MI MI - Macomb Co, 2 WhtFems, UP10563 & UP11130, body parts in sewer, Aug'12

[TobyWong*]

Just wondering... if the perp knew sewer clean up schedule & is dumping so that pieces are found? Especially if pieces are being held then perp would already know this size would/could get caught up at some point. I mean you could bury those parts all around in the ground. But perp decides to put more into same sewer system.

 

[dotr]

This somewhat heavyset (although fairly young) tattoed woman is missing .
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/carroll_ashley.html

 

[dotr]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/12/warren_residents_on_edge_week.html
"Christine says she and her neighbors are uneasy.

"My reaction is shock because this is a nice neighborhood," she said. "And my reaction is shock because I could never do that to anybody. I think its appalling."
Warren Councilwoman Kelly Colegio said she and many of her constituents share the Christine's sentiments.
"I think all of us are concerned and we hope this can be solved sooner than later so people can have a little sense of peace," Colegio said. "When it was north of the city peole were concerned" and now that body parts have been discovered in Warren it's grown.

There are just "so many variables of unknowns," she said"

 

[dotr]

Missing from N.J. tattooed, 180 pounds
https://www16.state.nj.us/NJSP_Ambe...3:2CHp?parameter=mp_detail&mp_id=1041&type=mp

Also missing and tattooed from NJ
https://www16.state.nj.us/NJSP_Amber/DispatchAction.do?parameter=mp_detail&mp_id=1494&type=mp

 

[tatertot]

Referring to the previous post, I cannot find any photos of DMN's tattoos, but CV's do not appear to match any of the UID's, plus at five feet seven and 130 to 140 pounds, she would be too thin to match the UID's "large build" description:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/v/vicentini_carla.html

and http://carlavicentini.blogspot.com/ (this image has a better image of her angel tattoo)

*****

This article raises some interesting points: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/12/metro_detroit_body_parts_found.html

Schabath didn't know if any of the crew members have been questioned by police, but said he knows at least one of the employees worked at both sites where remains were found.

The two pieces found December 20 were on a subterranean staging platform that is part of an "interceptor," which is drained before the work crews were needed:

over a matter of hours before the staging platforms emerge from the water, all the while water is passing through the system.

I'm not about to cast suspicion on the workers themselves, but since TobyWong* above suggested someone might know the sewer cleaning/maintenance schedule, it would be worth it to know the condition of the December 20 pieces. Did they show any evidence of being submerged in the sewage for long? At all? The map shows the discovery site to be in a populated area so it's doubtful someone could have slipped into the sewer to plant the pieces as the platform was draining, but maybe they were dropped into a storm drain nearby and got caught on the platform as the last of the water flowed over it?

 

[summer_breeze]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/12/metro_detroit_body_parts_found.html

By Gus Burns | [email protected]
on December 28, 2012 at 10:12 AM,
updated December 28, 2012 at 10:19 AM

<snipped>

"One of the theories we have is that this is from some medical lab or some mortuary and maybe they are doing this to save on disposal."

Sterling Heights Police Lt. Luke Riley called that scenario "highly unlikely," but didn't rule it out as a possibility.

 

[carbuff]

Referring to the previous post, I cannot find any photos of DMN's tattoos, but CV's do not appear to match any of the UID's, plus at five feet seven and 130 to 140 pounds, she would be too thin to match the UID's "large build" description:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/v/vicentini_carla.html

and http://carlavicentini.blogspot.com/ (this image has a better image of her angel tattoo)

*****

This article raises some interesting points: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/12/metro_detroit_body_parts_found.html



The two pieces found December 20 were on a subterranean staging platform that is part of an "interceptor," which is drained before the work crews were needed:



I'm not about to cast suspicion on the workers themselves, but since TobyWong* above suggested someone might know the sewer cleaning/maintenance schedule, it would be worth it to know the condition of the December 20 pieces. Did they show any evidence of being submerged in the sewage for long? At all? The map shows the discovery site to be in a populated area so it's doubtful someone could have slipped into the sewer to plant the pieces as the platform was draining, but maybe they were dropped into a storm drain nearby and got caught on the platform as the last of the water flowed over it?

Interesting questions -- but wouldn't that imply the person WANTED the pieces to be found? It would make more sense if they went to places where they knew maintenance wouldn't be done soon.

 

[deca]

Although I don't discount the mortuary or lab thing- if they were trying to save money there would be a lot more parts down there. Lab waste would probably be truckloads of parts per month. Mortuary I am not sure of but I would think they would get more than a couple of bodies a month to dispose of.

 

[tatertot]

Carbuff, I agree, that would imply the perp did want the remains to be found. This is all speculation, but maybe he didn't intend for the remains he disposed of in August to be found, but he liked the anonymous attention he earned from it and he made sure they'd be found this time. I don't know if the interceptor was drained at the site by someone who had to go down there and start the draining process or whether it was done remotely by computer, but if it was the former situation maybe that's what tipped him off that workers would soon be descending on the site.

This article states that the "upstream gates" were shut at 5:30 a.m. to reduce flow and expose the staging platform, and workers found the remains around 8 a.m. I don't know much about sewer system architecture, but if there were any other staging platforms between the upstream gates and the platform where the remains were found, were those checked for remains as well?

http://www.thenewsherald.com/articles/2012/12/22/news/doc50d62aeae6017314144753.txt

Yet why only put the remains in the sewers if he wants them found? Is he afraid of cameras anywhere else that might catch him on film, or has he left out remains elsewhere that were scavenged before humans laid eyes on them?

I really doubt a lab or mortuary is behind this. Think about it: if they did dispose of remains down the sewers and the discovery of those was made public in August, the operators would be sweating bullets, they wouldn't just keep disposing of them the same way. Those tattoo photos were on TV, they're still widely available on the Internet and they might yet be identified. If it was discovered that a business was illegally disposing of the bodies they were entrusted to respectfully cremate, their business would be done for. That's not the kind of offense they'd pay a fine for and resume business as usual afterwards. No matter how much they'd save on disposal costs, they'd be out of their minds to continue putting remains down the sewer when the media and LE are on to them.

While there might be a wait for DNA results, wouldn't the ME have been able to tell by now whether either set of remains had been frozen? I seem to recall in another UID discussion that frozen flesh would have obvious signs of damage like burst cell membranes.

 

[Donjeta]

Although I don't discount the mortuary or lab thing- if they were trying to save money there would be a lot more parts down there. Lab waste would probably be truckloads of parts per month. Mortuary I am not sure of but I would think they would get more than a couple of bodies a month to dispose of.

This comment sounds like the person thinks that there probably was a lot more body parts disposed there because they don't inspect everything and it would be amazing luck if they happened to find the only two specimens that were disposed there.

It's befuddling, says Schabath, the miniscule probability that two sets of body parts could be dropped into a sewer system with thousands of miles of always-flowing drains and be discovered by work crews at two separate locations that they inspect for only small increments of time, about six hours each time they work.

The water level is lowered in the interceptors before the crews descend. Schabath said that process is not instantaneous, but takes place over a matter of hours before the staging platforms emerge from the water, all the while water is passing through the system.

"It's 12-square-foot; it’s a pretty wide platform," said Schabath. "But still... there had to be a hell of a lot more parts."

But I don't know... if it's a lot of bodies, is it really easier to freeze them, hack them into bits and drain them than cremate or bury them? It sounds like an awful lot of trouble to me unless the person needs to be destroy the bodies without leaving a paper trail.

 

[dotr]

Wondering why the perp(s) would choose that method of disposal again when obviously the parts were found. Maybe the first time it was a test to see if "human remains" could be identified and satisfied that they were not- proceeded with disposal of the "rest", perhaps "testing" again from the other location.
Anyone been making unusual enquiries about the neighbourhood sewer system in days prior to gruesome discoveries?

 

[carbuff]

Scenario: guy offs wife. Cuts her up into pieces that will fit into the freezer and cleans up the mess. Periodically, so he doesn't create a spike in his water usage or anything like that, he takes a piece out and cuts it into pieces small enough to flush down the toilet. Depending on how far upstream he is, he might not even know a few pieces have been found (family members in the area hadn't heard about it).

 

[dotr]

Scenario: guy offs wife. Cuts her up into pieces that will fit into the freezer and cleans up the mess. Periodically, so he doesn't create a spike in his water usage or anything like that, he takes a piece out and cuts it into pieces small enough to flush down the toilet. Depending on how far upstream he is, he might not even know a few pieces have been found (family members in the area hadn't heard about it).

The family may not know the victim is missing and the perp may not know the pieces were found- if for example they don't speak/read the English language newspapers.
Could there be a food establishment that is near both areas that share a common employee who works with frozen goods?

 

[deca]

Scenario: guy offs wife. Cuts her up into pieces that will fit into the freezer and cleans up the mess. Periodically, so he doesn't create a spike in his water usage or anything like that, he takes a piece out and cuts it into pieces small enough to flush down the toilet. Depending on how far upstream he is, he might not even know a few pieces have been found (family members in the area hadn't heard about it).

Do you think a 4 by 4 in piece can go down normal household fixtures? I was kind of assuming that it was put down a storm drain or something like that- but I am plumbing ignorant.
Feels weird to be discussing this.

 

[carbuff]

Do you think a 4 by 4 in piece can go down normal household fixtures? I was kind of assuming that it was put down a storm drain or something like that- but I am plumbing ignorant.
Feels weird to be discussing this.

You know, that's a good question. I assumed they were, but now that I think about it, that is quite a large chunk.

I don't think I want to experiment to figure out the answer to that...

 

[Angie4b1g]

If I had to guess, I would think there is a whole body out there somewhere that is missing these pieces. I suspect they were removed to slow down the identification process. Perhaps the body just hasn't been found yet.

 

[carbuff]

If I had to guess, I would think there is a whole body out there somewhere that is missing these pieces. I suspect they were removed to slow down the identification process. Perhaps the body just hasn't been found yet.

That would make sense.

 

[dotr]

If it is possible that victims can be forcibly tattooed- it is also possible they can be forcibly removed..From Nov. 2011.

http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico...bers/-/9153762/6118698/-/he4dvtz/-/index.html
""He kidnapped me, held me hostage and tattooed his name all over my body," said another victim. "I feel trapped in my own body, like I feel like it's not mine. I feel like I'm branded and he got what he wanted and he owns me."

Target 7 has been told that gang members have no bounds when it comes to tattoos. They'll tattoo victims' hands, arms, chests and even worse.

Dawn Maestas works with victims to help remove their attacker's work.

"These are not tattoos. This is a form of branding and mutilating a victim and it just so happened that they used a tattoo gun to achieve this process," Maestas said. "Can you imagine what that does to a woman to have somebody put his name across an area, and what that does for a woman to think she can ever have another relationship again, and have somebody staring at that the whole time?"

The women who contacted Target 7 don't believe they're the only victims"


Read more: http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico.../6118698/-/he4dvtz/-/index.html#ixzz2GmBXCQzq

 

[phantompoet]

Maybe the body was eaten by the killer

 

[dotr]

Someone had been asking earlier about starting a thread concerning uid's and tattoos, well just found out there is a one about that here on WS..
NEW Can you match these UID tattoos to tattoos of the missing? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community