MISTRIAL MI - Prosecutor to probe Flint water crisis, Jan 2016

[Elley Mae]

How Flint water crisis emerged.


http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html

 

[Trident]

Following this, and digging into why the replacement of lead pipes has been so deferred/ delayed. One source says half of the homes in Flint have lead supply pipes.And the giant pipes that supply the city could possibly be over a hundred years old like the ones that bring in Chicago's water supply. Why, why, why have those not been replaced??? Our infrastructure across the country is literally dissolving and crumbling.

http://www.metroplanning.org/news/6518/This-is-what-100-year-old-pipes-look-like

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/...old-pipes-phillys-water-leak-rate-stays-high-

http://newsarchive.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news-221928.html

http://www.chicagolandh2o.org/documents/lake-michigan.pdf

Skipping ahead, the state of Michigan will be on the hook to the 100K residents of Flint for settlement $$ pretty much for the next 75-100 years, IMO. Scores of people will eventually be awarded "lead checks" funded by the state of Michigan, after all the lawsuits and settlements are conducted. Then the predatory agencies that buy structured settlements will move in, as they have in Baltimore.

I cannot fathom where the money is going to come from to pay all these people that will qualify for compensation.

This crisis has the potential to bankrupt Michigan in a way that will be more ongoing and permanent than the departure of the auto industry.

Monumentally sad and frustrating for the citizens of Flint, the State, and the other taxpayers that will have to pay for this. The cleanup of the water supply, bottled water, and filters, etc is but a tiny scratch in what this water crisis will cost over time.

BBM. Yes, our infrastructure is crumbling and we have old pipes. I believe we could have replaced them years ago if we weren't paying a certain segment of our dying cities to sit on their behinds and play the victim. Now, are we going to pay them even more because of bad water? Probably. My town had "bad" water for quite a while. No one cared, nor did we receive compensation.

You have to wonder what the differences are in this country and when you do, you may go berserk.

:cow:

 

[kimlynn]

Monsters! Should be tried for attemped homicide

There has been a spike in Legionnaires since the change over in water supply. 87 cases of which 10 were fatal.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2016/01/legionaires_disease_spike_disc.html

 

[kimlynn]

Generally speaking, yes.

http://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/11/lead-contaminated-water-bathing-showering-concerns/

From your link there was one case in Flint where he or she advised not to bathe with the water. I don't think I would take any chances,but I imagine by the time people were made aware it was already to late for them to make a choice.

 

[Montjoy]

I believe we could have replaced them years ago if we weren't paying a certain segment of our dying cities to sit on their behinds and play the victim.

What segment is that?

 

[Trident]

What segment is that?

The segment who sit on their behinds and collect tax-payer dollars - just like I said.

 

[bluesneakers]

The segment who sit on their behinds and collect tax-payer dollars - just like I said.

Sign me up!

Except please provide potable water kthanks.

 

[Trident]

Sign me up!

Except please provide potable water kthanks.

Aw, shucks, we all have to buy our own, LOL. No one around here trusts the water supply.

 

[LietKynes]

Saw the photos of that water... pretty awful.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

BBM. Yes, our infrastructure is crumbling and we have old pipes. I believe we could have replaced them years ago if we weren't paying a certain segment of our dying cities to sit on their behinds and play the victim. Now, are we going to pay them even more because of bad water? Probably. My town had "bad" water for quite a while. No one cared, nor did we receive compensation.

You have to wonder what the differences are in this country and when you do, you may go berserk.

:cow:

Why are you blaming welfare recipients in a dying town for their government covering up contamined water? Are you saying the government didn't have the money to fix this issue because they were too busy paying for food stamps? How about using some of the defense budget to fix the infrastructure? How about raising taxes on the rich? But no it's the "poor and lazy" who are responsible. These people were poisoned, and will deal with the consequences for the rest of their lives, and you're blaming them? I guess you're sort of right...If these people were middle-class, there's no way the issue wouldn't be fixed right away.

I would also be interested in hearing the story of contiminated water in your town. The use of quotes around the word "bad" is making me think "bad" is subjective meaning it was never confirmed the water in your town was contiminated. Was it confirmed there was lead poisioning? Was this before people knew about the dangers? Was it covered up by the government?

 

[bluesneakers]

So in the middle of all this Flint is still shutting off water?


Flint restarts water shutoff notices after brief holiday reprieve

The city's holiday break from water shutoff notices is over as officials say they will again start sending warnings to those behind on their bills.

However, some residents have expressed outrage over the fact they are being billed for water they cannot drink without filtration due to elevated lead levels found in water in some Flint homes.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Why are you blaming welfare recipients in a dying town for their government covering up contamined water? Are you saying the government didn't have the money to fix this issue because they were too busy paying for food stamps? How about using some of the defense budget to fix the infrastructure? How about raising taxes on the rich? But no it's the "poor and lazy" who are responsible. These people were poisoned, and will deal with the consequences for the rest of their lives, and you're blaming them? I guess you're sort of right...If these people were middle-class, there's no way the issue wouldn't be fixed right away.

I would also be interested in hearing the story of contiminated water in yokur town. The use of quotes around the word "bad" is making me think "bad" is subjective meaning it was never confirmed the water in your town was contiminated. Was it confirmed there was lead poisioning? Was this before people knew about the dangers? Was it covered up by the government?

The level of poverty in Flint and Detroit is at least partially a function of automakers outsourcing labor outside the country to avoid having to pay a living wage. Michael Moore's film Roger and Me provided an up close and personal look at changes. Blaming the victims simply postpones any responsibility for responses or solutions. So far as I can tell, the current Governor has put the icing on the cake by throwing impoverished areas into receivership and effectively removing from residents the ability to elect their own local governments.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Why are you blaming welfare recipients in a dying town for their government covering up contamined water? Are you saying the government didn't have the money to fix this issue because they were too busy paying for food stamps? How about using some of the defense budget to fix the infrastructure? How about raising taxes on the rich? But no it's the "poor and lazy" who are responsible. These people were poisoned, and will deal with the consequences for the rest of their lives, and you're blaming them? I guess you're sort of right...If these people were middle-class, there's no way the issue wouldn't be fixed right away.

I would also be interested in hearing the story of contiminated water in your town. The use of quotes around the word "bad" is making me think "bad" is subjective meaning it was never confirmed the water in your town was contiminated. Was it confirmed there was lead poisioning? Was this before people knew about the dangers? Was it covered up by the government?

Agree, except that the middle class are increasingly overlooked as well. Salaries of the middle class have stagnated and dropped in recent decades. College tuition has skyrocketed and financial aid has been replaced by loans. Yeah, we would be pretty upset if a middle class housing deveopment pulled what happened in Flint--but I see the middle class shrinking, and frequently the blame is misplaced--on welfare, on unions, on immigrants.

 

[K_Z]

I think while everyone decides what should happen next in Flint, it's important to remember that the water supply was changed back to the Detroit supply lines the beginning of October 2015. The current water flowing in Detroit is the same "cleanliness" level as it was before the switch to the Flint River source-- but the current worry is that the more acidic water that flowed for 15 months or so "softened" or dissolved more of the inside of the current lead pipes. It isn't known yet what the ongoing effect at the taps are, and residents are being urged to submit samples every few weeks. (Authorities want 500 samples per month minimum to evaluate what is currently going on.)

The federal emergency grant is only 5 million, and will only cover roughly 3 months of emergency water, testing, and filters for residents. The request for a major disaster declaration was denied, because the current situation is not a natural disaster.

The REAL "ongoing" situation, as I see it, is 3 fold-- the issues related to the cover up, the current deteriorating pipes made of lead that the city/ state IS responsible for (not the lead pipes and solder within the older residences, which are the responsibility of the landlords), and the effect of the lead on the youngest children who were exposed for 15 months.

It is the last of those three that is the most worrisome from a public health perspective, as the other two can be solved with enough collective resolve and money.

Adults will not suffer many long term effects from short term lead exposure, but the kids who have high levels that aren't treated will have myriad social and educational issues for decades from the permanent damage of the neurotoxin (and the resultant effects on society, and the inevitable costs to compensate and manage those affected.)

There are some very robust (IMO) longitudinal studies that have positively correlated violent criminality with increased lead levels during early childhood, which I know is controversial. (And no, I'm not "blaming the victims here-- just pointing out some of the social concerns beyond ADHD and low educational and job achievement.) Those longitudinal studies looked at the issues in thousands of children in several countries (China had one of the biggest longitudinal studies) after leaded gasoline was removed. (Exposure to, and breathing aerosolized lead.) When the gas was changed, the levels of lead plummeted, and violent crime decreased proportionately as the unaffected next generation of kids moved into their teens and twenties. Just a large amount of social problems result from lead poisoning of young kids-- piling onto the existing problems of poverty and social circumstances. But it's a delayed impact, and not easily envisioned while the kids are still very young. And kids with high lead levels are completely asymptomatic-- they have no outward evidence of the effects of a high blood level of lead, so it's a hidden condition that manifests as the child grows up, in their behavior and academic achievement. Very, very sad and frustrating.

I just don't understand why no one wants to foot the money to replace the crumbling lead pipes-- even if politicians are heartless about the damage to children's brains and the impact on their futures, spend the money to eliminate THAT as part of the problem. It's a no-brainer, IMO. I guess crumbling pipes aren't sexy enough to "sell" to the public. City water should be clean and safe in every city in America, from the point in which it is supplied to homes and businesses. IMO.

At the beginning of my career (30 years ago) when I worked pediatrics in the Cleveland area, we used to have lots of low income kids in for chelation, which used to be a very unpleasant therapy several days to a week in length. Giving those kids BAL IM shots every few hours was one of the most heart wrenching things I ever had to do as a new RN-- the stuff was thick and oily, and incredibly painful for those little ones to get in their backside muscles-- and they had IV med infusions on top of that. Miserable for them. I don't know if they still use the same drugs, or do that therapy the same way now. I hope it's easier for the kids now.

Not all kids will be recommended for chelation-- I think their levels have to be in the 40's before they do that course of therapy. FDA currently says greater than 10 is a worrisome level, and some advocate lowering it to 5.

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclpp/lead_levels_in_children_fact_sheet.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclpp/blood_lead_levels.htm

http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/P...ures/InVitroDiagnostics/LabTest/ucm126101.htm

Every kid in Flint needs to be tested, IMO, and very soon.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I think while everyone decides what should happen next in Flint, it's important to remember that the water supply was changed back to the Detroit supply lines the beginning of October 2015. The current water flowing in Detroit is the same "cleanliness" level as it was before the switch to the Flint River source-- but the current worry is that the more acidic water that flowed for 15 months or so "softened" or dissolved more of the inside of the current lead pipes. It isn't known yet what the ongoing effect at the taps are, and residents are being urged to submit samples every few weeks. (Authorities want 500 samples per month minimum to evaluate what is currently going on.)

The federal emergency grant is only 5 million, and will only cover roughly 3 months of emergency water, testing, and filters for residents. The request for a major disaster declaration was denied, because the current situation is not a natural disaster.

The REAL "ongoing" situation, as I see it, is 3 fold-- the issues related to the cover up, the current deteriorating pipes made of lead that the city/ state IS responsible for (not the lead pipes and solder within the older residences, which are the responsibility of the landlords), and the effect of the lead on the youngest children who were exposed for 15 months.

It is the last of those three that is the most worrisome from a public health perspective, as the other two can be solved with enough collective resolve and money.

Adults will not suffer many long term effects from short term lead exposure, but the kids who have high levels that aren't treated will have myriad social and educational issues for decades from the permanent damage of the neurotoxin (and the resultant effects on society, and the inevitable costs to compensate and manage those affected.)

There are some very robust (IMO) longitudinal studies that have positively correlated violent criminality with increased lead levels during early childhood, which I know is controversial. (And no, I'm not "blaming the victims here-- just pointing out some of the social concerns beyond ADHD and low educational and job achievement.) Those longitudinal studies looked at the issues in thousands of children in several countries (China had one of the biggest longitudinal studies) after leaded gasoline was removed. (Exposure to, and breathing aerosolized lead.) When the gas was changed, the levels of lead plummeted, and violent crime decreased proportionately as the unaffected next generation of kids moved into their teens and twenties. Just a large amount of social problems result from lead poisoning of young kids-- piling onto the existing problems of poverty and social circumstances. But it's a delayed impact, and not easily envisioned while the kids are still very young. And kids with high lead levels are completely asymptomatic-- they have no outward evidence of the effects of a high blood level of lead, so it's a hidden condition that manifests as the child grows up, in their behavior and academic achievement. Very, very sad and frustrating.

I just don't understand why no one wants to foot the money to replace the crumbling lead pipes-- even if politicians are heartless about the damage to children's brains and the impact on their futures, spend the money to eliminate THAT as part of the problem. It's a no-brainer, IMO. I guess crumbling pipes aren't sexy enough to "sell" to the public. City water should be clean and safe in every city in America, from the point in which it is supplied to homes and businesses. IMO.

At the beginning of my career (30 years ago) when I worked pediatrics in the Cleveland area, we used to have lots of low income kids in for chelation, which used to be a very unpleasant therapy several days to a week in length. Giving those kids BAL IM shots every few hours was one of the most heart wrenching things I ever had to do as a new RN-- the stuff was thick and oily, and incredibly painful for those little ones to get in their backside muscles-- and they had IV med infusions on top of that. Miserable for them. I don't know if they still use the same drugs, or do that therapy the same way now. I hope it's easier for the kids now.

Not all kids will be recommended for chelation-- I think their levels have to be in the 40's before they do that course of therapy. FDA currently says greater than 10 is a worrisome level, and some advocate lowering it to 5.

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclpp/lead_levels_in_children_fact_sheet.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclpp/blood_lead_levels.htm

http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/P...ures/InVitroDiagnostics/LabTest/ucm126101.htm

Every kid in Flint needs to be tested, IMO, and very soon.

I think that one of the striking issues, to me as someone with very limited science background, is that it would have been possible, when the decision was made to use the Flint rather than Detroit water supply, to treat the water prior to flowing through pipes in order to prevent the lead leeching out. This was apparently a clear point of decisions, with a high likelihood of the current results being known.

It was cold and heartless for decision makers to ignore the risk to children, as if this could not impact them now and for the rest of their lives with a heavy burden placed on society at large.

To me this was criminally irresponsible. Individuals should be removed from office, tried and imprisoned and reparations made. But further, we need to take some long hard looks at ourselves that we voted these irresponsible fools into office and allowed such policies.

 

[i.b.nora]

The Governor asked the Federal Government to replace all the pipes in Flint at a cost estimated to be 3/4 of a BILLION dollars. The President declined.

I hope I got that right, I was partly listening to and heard it on the Rachel Maddow Show.

 

[i.b.nora]

Snyder to address Flint water shut-offs tonight
Paul Egan, Detroit Free Press Lansing Bureau 9:30 a.m. EST January 19, 2016

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...dress-flint-water-shut-offs-tonight/78994522/

“LANSING — Gov. Rick Snyder will use his State of the State address tonight to address one of the most infuriating aspects of the Flint drinking water crisis — the fact city residents are facing shut-offs for failing to pay for water contaminated with lead, according to people familiar with the address.

The Free Press reported Jan. 10 that Flint residents are still being billed and facing water shut-offs for drinking water that the state now deems to” ... etc​

 

[Margo/Mom]

The Governor asked the Federal Government to replace all the pipes in Flint at a cost estimated to be 3/4 of a BILLION dollars. The President declined.

I hope I got that right, I was partly listening to and heard it on the Rachel Maddow Show.

I believe that the rationale was that this is not a "natural" disaster, that is related to weather or something of the kind.

I also believe that while it is tempting to think that the feds should come in with a fix--given the current severity--Michigan needs to step up to the plate for having created these problems to begin with. Not only did they foolishly choose to play fast and loose by exceeding the capabilities of the current infrastructure to provide safe drinking water (by running untreated water that was chemically more likely to produce leeching of lead from the existing pipes), but clearly some combination of insufficient regulation and penny-wise but pound foolish choices, allowed for the aging of the infrastructure beyond a point at which improvements ought to have taken place in a systematic fashion.

And what we, as a nation, are most likely going to have to come to grips with is that Flint is most likely not a unique situation. We have recently endured a couple of decades of down-sizing/right-sizing/outright destroying many regulatory functions of government; but we are sitting on top of multiple aging infrastructures that we refuse to address in an atmosphere that promises new tax cuts (primarily to those who need them the least) as a part of the rhetoric of every new election. We have developed rigidly economically segregated living situations so that the citizens of suburban Detroit never come in contact with the people of Flint who have brown water coming out of their taps. Those people also never see the inside of Detroit schools, where mould grows and rats run. With their own McMansions on 1 acre lots it doesn't occur to them that public parks are of any importance. And the fact that someone like Donald Trump looks like a serious candidate for President with his blame-the-poor-Muslim-immigrant (fill in the blank) platform, and people are eating it up, should cause us to hang our heads in shame.

Sorry--but even the Brits across the seas can see how dangerous that is.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

EPA regional chief FINALLY resigns over Flint crisis - 22 months after residents first started complaining about the high levels of lead in the water

Susan Heman will step down on February 1 as a result of the scandal

U.S. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah has said the move is 'way overdue'

High levels of lead have been detected in the city's water since April 2014

Some children's blood levels have tested positive for lead

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ns-connection-Flint-crisis.html#ixzz3xx74s6xl

 

[rosie_lee]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/flint-water-crisis-hospital-suspected-river-legionnaires-disease-link/

DETROIT --*The head of a Flint hospital that found Legionnaires' disease bacteria in its water system more than a year ago said he and experts suspected*the Flint River was a likely source*of the contaminant.

Don Kooy, president of McLaren hospital, said he was surprised that Michigan and local health agencies didn't inform the public about a Legionnaires' outbreak in Genesee County in 2014-15 until just a few weeks ago.

The outbreak occurred while Flint residents were repeatedly complaining about dirty tap water coming from the river -- a crisis that ultimately caused*exposure to lead and other health problems.


Health clinics overwhelmed by lead testing in Flint

"It's a public health issue," Kooy told The Associated Press. "There were people in the city of Flint seeing brown water. It would seem logical that there would have been public reporting or public awareness about the Legionella situation."

At least 87 Legionnaires' cases, including at least nine deaths, were confirmed across Genesee County during a 17-month period.
[...]
CBS affiliate WWJ reported*the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services said Thursday it cannot conclude that the increase in cases is related to the ongoing Flint water crisis nor can the department rule out an association
[...]
McLaren hospital spent more than $300,000 on a water treatment system and also turned to bottled water for patients.

"The change in (Flint) water quality was a likely factor in causing the increase in Legionnaires' disease" in Genesee County, said Janet Stout, a Pittsburgh microbiologist and Legionella expert who advised the hospital.
[...]
In an email three months earlier, Jim Collins, the head of Michigan's Communicable Disease Division, said the number of cases at that time "likely represents the tip of the iceberg."

Nonetheless, there was no public announcement at that time.