The subject cannot have a two-way conversation with a psychotic voice. A dissociative voice is usually perceived as originating from inside the subjects own head. Dissociative voices are often rational. The subject can have a two-way conversation with a dissociative voice.

http://www.indigohalo.com/mpd_facts__fiction.htm

 

[Missizzy]

Ladybass--You certainly could be right. I'm wondering what your thoughts were on the recent Reuters article concerning children who hear voices. I thought it was actually refreshing and more than a bit surprising. The link is here:

http://in.reuters.com/article/health/idINTRE60O3BE20100125

kbl--I think the place you and I keep missing the mark...talking past each other, is that I firmly believe that children who are born drug exposed, medically fragile, or who have been traumatized can and will NEVER develop a healthy frontal lobe. And the frontal lobe is where all the "temporing" valves are. All children and teens suffer from the slow development of this brain development within the context of our rushed society but many will NEVER develop it. I'm not forgiving it or minimizing it, I'm simply explaining it.

When I trained to help adoptive parents understand their adopted children's deficits, this is what I studied and then went on to teach. Here's a good starting point. Please note that FAS/Fetal Alcohol Syndrome also includes Fetal Substance Exposure (meth, cocaine, prescription drugs, PCP). Heroin is a bit different and the jury's still out on pot.

Here's the link:

http://www.acbr.com/fas/fasmain.htm

Please spend a few minutes reading it. It is not conjecture. It is not theory. It is medical science.

Can everyone wrap their minds around 1 in 8 children. You must have that many children on your block or in your extended family. And these are not just poverty stricken children from multi-generationally dysfunctional families. These are soccer moms and upstanding dads who have a secret problem with drugs. We are just now looking at the long term affects of moms who are taking drugs like Paxil, Prozac, Wellbutrin, etc. while pregnant. We are now certain about the deficits related to mothers and the statistics are not looking so great for Dads who abuse cocaine and meth. From the link:

"The brain's Frontal Lobes control judgement, inhibition, concentration, self-control, conscience, personality and emotional traits as well as cognition and memory, motor speech and movement skills."

and

"It is not curable. A child does not "grow out of it". However, early diagnosis and intensive, and appropriate, intervention can make an enormous difference in the prognosis for the child. There is a small window of opportunity, up to about age 10 or 12, to achieve the greatest potential for an alcohol affected child. That period is when the greatest development of fixed neural pathways occurs. That is when alternative "coping" pathways are most easily built as "work-arounds" to damaged areas of the brain. Time is of the essence."

and

"Of FAE individuals between the ages of 12 and 51:

95% will have mental health problems;
60% will have "disrupted school experience";
60% will experience trouble with the law;
55% will be confined in prison, drug or alcohol treatment centre or mental institution;
52% will exhibit inappropriate sexual behaviour.


Of FAE individuals between 21 and 51:

more than 50% of males and 70% of females will have alcohol and drug problems;
82% will not be able to live independently;
70% will have problems with employment"



And not one of these human beings asked for this disability. It was handed to them in utero and they fight this demon every day of their life.

These statistics are why our family worked our ever-loving butts off to race the clock and to attempt to teach some temporing abilities. Our children did not come with them, that's for sure. We've had some remarkable success but some heart-wrenching failures too.

To be clear, healthy, cared for children develop these coping mechanisms in a very linear fashion. However, there is a time during the teen years that all bets are off. It doesn't matter if you come from the most adoring family and have an IQ of 125 and eat all organic food, your frontal lobe development will lag behind your abilities. This is exactly why I have such a difficult time accepting the fact that 18 year olds can sign up to go to war or even drive a car. And have every ability and right to have sex with anyone they choose. Society has been dealing with the mess of this time of "wilding" since the beginning of time. JMO.

We have to ask ourselves just what we as individuals and we, with our votes, are doing to reach these kids who are very definitely going to affect our lives through no fault of their own.

My heart breaks for this family. But I'm not surprised. At some level, it occurs with substance exposed children and almost every teen every single day around the world. As I write this, I guarantee you that a teen is making a decision which will affect his or her life and their family's life in a negative way forever.

We'll probably have a thread about it tomorrow morning.

 

[kbl8201]

well thats great mz iz. so what your saying is if you are pre disposed to things before you are born that your pretty much screwed.

well i dont believe that. not for a second

 

[southernbrunette]

I'm having a hard time grasping the concept of "hearing voices". Never experienced it, don't know anyone who has..so I don't know if this is these kid's explanation of their conscience or an actual audible voice they are hearing speak to them out loud..which, again..to me that's a very foreign concept with which I have a hard time understanding. So much so it makes me wonder if these people are just evil or curious as to what it feels like to kill someone or whatever, and they use the "hearing voices" thing as a cop out..

To add to that, how are these studies conducted? How can it be proven that these children hear voices? Based on their word alone or is there a scientific way to prove these children hear what they say they hear? Any experts on the field here? I find it remarkable. I just can't imagine hearing voices, and if I ever heard a voice that didn't belong to a physical being in my presence, it'd scare the mess out of me and I'd surely seek help..

 

[southernbrunette]

Thank you for the link, Missizz and for confirming my belief to go against my OB's advice and prescription of taking anti-depressants while pregnant. That link just scared the crap out of me. I was prescribed anti-depressants at 5 months pregnant and admittedly took the doctor's advice for a couple of weeks, but started to not feel right about it and stopped taking them. I'm no doctor but just had a weird feeling that it wasn't right to take them while pregnant, even though my OB prescribed them. Now I feel confirmed that I did the right thing.

 

[Missizzy]

stephanie--There's a lot I haven't personally experienced and yet I know it exists. I happen to hear voices but only during grand mal seizures (and thank goodness, they are pleasant). I have a medical illness rather than a mental illness. I've surely never heard them at other times but I know they exist for others. I've lived with three children who heard voices. No, they weren't making it up, either. One would actually speak to her voices off and on all night. Voices can be many things. It can be self-talk. It can be a juvenile way to describe your conscience guiding you or it can be audible voices. Children (and certainly adults too) can be absolutely incredulous that you don't hear the voices. The children we've had who've heard voices have been extremely developmentally disabled and therefore don't have the "creativity" to make them up. Sometimes, as that article states, kids grow out of it and/or are not bothered by them. Sometimes, it moves into full-blown schizophrenia.

Do any google search on teen onset schizophrenia and you'll see that this boy, and Andrew Conley, had several markers/red flags. Mental illness is similar to many illnesses in that there's usually a stressor such as a death or extreme trauma preceding the onset. Note that this boy was a good friend of a boy who just died. Often times, kids have struggled privately for weeks and months trying to "hide" an illness.

Three of our birth children have bipolar disorder. Each had the onset at 28--one after the diagnosis of MS, one after a bad car accident and serious head injury, and one after the death of a newborn daughter. All huge stressors. Here's some links about teen onset of mental illness:

http://www.focusas.com/BipolarDisorder.html

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Se...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=10430

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Se...aggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=23037

"A stressful environment or negative life events may interact with an underlying genetic or biological vulnerability to produce the disorder."

Remember please, though, that I am not so quick to diagnosis this teen with the onset of mental illness. I also said that it's entirely possible that he acted on an impulse with no thought of the consequences as is now a proven fact that teens do not fully appreciate the consequences of their actions. Their brains (especially the frontal lobe) is not yet fully developed. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that Dakotah was not wanting to go home and see his beloved Papa as he's sorry about what he did. It's a devastating dilemma.

And kbl, the brain is like most organs. It can grow and change and parts can heal itself. My point is that if a child is born with a damaged frontal lobe, try as he might, he's got an uphill battle. Our daughter really tries to hear but she's deaf. She really tries to walk without a limp but she's got cerebral palsy. She really wants to function higher but she's got a 50 IQ. A damaged or poorly developed frontal lobe is the same thing. Spend some time in some special ed classes and you'll see. I think many kids and adults do try to do better...do want to do better but they just can't.

 

[kbl8201]

mz iz its better to try then to just use it as an excuse.

 

[kbl8201]

and, for the record, i was in special ed from first grade to about 11th. 1st grade full year and after that i had special ed classes to go with my regular classes.

have no idea why i felt the need to share that.