GUILTY MI - Paul DeWolf, 25, fatally shot in Ann Arbor frat house, 23 July 2013

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Would Zhao's role in the anatomy department allow him to know if any part of a human body was being illegally harvested or kept or sold (I'm just brainstorming) or anything he'd notice that's off (but not involved in) where he may have questioned it? In other words, would there be a possibility for someone to make money illegally via having access to the dead bodies? Stem cells, something like that?

These "brainstorming" ideas are definitely worth looking in to...

I imagine if any controversial/illegal activities were taking place in the anatomy department... And a non-consenting colleague was aware of the practices...

that colleague may have been in grave danger...

JMO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Medical school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In some countries he'd be considered done after he finished his fourth year! They must do some procedures by then.

General surgery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the description in the area of general surgery - it often includes the thyroid gland depending on if there are any head and neck specialists available. Interesting.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Good points....

It sounds like he could have been shot by someone who had knowledge of the main arteries of the body...

and knew how to use a fairly small powered gun to direct a shot directly to the vulnerable area...

JMO

That's what I'm thinking since I read the gunshot wound wasn't obvious until he was being autopsied. That's a strange yet specific detail of this case.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Good points....

It sounds like he could have been shot by someone who had knowledge of the main arteries of the body...

and knew how to use a fairly small powered gun to direct a shot directly to the vulnerable area...

JMO

That is what I theorized a long time ago and I think it still holds merit. If you think about a "tidier" method, shooting into the carotid is probably going to throw less DNA (skull bones, cartilege) back onto the shooter than shooting into the head. Think about it.

 

[danzn16]

Medical Students don't get to do crucial surgeries. The crucial procedures would be done by the attending physician, or by the medical resident. And those are the people who would likely be blamed if something would go wrong. If the motive were work related, I could imagine that he may have seen someone else make a crucial mistake, something for which the other person could use their license.

This is correct. I am a medical student and we can suture and close and work the laparoscopic camera and possibly do the last cuts to a biopsy removal etc. but we are always under supervision with the doctor doing all the work and everything we do is under their direct instructions. I couldn't see a patient being angry with the med student, they'd be angry with the doctor. Most patients don't even know or care that med students are in the room during surgery. Also rotations are only one month to 2 months long. Usually a patient that has a problem doesn't get angry or realize there are significant issues until after a longer time span and the med student would already be moved on to a different rotation.


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[danzn16]

Would Zhao's role in the anatomy department allow him to know if any part of a human body was being illegally harvested or kept or sold (I'm just brainstorming) or anything he'd notice that's off (but not involved in) where he may have questioned it? In other words, would there be a possibility for someone to make money illegally via having access to the dead bodies? Stem cells, something like that?

All the cadavers are soaked in formaldehyde and are therefore unusable for any reason that someone would buy an organ.


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[danzn16]

Medical school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In some countries he'd be considered done after he finished his fourth year! They must do some procedures by then.

General surgery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the description in the area of general surgery - it often includes the thyroid gland depending on if there are any head and neck specialists available. Interesting.

All med students in the US have their doctorate degree after the fourth year and are considered physicians. However you have to undergo years of training in residency to be able to perform surgery on anyone your self. And In residency you are still under direct supervision of the attending physician and under their guidance. Fourth years suture etc and do work hands on but absolutely don't perform even close to half of a surgery.


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[danzn16]

I think it's more likely whoever shot just missed wherever they were aiming but still happened to hit Paul. I don't know if any of you shoot but hitting an area so small as the carotid in the neck would take some major practice to hit since it would be a moving target and you would have a limited amount of time to shoot. I doubt Paul had someone that had enough intelligence to know extensive anatomy, and plan on shooting in the carotid and planned to make it not look like a gun shot, that is also a sharpshooter. I think it's more likely a miss to another part of the body that was targeted.


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[ATasteOfHoney]

I think it's more likely whoever shot just missed wherever they were aiming but still happened to hit Paul. I don't know if any of you shoot but hitting an area so small as the carotid in the neck would take some major practice to hit since it would be a moving target and you would have a limited amount of time to shoot. I doubt Paul had someone that had enough intelligence to know extensive anatomy, and plan on shooting in the carotid and planned to make it not look like a gun shot, that is also a sharpshooter. I think it's more likely a miss to another part of the body that was targeted.


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Perhaps, and yet.....we don't know how far away the shooter was from the head/neck region. Not yet, anyway.
Who knows???

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Agreed.....this sounds personal to me.....and I am not sure it is a female that did this. ykwim?

If true, that is an odd tidbit about his close friendship with someone even though he indicated he didn't affirm the person's total being (I didn't see that FB, I read it here.) I believe people can get along and like one another even when they have differing opinions and beliefs if they remain respectful. People don't have to share everything to be great friends. A friendship would break down if one decides he wants something the other is unwilling to give. Buy why would that happen if the other made himself clear from the beginning? (Unless one didn't or someone couldn't take no for an answer.)

 

[Woe.be.gone]

All the cadavers are soaked in formaldehyde and are therefore unusable for any reason that someone would buy an organ.


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Thanks, besides that, is there anything you can think of that may come into play along the process that leads to that? Could something be consistently missing? Anything like that?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

This is correct. I am a medical student and we can suture and close and work the laparoscopic camera and possibly do the last cuts to a biopsy removal etc. but we are always under supervision with the doctor doing all the work and everything we do is under their direct instructions. I couldn't see a patient being angry with the med student, they'd be angry with the doctor. Most patients don't even know or care that med students are in the room during surgery. Also rotations are only one month to 2 months long. Usually a patient that has a problem doesn't get angry or realize there are significant issues until after a longer time span and the med student would already be moved on to a different rotation.


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Do you have experience in the military system? Socialized medicine? The VA?
<modsnip> Liberties are taken in that other world, trust me.

 

[annemc2]

When my husband was a resident he realized that an attending on one of the services was claiming to see patients (and charging for it) when he was actually not. It was a very sticky political situation.

Nobody got killed, obviously, but I can see where if Paul had stumbled upon something really shady and was threatening to expose it, his life very well could have been in danger.

Probably not the most likely scenario, but a possibility nonetheless.

eta: this particular situation with my husband occurred at a private hospital, but the VA was a huge part of his training - residents/med students have the same supervision at both (a little more leeway at the VA and public hospitals, but still closely supervised by upper levels and attendings)

 

[jjenny]

When my husband was a resident he realized that an attending on one of the services was claiming to see patients (and charging for it) when he was actually not. It was a very sticky political situation.

Nobody got killed, obviously, but I can see where if Paul had stumbled upon something really shady and was threatening to expose it, his life very well could have been in danger.

Probably not the most likely scenario, but a possibility nonetheless.

I agree. It's very unlikely that he knew something and was killed because of it, but so far we have no suspects so I suppose anything goes as far as potential motive.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

When my husband was a resident he realized that an attending on one of the services was claiming to see patients (and charging for it) when he was actually not. It was a very sticky political situation.

Nobody got killed, obviously, but I can see where if Paul had stumbled upon something really shady and was threatening to expose it, his life very well could have been in danger.

Probably not the most likely scenario, but a possibility nonetheless.

eta: this particular situation with my husband occurred at a private hospital, but the VA was a huge part of his training - residents/med students have the same supervision at both (a little more leeway at the VA and public hospitals, but still closely supervised by upper levels and attendings)

Okay I have to get personal here. I had an intern at an Army hospital rip a three foot long drain out of my body without any warning or bracing (like the nurses do when removing a throat tube). As he began pulling it I felt as if my guts were being ripped out along with it and I screamed (I mean, I screamed!) and he stopped. He had no idea what that felt like and looked surprised. My knees bolted upward towards my chest possibly causing irritation/scar tissue. He looked like a walking zombie most of the time and I know he didn't do it on purpose but he was acting alone with no assistance. I'm almost positive I was his first abdominal drain removal! (A civilian surgeon told me later that drain wasn't even necessary in my case therefore, I conclude, I was used to provide experience.)

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Okay I have to get personal here. I had an intern at an Army hospital rip a three foot long drain out of my body without any warning or bracing (like the nurses do when removing a throat tube). As he began pulling it I felt as if my guts were being ripped out along with it and I screamed (I mean, I screamed!) and he stopped. He had no idea what that felt like and looked surprised. My knees bolted upward towards my chest possibly causing irritation/scar tissue. He looked like a walking zombie most of the time and I know he didn't do it on purpose but he was acting alone with no assistance. I'm almost positive I was his first abdominal drain removal! (A civilian surgeon told me later that drain wasn't even necessary in my case therefore, I conclude, I was used to provide experience.)

Yikes!

 

[black_squirrel]

http://michigan.concealedcampus.org/resources/current-laws-pertaining-to-campus-carry/

Guns are not permitted in dormitories or classrooms. They are permitted on campus grounds.

Maybe there are no state laws against guns on campus grounds, but I believe that the University of Michigan does not allow it. However, I think I read somewhere that the fraternity is not on campus grounds. (just outside the border of the campus). So it would have been legal for DeWolf to keep a gun in his room.

 

[black_squirrel]

Something related to giving medical care or, like you said, something he was concerned about regarding procedures at the VA hospital and went above someone's head - something related to a mistake made at the hospital. I'm aware that he wasn't doing surgeries on his own but he's probably observing by now.

Is there any hands-on contact with patients as a fourth year student? His internship was coming up next year. Do they walk into that position without ever having done anything to a human at all? A person on my doctor's team, who has a certificate as a physician's helper (1-1/2 year certificate), drew my blood last Wednesday. While making conversation, I questioned her about the differences between her role, a nurse practitioner, an RN, etc. That's how I learned she wasn't a nurse!

The medical student may be doing some procedures, but there would also be supervision. As soon as there are any complications another physician would take over. He might "catch a baby" in the OBGYN, but probably would not do any C-section.

 

[black_squirrel]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_can_you_live_with_a_severed_artery

It says here that the carotid artery in the neck is the second biggest threat of arterial bleeds after the aorta. Is it possible that, if he was shot with a low caliber weapon that caused only a small entrance wound yet hit the artery without exiting the body, is enough to cause internal bleeding that led to death. Possibly without leaving any external evidence.

Someone I knew had a little gun that made only a quick popping sound when fired. The bullets were small but if shot into a major artery would still sever it. Maybe, a small gun was used which is why nobody heard a shot fired.

That is an interesting link. If he had been shot by a small caliber gun, only an artery or vein would have been severed, and he would still have about 2 minutes to live. But wouldn't he have cried for help, or make noise in some way to get the attention of other people in the house? Or perhaps it was a large caliber and death was immediate?

 

[black_squirrel]

Would Zhao's role in the anatomy department allow him to know if any part of a human body was being illegally harvested or kept or sold (I'm just brainstorming) or anything he'd notice that's off (but not involved in) where he may have questioned it? In other words, would there be a possibility for someone to make money illegally via having access to the dead bodies? Stem cells, something like that?

I suppose that is possible. If true, that would be a good Robin Cook novel. But I do not see any indications that something as sinister as that is going on.

My guess is that Zhao's death was a suicide, and that it is not related to DeWolf's death. But you never can be sure.