MI MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

[Richard]

There were some police errors made in their investigation and subsequent surveillance of Collins. Before search warrants were obtained, two rookie cops were assigned to take over surveillance of the rooming house where Collins lived. They made the mistake of knocking on the door and thereby alerting Collins, Davis, and Manuel that they were being watched. As a result, Collins allegedly disposed of a box of "souvenirs", cleaned a knife, and had the opportunity to get rid of other possible evidence.

Of significant interest is whether or not Collins worked alone or had assistance in the murders. His two closest associates - Arnold Davis and Andrew Manuel - were basically given a free ride in exchange for their promises to testify against Collins. Manuel played dumb at the trial, and Davis only gave limited information.

 

[Richard]

The prosecution's case against Collins was pretty well presented. Well enough to get him convicted of first degree murder of Karen Sue Beineman, and a sentence of life in prison. And that conviction was upheld by several legal appeal challenges.

As far as Collins not being identified through Michigan Motor Vehicle records, that is true. The Oldsmobile that he drove was registered to his mother. He owned two street type motorcycles which he had put together from various stolen parts. The day that an Eastern Michigan University police officer first stopped by Collins' rooming house to informally interview him, he was working on one of his motorcycles. While they were talking, his room mate, Arnold Davis arrived to hand Collins a newly arrived license plate and registration for the bike.

None of the witness statements regarding either automobiles or motorcycles mentioned in what state they were registered. If police attempted to locate the owners of all Honda motorcycles registered in the Ypsilanti area, they would not have found Collins, since his motorcycles were Triumphs. As it was, Collins was not traced or located due to any motor vehicle registration records.

To consider that the Zodiac killer was also the Michigan Coed killer, note that the first two Michigan killings occurred before the first (December 1968) Zodiac attack. Then four more Michigan Coed murders and a connected California murder occur before Zodiac's second attack (4 July 1969). And the Beineman murder occurred 19 days later in Michigan.

The distance, difference in settings, manner of killing, crime scene specifics, victim choices, weapons - all are totally different between Zodiac and the Michigan Coed Killer.

Zodiac attacked 7 people (three couples and a single cab driver) and killed five of them, while two survived. All of Zodiac's victims were left in place where he attacked them. All were fully clothed and there was no sexual connection to his attacks.

The Michigan Coed Killer abducted lone women and girls, attacked them sexually, and killed them all. He made it a point to undress his victims, mutilate their bodies, move them to remote locations, and even revisit the bodies.

Zodiac was quick to claim responsibility for his killings - and eventually he tried to take credit for killings committed by others. He even kept a running total of "his" murders in correspondence - but not a single mention of the Michigan Coed cases.

 

[Winward1]

"Zodiac was quick to claim responsibility for his killings..."

You must be losing it in your old age. He waited more than six months to claim responsibility for Lake Herman Road.

"Of significant interest is whether or not Collins worked alone or had assistance in the murders."

Yes, the murders, plural, for which they didn't try him as they had no evidence. This post is laughable because, 50 years later, pretty much everyone reading this site knows Collins doesn't have the background of a serial killer.

"...attacked them sexually..."

You couldn't be more obtuse with this description. Schell is the only one who sounds as if she was sexually assaulted as most people understand the term. As she got into a car with three men, presumably this means two of them sexually assaulted her before Thoresen, who altered clothing to imply a sexual motive but did not sexually assault victims, murdered her.

 

[Winward1]

It's obvious that he didn't emerge as Zodiac after the Lake Herman Road attack because he went to Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin, where he murdered Morrison and Means, Casberg and assorted Coed Killer victims.

The documents and MO and phone call in the Morrison Means case are proof. This also explains the Sheila Collins murder, who Coed Killer sleuths have long been stumped by.

You're making this easy, Richard. Once he almost got pinched after Beineman he knew the midwest had become too hot and retreated to CA where he had time to start the letters.

"The Michigan Coed Killer abducted lone women and girls, attacked them sexually, and killed them all."

Like Zodiac's victims, the Michigan victims were stabbed and shot and the motive was to terrorize area residents via random killings. Zodiac/Thoresen also killed an individual and is suspected of killing other individuals. He killed the cabbie and sniped victims in San Diego and killed Domingos and Edwards 58 years ago (tomorrow.)

It's going to take awhile because Thoresen has been a well kept secret but I know people are beginning to see that he was killing men, women and children, alone and in groups, since the mid fifties and this obviously has been known and covered up by the powers that be, likely since the day he was killed.

But it wasn't very well done. I've called out the propaganda elsewhere and people can see it. Prior to any of this they suspected B.S. regarding DNA evidence and Zodiac.

H.H. Holmes, who lived a 15 minute walk from Thoresen's future home, proved that, every once in awhile, maybe even less than once a generation, a killer emerges who is all over the map when it comes to MO. But that's not important. What's important is motive and the ability to travel. Homes and Thoresen had a lot more money than most killers.

 

[Richard]

Again with the personal attacks. Your scenarios make no sense whatever in comparing Zodiac or Thoresen to the Michigan Coed murders.

Are you suggesting that Joan Schell was picked up by three men, two of whom sexually assaulted her and then Thoresen stepped in for the kill and only staged her body so it would "look like" she was sexually attacked? All of the Michigan Coed victims' bodies were moved and dumped in a similar manner.

Without going into explicit and gruesome details, ALL bodies were mutilated and violated in a manner which would qualify as sexually motivated attacks.

DNA has connected Collins to two of the murders (Alice Kalom and Karen Sue Beineman). Collins (in 2013) subsequently changed his story about never knowing either girl to the convoluted tale (posted earlier) about how he did know them, gave each a motorcycle ride - but didn't kill them.

Since Arnold Davis stated to police that he and Collins were together with a third man (the owner/driver of a red and black car) and that they picked up a young woman the same night and location that Joan Schell was last seen entering such a car, it is a safe bet that one or possibly all three were involved in her murder. Davis stated that the three drove with the girl to the rooming house where he and Collins lived, and that the driver departed alone, he (Davis) went to his room, and Collins left with the girl in his own car. When Joan Schell's body was found a few days later, Collins warned Davis not to mention the "coincidence" to anyone.

In your arguments you state that Collins "doesn't have the background of a serial killer". This was, of course, true up to the time that he was suspected and arrested for the murder of Karen Sue Beineman. Before that, police did not have any solid suspects for any of the killings. It would probably be true of almost all other serial killers. Look at any of the cases and it would appear that the person ultimately identified as a serial killer had no indications or convictions as such prior to their final crime in which they were caught.

Collins, himself, has complained about being labeled a "serial killer", since he was only convicted of one murder. But it is obvious to most who have studied these murders that he was responsible or directly involved with other very similar murders.

Using the same criteria in regard to Thoresen, how many murders was he ever convicted of?

 

[Richard]

Collins has been in prison for over 50 years now. Here is a link to a list of the longest serving inmates...

LINK:

List of longest prison sentences served - Wikipedia

 

[Winward1]

"Are you suggesting that Joan Schell was picked up by three men, two of whom sexually assaulted her and then Thoresen stepped in for the kill and only staged her body so it would "look like" she was sexually attacked?"

No. Once again, you seem to be bending yourself into a pretzel to portray something I said to imply something else.

You stated that Zodiac soon took credit for his crimes. I pointed out that he took six months to take credit for the first one (as he was busy Ann-Arbor, Ypsilanti and Illinois during that time.) As usual, you ignored this.

"Without going into explicit and gruesome details, ALL bodies were mutilated and violated in a manner which would qualify as sexually motivated attacks."

Sexually motivated sounds like a meaningless, B.S. term, you know like profiler (another meaningless, B.S. term probably cooked up by the FBI to use in order to spread propaganda on cheesy US television shows. I've pointed out some great examples of this over in the Zodiac forum.)

I can go down a whole list of crimes of which facts, witness statements and evidence point to Thoresen as having committed. Victims had clothing cut away, moved and removed but they weren't sexually assaulted.

You can argue such crimes were sexually motivated. But I think most people could see the motive was to kill and inflict pain, period.

 

[Winward1]

" Collins (in 2013) subsequently changed his story about never knowing either girl to the convoluted tale (posted earlier) about how he did know them, gave each a motorcycle ride - but didn't kill them."

Huh. Forty three years later? Collins changed his story?

That's funny. Forty three years later is just about the time I started investigating the Percy murder.

One of my sources for that case later became a Chicago Police homicide commander. He was a storied cop and I was lucky to get to know him. He told me a few things about that case—forty three years later.

However, I found documented evidence (in the form of police reports) that some of the things he told me, forty three years later, were not true. Did he seek to misinform me? I don't think so. I just think it was because forty three years had passed and memory can fail people in more than four decades.

it's the same with Collins saying something which may not have been accurate, forty three years later.

You seem to give this great weight, however, another indication (in a seriously weak case against him) that he is guilty. One way to know it was a seriously weak case is because you have to argue that he said something incriminating forty three years later.

 

[Richard]

Nothing Collins has ever said has been very accurate.

As "weak" as the case evidence may have been, Collins was found guilty in a jury trial and sentenced to life in prison. Nothing I have said makes him any more or less guilty. The court's finding of guilty was affirmed over the years during various legal appeals.

The point that I was making in my post is that after Collins was informed of new DNA testing which linked him to two of the Michigan Coed Murders (Kalom and Beineman), HE changed his forty three year long story about NOT knowing the women at all. He then came up with a completely different alternate story about how he DID have contact with them and had given each a motorcycle ride on the last day of their lives. This was an attempt to explain how his DNA could have gotten on the victims. In his new story, he placed the blame for their murders directly on his old buddy Arnold Davis.

This is slightly more than a slip of memory.

 

[Winward1]

I'm here to be the disrupter. I don't mean to personally attack anyone and apologize where I have come off that way.

I've put Thoresen out there as Zodiac and nobody's giving me an argument that he wasn't, which appears to be unprecedented. There are also solid reasons to suspect him for a slew of murders in the Midwest, which no one would be surprised to find were committed by Zodiac (he had been suspected in the Robison family murders already.)

The fact that his basic features were identical to Collins, he had a Honda like the witness originally identified the suspect as riding (before inexplicably changing her story), at least one defense witness who appears to have had an alibi for Collins complained police harassed him, not to mention Zodiac would explain Mixer and Casberg being Coed Killer victims as much evidence indicates they were, Thoresen lived in Northern CA (an explanation for the Phillips murder), and MI authorities not being able to locate a suspect in the state who owned vehicles seen by witnesses...this is all slightly more than coincidence considering Collins had not one arrest for a violent crime, let alone murder or a string of them.

Another thing to keep in mind is, as a writer, I'm saving stuff for my next book. I haven't put everything I've got out there. I've said what I've said about Collins because he's in prison. But I have saved some cards yet to play.

Given the fishiness that went on during Collins investigation and trial, and indications of a coverup around numerous cases, solved and unsolved, for which witness statements, evidence and facts point to Thoresen, I really do not believe anything said about DNA in Collins' case.

They have been bull#@&$ ting about DNA in the Zodiac case. They have not tested the letter from the killer in the Morrison Means case and they made BS excuses why they couldn't test DNA in the Starved Rock case (another one where they put an unlikely suspect away for the majority of his natural life, one who has always claimed innocence.)

On a Coed Killer case note, in one of the books I was reading about the motorcycle and how one of the witnesses talked about all the chrome on it. If one looks at a Honda CL350, as Thoresen owned, and compares it to Collins' Triumph, one could make a solid argument the exhaust system on the CL makes the Honda more chrome-laden than Collins' motorcycle.

This is just another reason why I suspect Thoresen for these murders over Collins, who I don't think should be set free but definitely should have a hearing.

 

[Richard]

My post and question to you regarding your thoughts on the Schell murder were based on your statement:

(Quote) "Schell is the only one who sounds as if she was sexually assaulted as most people understand the term. As she got into a car with three men, presumably this means two of them sexually assaulted her before Thoresen, who altered clothing to imply a sexual motive but did not sexually assault victims, murdered her." (Unquote)

I simply restated your post as a question: "Are you suggesting that Joan Schell was picked up by three men, two of whom sexually assaulted her and then Thoresen stepped in for the kill and only staged her body so it would "look like" she was sexually attacked?"

I wasn't trying to twist your words or meaning, and still think that it is a legitimate question.

Collins was not convicted of Joan Schell's murder, although he was/is suspected of it - and perhaps a murder charge COULD have been been presented back at the time of his trial, but the evidence would have been circumstantial.

Joan Schell was seen entering a red and black car with three men in it by an eyewitness. Both Collins and Davis (according to Davis) were in such a car at the time and place picking up a girl. The car's owner/driver was the third man whom neither Collins nor Davis could (would) identify. That third man could have been Davis' brother, could have been Andrew Manuel, or could have been almost anyone else - including your suspect Thoresen.

A custodian in the nearby Student Union had chased the three men from the building and saw them enter such a car shortly before the men picked up Joan Schell. His statement to police would be of interest, as he might possibly have described or even identified one or all of them.

"This is just another reason why I suspect Thoresen for these murders over Collins, who I don't think should be set free but definitely should have a hearing."

Any hearing - other than a parole type hearing - which Collins might be given would have to specifically address the charge of first degree murder of Karen Sue Beineman, and NOT any of the other murders. Because hers is the only murder he was charged with and convicted of.

Hypothetically speaking - IF such a hearing were to be given/allowed, a number of very specific legal points would have to be addressed. These would have to be statements from the eyewitnesses who had testified at the 1970 trial, any new DNA evidence, testimony from anyone who might have heard Collins admit to, or comment upon (verbally or in writing) Karen's murder, any exculpatory evidence from police files which might indicate another killer, and testimony from Collins, himself. Arnold Davis would have to be interviewed as well to counter any of Collins' previous accusations.

If the DNA evidence tested in 2013 actually does implicate Collins in the murder of Alice Kalom, he should be tried for her murder. If the evidence is insufficient, authorities should so state.

 

[Winward1]

I can see how you misread what I wrote. It was not written clearly. I did not mean to state Thoresen altered Shell's clothing. What I meant is, after committing numerous other murders (various members of the Robison and Sims families, Mixer, Linda Edwards, etc.) he altered victim's clothing.

You raise an interesting point, if they have DNA to convict him in the other murders why haven't they? The answer is, because they don't want to give the guy another day in court. His lawyers would massacre his conviction for Beineman.

 

[Winward1]

By the way, I don't know what's more unbelievable, that a serial killer (and guy who was as smart as Collins) who had been aggressively, and successfully, killing in a small town where he lived would drive his victim into town in broad daylight for all to see when he planned to kill her, or the story about the State Trooper's wife giving their kid a haircut and hairs from it getting co-mingled with evidence from the Beineman murder. Even without a witness changing a key part of her story and cops harassing defense witnesses, both arguments by the prosecution I consider a joke.

 

[Richard]

The State Trooper's wife was John Collins' aunt (his mother's sister). She, her husband, and their young sons went out of town on vacation in July 1969 and they asked John Collins to feed their dog while they were away. He had a key to their house, and had access to it day and night.

During the time of their absence, Karen Sue Beineman was murdered and her body found in a ravine.

When the family returned from their vacation, they noticed some items in the basement out of place and missing. It was determined that the basement had been cleaned and that paint had been sprayed on the floor in places. An odd thing for someone to have done. The only person with access to the house was Collins.

The husband, being a trained investigator, became suspicious and it was through that, and also through the suspicions that other police investigators had regarding Collins that got things rolling against him, and eventually identified that basement as a crime scene.

The hairs you mention were not intermingled with evidence. They WERE the evidence which linked Karen Sue Beineman's body to the basement, and they were found inside her body. At the trial, prosecution expert witnesses testified to the match between those hairs and hairs clipped from the family members. It was stated that the mother had given the family haircuts in the basement, and the conclusion presented was that the hairs were on the floor, along with Karen's body and underwear, which is how they ended up with the body.

Whether Collins intended to kill Karen when he first picked her up on his motorcycle or decided later on is not known. It was the belief of investigators and prosecutors that he picked her up in Ypsilanti around noon, and rode with her to his relatives' house where he killed her. He then rode to a motorcycle shop, to a hamburger restaurant, and then to his boarding house, returning later that evening to retrieve her body and dump it in the ravine.

 

[Richard]

52 years ago....


Alice Elizabeth Kalom

On 9 June 1969, the body of Alice Kalom was found just north of Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor near the intersection of US 23 and Territorial Road. Here is a news paper story from that time.
------------------------------------------------------------
From The Ann Arbor News
Wednesday, 11 June 1969
Alice Kalom Was 'Serious, Likable'
By Phil Maxwell

There is an old house at 311 Thompson nestled between the blank brick parking structure and a modernd apartment building. It wears a new coat of glossy brown paint, and flower boxes deck the Victorian balustrade of its front porch. A big elm tree throws dappled shadows across its face. Until a few days ago it was the home of Alice Elizabeth Kalom.

Mr. and Mrs. Edward Fronczak live in a first floor apartment, next door to the one Miss Kalom occupied but they didn't know her well, only by brief encounters in the hall.

Mrs. Fronczak remembers Miss Kalom as a friendly, wholesome girl with a vivid imagination.

Mr. said that friends who gathered on weekends in the neighboring apartment were always quiet, and well-behaved.

Mrs. Fronczak saw her last on Friday night (6 June 1969) with a girl friend in the house.

Donald Rolston, the manager's son, said Miss Kalom was a quiet girl who was interested in photography. The only thing near to a complaint he could remember was that she used quite a bit of water when developing pictures for her film class.

The house at 311 Thompson appears as calm and tranquil as ever from the outside, but on the inside it's empty, far emptier than before.

Miss Kalom's father, Joseph, spoke of his daughter as "a nice girl."

Other people who knew her remember her as just that. One woman who Miss Kalom once baby-sat for in her home town of Portage said she was a quiet, studious book reader who didn't seem to date much.

"She was quite a real likable person," Mrs. William Dobbs added.

Another woman, a former high school teacher of Miss Kalom's, said she exercised "very quiet leadership," she
was a "very conscientious student, a very serious one."

Miss Kalom, who just turned 21 on Christmas Day, was graduated in May with a degree in fine arts with a "B" average, University officials said. She had stayed on to take more courses during summer session.

Her Portage High School Principal, James Pellowe, described her as "warm and friendly but at times reserved."

Other teachers ranked her as "excellent."

Last Seen On Front Porch

Alice E. Kalom, the sixth murder victim in the Ann Arbor-Ypsilanti area, was last seen alive about 1 a.m. Friday on the front porch of this rooming house at 311 Thompson St. Her purse and all identification were found in her apartment after the murder.

Related story on Page 1. (Ann Arbor News Photo By Cecil Lockard)

LINK:
Alice Kalom Was 'Serious, Likable' | Ann Arbor District Library

 

[Winward1]

This trial was an utter crock. That crap about the hairs is laughable. The "science," and I'm using the term loosely "neutron activation analysis" is a joke.

Meanwhile, the evidence came from a cop's basement in a case where cops were harassing defense witnesses.

That said, here's testimony from Mrs. Goshe, the prosecution's star witness, who first said the motorcycle was a Honda but then, inexplicably, changed it to Triumph.

“Mrs. Goshe, you told the court that Miss Beineman came into your shop between noon and 12:30 p.m. Did you not?”


“Yes.”

“But didn’t you first tell police it was at 12:15 p.m.?

“I’m not certain.”

“Not to worry. It’s written down right here on the police statement you made and signed,” (defense attorney shows her a clipboard with the police report attached.)

“Then during the pretrial hearing, you testified under oath that Miss Beineman arrived at your store between 12:30 and one. So when was it? twelve, twelve fifteen, twelve thirty, one p.m.”

“I don’t have a definite time period when Miss Beineman arrived. It was sometime after noon and before one p.m.”

This woman could not tell the truth if her life depended on it.

Now, if you want to think the mere fact that Collins was convicted still carries weight in the trial of a guy who had no priors, is called a serial killer though he was convicted of but one killing (which implies that somehow, despite being 21 he was able to pull off five or six perfect crimes), and though he was one of the smartest of his peers, after pulling off numerous perfect crimes he decided to parade around with his last victim in broad daylight on a motorcycle in the small town where he lived, it's a free country. You have the freedom to continue making weak, implausible arguments.

I say it’s unbelievable.

Also, I have presented a guy who no doubt murdered numerous people, has all kinds of fishiness surrounding him that implies there was a coverup of what he did, hailed from the midwest and who bore a striking physical resemblance to Collins.

Not only that, he seems to be the answer to numerous gnawing questions about the case... the murders of Sheila Collins and Stephanie Casberg, the murder of Roxie Phillips, and the cops in Michigan being unable to link any of the vehicles seen by witnesses to a resident of the state.

It's just amazing how Thoresen fits all of these things so well. And how Mrs. Wig Shop changed he story regarding numerous things by the time the trial rolled around.

The State Trooper's wife was John Collins' aunt (his mother's sister). She, her husband, and their young sons went out of town on vacation in July 1969 and they asked John Collins to feed their dog while they were away. He had a key to their house, and had access to it day and night.

During the time of their absence, Karen Sue Beineman was murdered and her body found in a ravine.

When the family returned from their vacation, they noticed some items in the basement out of place and missing. It was determined that the basement had been cleaned and that paint had been sprayed on the floor in places. An odd thing for someone to have done. The only person with access to the house was Collins.

The husband, being a trained investigator, became suspicious and it was through that, and also through the suspicions that other police investigators had regarding Collins that got things rolling against him, and eventually identified that basement as a crime scene.

The hairs you mention were not intermingled with evidence. They WERE the evidence which linked Karen Sue Beineman's body to the basement, and they were found inside her body. At the trial, prosecution expert witnesses testified to the match between those hairs and hairs clipped from the family members. It was stated that the mother had given the family haircuts in the basement, and the conclusion presented was that the hairs were on the floor, along with Karen's body and underwear, which is how they ended up with the body.

I'm just saying, Richard, I think your posts are damaging your reputation, not mine. There's an old saying that goes something like this: quit while you're ahead.

Whether Collins intended to kill Karen when he first picked her up on his motorcycle or decided later on is not known. It was the belief of investigators and prosecutors that he picked her up in Ypsilanti around noon, and rode with her to his relatives' house where he killed her. He then rode to a motorcycle shop, to a hamburger restaurant, and then to his boarding house, returning later that evening to retrieve her body and dump it in the ravine.

 

[Richard]

Last time I checked, 12:15 was a time "between noon and 12:30 pm". I don't see how that constitutes a lie, and I don't see how it had any critical relevance to the case. If it was indeed critical, the defense would have objected to the testimony, and it would have been included in their appeals. It is, rather, just an example of the defense harassing a witness in an attempt to rattle her on the stand in an attempt to introduce an element of doubt into the prosecution's presentation.

Mrs. Goshe and Mrs. Spaulding both identified Karen Sue Beineman as having entered their Wig Shop that day at about that time, and both IDENTFIED John Norman Collins as being the guy on the motorcycle that drove off with Karen Sue Beineman. That testimony was critical in connecting the victim and the perpetrator within an hour or two of the murder.

That Collins is guilty of Karen's murder is not just an opinion, it is a legal finding of over 50 years standing - and it has been reaffirmed in two subsequent appellate decisions.

A grand jury in California indicted Collins for the murder of Roxie Ann Phillips. Had he been extradited to California to stand trial, he would undoubtedly been convicted of her murder as well.

Including John Norman Collins in the category of Serial Killer was based on the opinion that he did kill more than one victim, although he was only convicted of one murder. Thorensen, might be thought of as a serial killer based on opinions as well, but he was not convicted of a murder. It is all in how one defines "serial killer" - and it was a term not in general use in 1969.

Regarding Michigan police connecting Collins to a specific vehicle related to a murder: They did just exactly that when they found, in Collins' car, a piece of printed flower cloth which matched (came from) the outfit that Roxie Ann Phillips was wearing the day she was murdered. California investigators determined that she had been stabbed with a knife and strangled with the cloth belt from her flowered summer outfit. Certain details of her murder were very similar to the Michigan Coed Murders. Additionally, traces of blood found in Collins' Oldsmobile Cutlass were of her same type. This car, which was registered in his mother's name, was driven by Collins and his friend Andrew Manuel to California and back in July 1969.

Certainly, there are questions that come to mind regarding Collins:
- Did he act alone or did he have accomplices? if so, who were they?
- Did he kill others in Michigan and elsewhere?
- What are the results of DNA testing done on evidence?

Eyewitnesses who saw and described the (then) unidentified suspect in the Schell, Phillips, and Beineman murders all stated that he was young "18 to 20 years old" or in his early 20's. Collins was 22 when he was arrested on 31 July 1969. I believe that Thorensen was about 33 at that time.

If you truly believe that Collins was an innocent lamb, you might want to interview him. He lives in Marquette, Michigan.

 

[Winward1]

The consensus from the start has been that the suspect who was seen running through the rain at 12:15 a.m. from the remote area where Beineman's body was dumped (which had not been publicized/her killing was still secret) and which no less than nine cops staked out because they expected he would return to the scene of the crime was not a jogger who was out running in the middle of a dreary, bug filled night for health's sake.

It was the Michigan Coed Killer.

Two of the cops who chased him reported that he ran around a corner at which time they heard an engine start and a vehicle drive away.

On the other hand, Collins, who was hardly a likely suspect (pointing this out is not tantamount to calling him an innocent lamb but you maintaining it is reveals you have a lack of confidence in your argument and are thus overplaying a weak hand) had alibi for where he was that evening, one airtight to the point that the prosecution didn't ask one of the witnesses who provided it a single question.

This stands out as much as Mrs. Wig Shop changing her story about the motorcycle, from the one I have provided documented evidence that William Thoresen owned.

Meanwhile, Kaufman, one of the employees of the motorcycle shop who had already given the police numerous interviews about Collins' visit to the shop the afternoon in question, testified that an Ann Arbor Sargent visited him at a bar he frequented and asked him to get into a police vehicle (which was clearly done to intimidate a defense witness) wherein Kaufman said he said that he was threatened with perjury by said Sergeant.

This is not just inexplicably bizarre, it revels that the prosecution had a lack of confidence in their case, which is understandable because it was a crock, a truly ridiculous tale. Yet it is understandable given the pressure prosecutors and police were under at the time (the higher ups had to be truly in fear for their jobs), and the FBI, as usual, would share nothing whatsoever with local authorities.

Stack these on top of the pile of other reasons previously elaborated on here that make Collins prosecution look seriously sketchy, and Thoresen totally guilty.

The fact that Zodiac appeared five or so days after the escape though the rain to mail his first letters in SF, where Thoresen lived (plus Thoresen previously had escaped numerous murder scenes, Percy, the Beineman stakeout, etc.) is indicative of what I've been saying for weeks. This guy was operating on a whole other level. Collins, in light of the facts, is a joke. I don't have to interview him.

Thoresen, who just happened to share Collins' height, build, hair color and hairstyle, murdered scores of people, entire families. It's as obvious that it was covered up as he was the perpetrator. He escaped a variety of charges because he was bribing and buying his way through the court system. But when he was outrunning cops through the darkest, wettest Michigan nights it's clear it's because they, even at nine guys strong, were in no way up to the task of catching him, which is what people have been saying about Zodiac for five decades.

Your inability to grasp this does not surprise me. It's an unbelievable story. But like Thoresen in front of those cops that night, I am far ahead of you on this. The facts back it up.

 

[Richard]

The consensus from the start has been that the suspect who was seen running through the rain at 12:15 a.m. from the remote area where Beineman's body was dumped (which had not been publicized/her killing was still secret) and which no less than nine cops staked out because they expected he would return to the scene of the crime was not a jogger who was out running in the middle of a dreary, bug filled night for health's sake.

It was the Michigan Coed Killer.

Two of the cops who chased him reported that he ran around a corner at which time they heard an engine start and a vehicle drive away.

On the other hand, Collins, who was hardly a likely suspect (pointing this out is not tantamount to calling him an innocent lamb but you maintaining it is reveals you have a lack of confidence in your argument and are thus overplaying a weak hand) had alibi for where he was that evening, one airtight to the point that the prosecution didn't ask one of the witnesses who provided it a single question.

This stands out as much as Mrs. Wig Shop changing her story about the motorcycle, from the one I have provided documented evidence that William Thoresen owned.

Meanwhile, Kaufman, one of the employees of the motorcycle shop who had already given the police numerous interviews about Collins' visit to the shop the afternoon in question, testified that an Ann Arbor Sargent visited him at a bar he frequented and asked him to get into a police vehicle (which was clearly done to intimidate a defense witness) wherein Kaufman said he said that he was threatened with perjury by said Sergeant.

This is not just inexplicably bizarre, it revels that the prosecution had a lack of confidence in their case, which is understandable because it was a crock, a truly ridiculous tale. Yet it is understandable given the pressure prosecutors and police were under at the time (the higher ups had to be truly in fear for their jobs), and the FBI, as usual, would share nothing whatsoever with local authorities.

Stack these on top of the pile of other reasons previously elaborated on here that make Collins prosecution look seriously sketchy, and Thoresen totally guilty.

The fact that Zodiac appeared five or so days after the escape though the rain to mail his first letters in SF, where Thoresen lived (plus Thoresen previously had escaped numerous murder scenes, Percy, the Beineman stakeout, etc.) is indicative of what I've been saying for weeks. This guy was operating on a whole other level. Collins, in light of the facts, is a joke. I don't have to interview him.

Thoresen, who just happened to share Collins' height, build, hair color and hairstyle, murdered scores of people, entire families. It's as obvious that it was covered up as he was the perpetrator. He escaped a variety of charges because he was bribing and buying his way through the court system. But when he was outrunning cops through the darkest, wettest Michigan nights it's clear it's because they, even at nine guys strong, were in no way up to the task of catching him, which is what people have been saying about Zodiac for five decades.

Your inability to grasp this does not surprise me. It's an unbelievable story. But like Thoresen in front of those cops that night, I am far ahead of you on this. The facts back it up.

You misrepresent the stated facts of the Beineman scene stake out. There was a stake out the evening of 26-27 July 1969, consisting of nine law enforcement officers. Only four of them reported seeing a running man who passed near the area where Karen's body had been dumped, and where a manikin had been placed as a decoy. NONE of those officers broke cover to pursue the man and NONE of them reported him as having entered a motor vehicle.

The running man did not stop or pause at the scene, and was only there for a second in passing by - according to police reports and testimony. Police did not shout any challenges to the man or pursue him on foot. A posted patrol car unit was called to the scene, but arrived too late to find him.

A tracking dog was brought to the scene and he tracked the runner to a nearby party which was taking place in a house. Not wanting to arouse suspicion of the party goers, police resumed their surveillance of the scene, which continued well into the next afternoon.

The stakeout was largely unsuccessful, but testimony of the four officers who had seen the running man was introduced into Collins' trial by his own defense attorneys as a diversion from other evidence. If the running man had been apprehended and identified at the scene, it might have led to further investigative efforts, but as far as evidence for a trial, it would have been only circumstantial and would have relied on other evidence to be considered of importance.

In a trial like this one, it is improper and illegal for the prosecution to introduce any testimony or evidence about other crimes not charged, or any previous convictions of the defendant. However, in this instance, it was mentioned in the trial by one of the stake-out team members, that police had hoped to catch the killer because their investigations had indicated that he had returned to the scene of at least two previous murder sites. This would normally have been stricken from the record and jurors instructed to ignore the remark, but it was allowed, because the remark was made in direct response to a defense question: "What was the reasoning behind the stakeout?"

What is of some importance and consideration is that John Norman Collins, in his 2013 letter to his cousin, cites the story of the running man and claims that this person was his room mate and fraternity brother Arnold Davis. Collins stated that Davis was the "real killer" of both Karen Sue Beineman and Alice Kalom, and that he (Davis) had confessed to him about returning to the scene the night of the stakeout. In that letter, Collins admits to helping Davis remove Karen's body from his aunt's basement and dumping her in the ravine the evening of 23 July 1969.

 

[Winward1]

"By the time the other officers were alerted, the two drenched officers ran after the suspect. Then they heard a car start up around the bend of Riverside Drive and fade off on Huron River Drive. By the time a squad car was in pursuit, the phantom runner and car were gone."

- Gregory Fournier, Terror in Ypsilanti, page 107