GUILTY MI - Renisha McBride, 19, shot while trying to get help, Detroit, Nov 2013

[greenbean]

If my husband got up at night "to investigate" a noise he'd have more to fear from me than whatever was lurking outside our locked door.

I married a scientist, not the Marlboro Man. :floorlaugh:

 

[Elainera]

It's troublesome that a jury can try to decide how someone was feeling.

And decide whether it was reasonable to feel that way.

The trial will be interesting.

 

[Karmady]

that is the audio all MSM sites have linked to, i wouldnt post if it i wasnt sure but a mod can remove it since there seems to be some question. i guess the person who titled it made a mistake.



http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/2...-theodore-wafer-after-he-shot-renisha-mcbride

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/11/renisha_mcbride_911_call_i_jus.html#incart_river

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131115/METRO01/311150064/

No, I meant I think he IS msm, so how the heck can he get her name so wrong! That's quite an unusual name and it comes up on linkedin as a reporter for the Saginaw times.

Thanks again for the audio. I was able to listen and it does sound like the first call. So poetic license from the 911 operator on the "thinks" I guess.

 

[Karmady]

Morning, all. Thanks to those that linked me up thread to earlier postings. I left WS after Kyron Horman's disappearance and did not come back until now. I have had a hard time finding Renisha's earlier threads and did as much back-reading as possible. I apologize if my questions threw the conversation off track.

ANYWHO, I'm looking for an article I read that mentioned the size of his porch. I think it is more of a poured concrete slab. I will look for a link that'll back that, IMO, he knew he hit her. At that distance, with a shotgun, I don't think there's a whole lot of room for doubt. Light on or off.

I think the "I think" was thrown in because he was setting himself up to claim it had been an accident.

I have been digging around through the dozens of articles I have read looking for the size of his porch. I did find this:


http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/renisha-mcbride-s-family-wants-to-know-why-she-was-shot-on-porch-1.6446974

There seems to be so much judgement aimed at Renisha for driving drunk. No, she SHOULD NOT have been driving drunk. Marijuana was decriminalized in Detroit in 2012. If the tests prove that Renisha was driving stoned she should not have been driving stoned.

However, Wafer was given the oppourtunity to correct his behavior as he grew older. To learn from his multiple DUI's and grow towards becoming a productive citizen that was a caretaker for his mother at the time of Renisha's death. Wafer has more than one DUI on his record, according to his attorney. It is a shame that Renisha did not survive the night in question. It is a shame that Wafer did not call the police. Then it's likely that Renisha would have been linked to the accident she caused and her father's banged up SUV.

Maybe Renisha would have gone on to be a steadily-employed high school graduate who spent a year at Northern Michigan University and whose only run-ins with the law involved a decades-old drunken driving case - if she had approached a different house that night.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/15/new-details-on-theodore-wafer-the-man-who-shot-renisha-mcbride.html

Just sayin.'

The porch is really more of a stoop with a few steps leading up to it.

The "thinks" he shot someone now looks like it came from the 911 operator. I had to link to her saying it last night, but can't find it again right now. I'll try. eta: forgot I linked it in post 390

I've noticed the the careful way the msm has worded articles about the DUI records. Nothing I've read said he was ever found guilty of the charges. Have you seen anything that confirms he was convicted. Seriously not quibbling about it since I don't think they matter anyway. Just curious and trying to stay factually accurate. The msm does love to spin things!

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Parents of woman killed in Detroit-area porch shooting scoff at idea she posed threat

Theodore Wafer charged with murder for death of Renisha McBride on his Dearborn Heights porch

Published On: Nov 16 2013 03:21:16 PM EST Updated On: Nov 17 2013 03:50:44 AM EST

DEARBORN HEIGHTS, Mich. -
The parents of a 19-year-old woman who was shot in the face on the porch of a suburban Detroit home say they find it hard to believe their daughter posed a threat to the man charged in her death.

Walter Ray Simmons and Monica McBride have spoke publicly now that Theodore Wafer has been charged with second-degree murder and manslaughter in the death of Renisha McBride on his Dearborn Heights porch.

"I can't imagine what that man feared from her. I would like to know why," Monica McBride said...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...eat/-/1719418/23005298/-/i0h2vuz/-/index.html

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

^ From article above: "...What happened between when McBride crashed into a parked vehicle several blocks north of Wafer's neighborhood and the shooting remains unclear. Police received a 911 call from Wafer about 4:42 a.m., in which he tells the dispatcher: "I just shot somebody on my front porch with a shotgun, banging on my door..."

They found McBride's body on the porch...

This article indicates that police found RM's body on Wafer's front porch. Doesn't sound like she was "dumped".

 

[jjenny]

no, he's charged with second degree murder, amongst other things. We alll know that people are charged with crimes they aren't necessarily going to be found guilty of. There have been a large number of recent examples. jmo

Exactly. Potentially he can be found not guilty of all charges. So we certainly can not discuss the case from the standpoint that he is guilty, just because he was charged.

 

[Karmady]

Parents of woman killed in Detroit-area porch shooting scoff at idea she posed threat

Theodore Wafer charged with murder for death of Renisha McBride on his Dearborn Heights porch

Published On: Nov 16 2013 03:21:16 PM EST Updated On: Nov 17 2013 03:50:44 AM EST

DEARBORN HEIGHTS, Mich. -
The parents of a 19-year-old woman who was shot in the face on the porch of a suburban Detroit home say they find it hard to believe their daughter posed a threat to the man charged in her death.

Walter Ray Simmons and Monica McBride have spoke publicly now that Theodore Wafer has been charged with second-degree murder and manslaughter in the death of Renisha McBride on his Dearborn Heights porch.

"I can't imagine what that man feared from her. I would like to know why," Monica McBride said...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...eat/-/1719418/23005298/-/i0h2vuz/-/index.html

~bbm

Does the msm do this on purpose, or are they really that bad at what they do? The parents have spoken publicly several times before. I've seen them with my own eyes!

 

[Ina Cognito]

Just able to get back to this thread now, it was also moved and I could not find it. I really don't want to read the whole thread so excuse my repetitiveness if there is any.

I am really upset about other sites really broiling the victim in this case It's like people do not understand that even people who may have done something wrong can also be a victim.... Renisha is a victim... sigh, so very tragic.

As far as the self-defense or SYG issue in this case I feel these things will not beat the charge of manslaughter. From the moment I heard about this case to me it points to involuntary manslaughter. The Castle doctrine of Michigan used to prohibit the use of deadly force outside of the home however, when they enacted SYG a section was placed within it that allowed homeowners to use such force against persons breaking into their homes. However, again, it must meet two subsections:

a) The homeowner MUST believe their home is being broken into....

and

b) Their house must actually BE BEING broken into.

Thinking it's being broken into is NOT enough to meet the elements of SYG in Michigan. Wafer thought his home was being broken into, evidence collected will show a jury whether or not it actually was being broken into. If Ranisha caused no damage to his storm doors I feel a jury will assume she was not and had not attempted to break into his home and therefore, Wafer had no right to shoot her regardless of his fear or anxiety.

While Wafer was not required to call 911 before the event, it would have made better sense, and have been a better choice. I also think a jury will have a hard time getting around the fact that he opened the door to his home. If you are "in fear for your life or of severe bodily injury due to an imminent threat" you do not tend to remove the only barrier keeping that threat from you.

While I really feel terrible for this man and his choice, I predict he will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. I'm a little lost as to why he is being charged with murder 2 but I guess evidence from the event and his initial statements to LE will explain that at trial.

 

[Tawny]

Discussing Renisha's intoxication and whereabouts in an attempt to understand how she ended up where she did, IMVHO, is not blaming or bashing her. I really believe it's more about trying to understand the chain of events that led to this tragedy. She is a victim, yes, what I want to know is... is Theodore also somehow a bit of a victim (not a victim of Renisha, but a victim of circumstance maybe?)?

 

[Karmady]

Just able to get back to this thread now, it was also moved and I could not find it. I really don't want to read the whole thread so excuse my repetitiveness if there is any.

I am really upset about other sites really broiling the victim in this case It's like people do not understand that even people who may have done something wrong can also be a victim.... Renisha is a victim... sigh, so very tragic.

As far as the self-defense or SYG issue in this case I feel these things will not beat the charge of manslaughter. From the moment I heard about this case to me it points to involuntary manslaughter. The Castle doctrine of Michigan used to prohibit the use of deadly force outside of the home however, when they enacted SYG a section was placed within it that allowed homeowners to use such force against persons breaking into their homes. However, again, it must meet two subsections:

a) The homeowner MUST believe their home is being broken into....

and

b) Their house must actually BE BEING broken into.

Thinking it's being broken into is NOT enough to meet the elements of SYG in Michigan. Wafer thought his home was being broken into, evidence collected will show a jury whether or not it actually was being broken into. If Ranisha caused no damage to his storm doors I feel a jury will assume she was not and had not attempted to break into his home and therefore, Wafer had no right to shoot her regardless of his fear or anxiety.

While Wafer was not required to call 911 before the event, it would have made better sense, and have been a better choice. I also think a jury will have a hard time getting around the fact that he opened the door to his home. If you are "in fear for your life or of severe bodily injury due to an imminent threat" you do not tend to remove the only barrier keeping that threat from you.

While I really feel terrible for this man and his choice, I predict he will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. I'm a little lost as to why he is being charged with murder 2 but I guess evidence from the event and his initial statements to LE will explain that at trial.

If that's what the Mich SYG requires, I think he'll stick to straight self-defense. In which case, based on the links posted, the test will be whether he had an honest and objectively reasonable belief that he was threatened with imminent death or great bodily injury (paraphrasing). Not 100% sure of the burden of proof, but I think the initial burden is on the defense by a preponderence and then the burden shifts back to the prosecution to show that, beyond a reasonable doubt, he had no such honest and objectively reasonable belief. jmo

 

[Karmady]

Discussing Renisha's intoxication and whereabouts in an attempt to understand how she ended up where she did, IMVHO, is not blaming or bashing her. I really believe it's more about trying to understand the chain of events that led to this tragedy. She is a victim, yes, what I want to know is... is Theodore also somehow a bit of a victim (not a victim of Renisha, but a victim of circumstance maybe?)?

I think every homeowner who is put in the position of defending themselves and/or their family in their own home in the middle of night is faced with quite a Hobson's choice. In many cases, someone's going to wind up injured or dead. And the way the law is written or enforced in most states forces the homeowner to make a split second decision under frightening circumstances whether to take his chances that it won't be him or his family that's the victim, only to be judged on that decision in hindsight while likely doing jail time in the meanwhile.

Calling 911 is all well and good, but in a lot of cases they're only going to get there in time for the aftermath. jmo

 

[Ina Cognito]

I guess he had not turned on the light otherwise he would not have "thought" that he shot someone, he would have known.

And if it was dark and he was only going by sound he could have meant to fire a warning shot. Maybe that's why he said it was accidentally. Just my speculation.

This may be part of the key to the murder 2 charge...

 

[Ina Cognito]

"Accidentally" in this instance likely means he had his finger on the trigger and was either startled or for some other reason, his grip tightened. Holding the shotgun is not indication that he intended to shoot anybody. He shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger, IMO, as a safety precaution. However, it was the wee hours of the morning, he was probably groggy and disoriented, and she may have been acting strangely. JMO based on the little bit of info we have so far. Still waiting for more to come out.

BTW, discussing her intoxication is not at all saying she deserved what happened. It is simply discussing how this could have transpired and is not victim blaming in the slightest, IMVHO.

Over the last week in thinking about this I believe he stated "accidentally" because immediately following the shot he realized it was the incorrect action and therefore "an accident." His lawyer's stance has gone from self-defense to now concentrating on her BAC. I totally expected that as soon as I saw her BAC, any lawyer would do that but, all of it is going to boil down to that initial statement he made to LE without a lawyer present as I believe he did make one.

 

[Ina Cognito]

i think the prosecution is going to make this all about what happened after he opened the door, at the end of the day forget all that other stuff and just look at what happened after he opened the door.

i think they are going to rely on his statements and the physical evidence and ask the jurors to decide if they think he honestly AND reasonably felt like he was in imminent danger.

obviously i cant say for sure either way yet since there is still so much we dont know, but i think he is facing an uphill battle.

All this case is about is what happened after he opened that door really. You've summed everything up nicely above. Her behavior when he opened the door is relevant, nothing before that is however ( other than the possibility of her knocking on another door) He is indeed facing an uphill battle IMO as well. I don't feel he can beat a manslaughter charge at all.

 

[Ina Cognito]

It's troublesome that a jury can try to decide how someone was feeling.

This case is not just about how he felt, it's also about what actually happened. As I posted above he could not just feel she was trying to enter his home, she had to actually be trying to do that. If there is no evidence of an attempt to enter as the prosecution says.... well, he is guilty as there is nothing for him to use as a defense.

 

[Ina Cognito]

It's troublesome that a jury can try to decide how someone was feeling.

Discussing Renisha's intoxication and whereabouts in an attempt to understand how she ended up where she did, IMVHO, is not blaming or bashing her. I really believe it's more about trying to understand the chain of events that led to this tragedy. She is a victim, yes, what I want to know is... is Theodore also somehow a bit of a victim (not a victim of Renisha, but a victim of circumstance maybe?)?

Tawny, I said on other sites. Other sites I've read are really digging at Renisha...blaming her. I did not say or mean this site. Hope that clears that up?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

~bbm

Does the msm do this on purpose, or are they really that bad at what they do? The parents have spoken publicly several times before. I've seen them with my own eyes!

In this particular account, there is a qualifier about the family speaking out after TW had been charged. Previous public comments by the family were prior to arraignment. This is how I interpreted the article that you're referencing. :moo:

 

[blefuscu]

So therefore he must be guilty? Just because LE says so? I think not. No doubt his side will see things differently.

What his lawyer will say is that it was 4AM, it was dark, there was an apparent intruder trying to enter his home. There were no LE there to defend him and his family, there was only him and his gun. He could call LE, but by the time they arrived, his family could be dead. So he got his gun and went to the door ready to defend. As any man who calls himself a man would. Obviously the gun was at the ready, since no one in their right mind goes into a potential confrontation with a intruder with the gun not at the ready. He was afraid. There was a shape moving erratically and mumbling incoherently at the door, a shape that did not respond to his queries. In his fear of the unknown his finger tighten on the trigger and the gun went off.

That bit bolded by me made me laugh. Which century do we live in? Lol. I'm trying to work out whether you mean men should confront everything with aggression rather than just phone 911, or that by phoning 911 would make him less of a man. Either way it's just ridiculous. Men, whether they are the manliest men ever, or true wimpy geeks, do not have the right to shoot people.

 

[Zuri]

that is the audio all MSM sites have linked to, i wouldnt post if it i wasnt sure but a mod can remove it since there seems to be some question. i guess the person who titled it made a mistake.



http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/2...-theodore-wafer-after-he-shot-renisha-mcbride

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/11/renisha_mcbride_911_call_i_jus.html#incart_river

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131115/METRO01/311150064/

Thank you liljim for posting these. In the Detroit News article, WITNESSES to the MVC stated she was "bloody and disoriented". Why on earth didn't one of these witnesses offer her a blanket and a warm place to sit until the police arrived? IMO this speaks volumes to perhaps the prevailing sentiment of not wanting to get involved. The police were called and apparently told that Reniesha had left the scene so the officers were not dispatched immediately as it was considered low priority. I realize that Detroit and Michigan are in financial straits and may not have the police manpower to investigate every call that comes in immediately. Could this be why Wafer had the gun at the ready? Could he not depend on LE to show up fast enough? To my mind that is implied fear.
I think this horrible incident could have been prevented from the onset. Somebody should have never supplied her with enough alcohol to render her so intoxicated. Somebody should have taken her keys. The witnesses to the accident that saw her TWICE should have offered her shelter, Wafer should have never opened his door. If people had acted in a IMO thoughtful and reasonable manner (coming from where I sit) this girl would not have been shot dead and a man would not be charged with murder. I don't believe Wafer's house was the first door she knocked on. IMO this is a perfect example of people acting irresponsibly from the outset, LE included. All this could have been prevented. Exactly how, I don't know. I think it runs deeper than face value. JMV