Miscarriage vs. Abortion

[mrye4709]

Is that how you personally see the definitions? Because abortion and miscarriage before the 20th week of pregnancy are interchangeable in usage. Medical professionals can use either term. Consciously having an abortion has no affect on whether you term it an abortion or a miscarriage. I have heard women refer to spontaneous or natural abortions as simply an abortion, and they wanted the child.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002458/

I noticed in your sig that you have a fused spine, AS??

 

[BBB167893]

I would say the Ramseys (if you are an RDI) made a 2nd degree murder (rather than an accident, IMO) look like a 1st degree murder, and it worked out great for them. It shouldn't have, but it did. It was really a good idea. Who knew LE would further bungle it?

Like I've said many times, wallflower: the Ramseys were lucky, not clever.

 

[BBB167893]

Before this case I believed Alex Hunter to be a total farce as a DA. I now have a different view of him and am grateful he didn't pursue a charge against anyone in the R family that he couldn't back up with some irrefutable evidence. Baez isn't nearly as skilled an attorney as the team the R's assembled. With people like Lou Smit willing to testify for the R's theory of an intruder I think everyone would have been as shocked as they are about the Casey Anthony trial when Patsy walked free.

Well, he WAS a total farce as a DA, and his successor was even worse, but I get where you're coming from, CathyR. Maybe Alex Hunter was just being honest with himself. Maybe he was well-aware that he wasn't up to the job.

 

[DeeDee249]

Well, he WAS a total farce as a DA, and his successor was even worse, but I get where you're coming from, CathyR. Maybe Alex Hunter was just being honest with himself. Maybe he was well-aware that he wasn't up to the job.

I agree. He was also very close to retirement. He REALLY just wanted this whole mess to go away so that he could slip into oblivion. Right. He'll be forever infamous for being instrumental in seeing that the crime was never solved. We can add LS to that axis of evil as well. Add in LW and you have the UNholy trinity. A killer's dream team. On the side of money and power, and not on the side of justice. And certainly not on the side of JB.

 

[wonderllama]

I also don't agree the Jury were stupid or of low intelligence.
I simply think they were themselves victims of a system which required them to be absolutely positive before sending someone to their death.

Casey was clearly a liar, clearly deceitful, clearly misled and hid facts etc.
But despite all the chloroform evidence and the like, she had 2 things in her favour. Two things that muddied the water sufficiently to cast a single element of doubt into the minds of the jury.

Her parents.

The Ramseys pointed their fingers all over the place and in effect, it saved them cos nobody could work out what the hell was going on. They had the luxury of being able to do it outside of the courtroom.

The Anthony Defence Team only had to point the finger at George...and he appeared to have something to hide. And further to that, if the Prosecution was unable to physically prove how Caylee died, that in itself is doubt, or at least uncertainty.

You can put your best case forward, circumstantial or not, but if you can't definitely prove to the jury how someone died, and you can't rule out the dodgy father from having something to hide, then you can't send someone to death row.

We may not agree, but the Jury got it right.

The only consolation we have from this case is that someone as screwed up as Casey is bound to mess up again, and then perhaps like OJ, she'll get some level of punishment.

 

[Starfish]

The Anthony jury had 2 lesser charges they could have chosen, so sentencing her to death was not their only option. The Peterson jury sentenced him to death with no COD or as much evidence as the Anthony jury was presented with. When you have hundreds of pieces of "circumstantial" evidence that only points to one person, the meaning of circumstantial takes a turn. One of the HLN lawyers put it perfectly when she said "you wake up in the morning and you go outside & your cars is wet, your driveway is wet, and your newspaper is wet, you didn't actually see it rain, but you know it did".

Our justice system scares me, I can't say that I believe in it when some people walk away (Casey, OJ) and some people do not (Scott). I have no idea how to make it better, judges don't seem to do any better, with judges it seems if you have enough money you can get away with a hell of a lot more than if you don't.....Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton, and a LOT of other famous, rich celebrities have not spent a second in jail for things that the average person would have been locked up for years had they been caught for the same thing. It seems the laws are geared more to protecting the rights of the criminals than the rights of the victims, just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[CathyR]

I guess no one got it better than the jurors did.

I love Dr. G but her conclusion that Casey was dumped with duct tape over her mouth and nose is totally non believable IMO. How could the duct tape retain enough stickiness to hold the jaw and skull together when a body has rotted away under it. Animals have scavenged it and it was exposed to wet then dry conditions. I didn't buy it. Just because I hold her in high esteem does not mean I believe this is in any way possible.
The jurors were not daily all fired up by Nancy Grace and other talking heads who have made and will continue to make really absurd statements with every case they comment on. All designed to make the defendant, or suspect look like the devil incarnate.
Remember the guy who was a person of interest in the Elizabeth Smart case who died in prison and was not involved in any manner with her kidnapping. He wasn't of the highest caliber morally and was found to have violated his parole during the Smart investigation so he was re incarcerated. After his arrest I was afraid he would never reach trial and would be killed in jail before Elizabeth's body was ever found. The media had everyone so fired up and ready to kill him on sight.
I am so happy Warren Jeffs got convicted and given a long sentence but Jane Velez Mitchell made some statements like "how dare he walk into the courtroom and on the street like that". Cause Jane he isn't on trial for the manner he walks and who the heck cares how he walks, how is that relevant to the case? Do only child rapist walk like that?
It is statements like that that fire up the general public and make people ready to form a lynch mob. Comments deliberately designed to make people rule with emotion and not their heads or the evidence.

The computer expert was an idiot. The reason 84 hits are on the computer is because after someone looked up chloroform they walked away from the computer and left the page up. The web site updated at it's scheduled time until it had automatically refreshed itself 83 times before someone closed out the page. Cindy very well could have looked it up and left the page open walked away and hours or minutes later left to go to work.

Believe me if they could prove she committed perjury they would be doing it and using her employment records as proof. Even Nancy Grace had to admit later after the verdict that he( the State's computer expert) was wrong and I'm sure the couple of the computer savvy individuals ( there was at least 1 IT professional on the jury) who looked at the long list of forensic work he did and were able to tell what all those /[]\^ * meant and he knew better and told the other fellow jurors what it really meant. I don't think Casey possess enough intelligence to make chloroform from looking at the page 1 time. I think she would need 84 SEPARATE hits on the web site to do so.

Cindy was witnesses literally hosing down the car trunk with a febreeze like product and I imagine that is where the chloroform came from. If so much body fluids from a dead Caylee seeped out of the bags because the body was decomposing in the car why is there no even partial DNA of Caylee that was found in the trunk.

Point made the prosecution did not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and no matter how much we want CA to be punished by prison or the DP it is not going to happen on earth while she is alive or at least not for the death of her daughter.

They jury is not dumb they are not 12 village idiots and they were swayed ONLY by the evidence they saw and heard in court and not the nose ring Nancy and her fellow media crime commentators lead people by during their coverage.

They do it for ratings, they do it for money, don't even think for a moment they are as emotionally impacted as they WANT YOU TO BE. That is her job and she is very very good at it.

There was direct links to the body, to the dump site area and time and many many more pieces of circumstantial evidence in the Scott Peterson trial that could not be anything else but him killing his wife. He even told his girlfriend she was dead before he ever killed her. Talk about premeditation. What evidence was presented was way beyond reasonable doubt.

If you want to be mad at someone be mad at the prosecution for putting on such a flimsy case. When a murder occurs in your community don't put pressure on your DA or police officers to DO SOMETHING ABOUT this NOW. It is their jobs and they know it. Your call and complaining only takes away from the time they should be investigating and it makes the job harder as they become "under pressure to solve the case QUICKLY". It is what we elected them and pay them to do for us. When it comes to murder then there is no statute of limitations and if we as a community show them the support they need to get as much evidence as possible that WILL STICK LIKE SUPERGLUE people like CA stand a much less chance of being acquitted.

My husband and I watched the whole trial and we both said we thought the DA failed to prove his case. We also felt the media should be held accountable for the manner they reported this and put way too much pressure on the DA and police to solve this case and arrest that mother ASAP. JB wasn't that great and didn't back up his opening statements other than getting Kronk to admit he did stir things up at the crime scene somewhat and that info was never given to Dr.G.

The most important part of a murder trial is being able to determine how the victim died that is the linchpin of any murder trial. Otherwise all you have is suspicion. I love her but Dr. G failed miserably.

Why would anyone cover up an accident? Because if you fail to watch your child and she/he drowns, gets hit by a car, any number of things that can happen, while you are talking on the phone or doing something else instead of watching them, then our society and laws hold you responsible for it. I don't think ANYONE here thinks CA can take the blame for passing gas let alone something more serious like this. What did she do then she lied and lied and lied some more. She lies to her parents, her brother, to anyone she has ever known, and not little white ones either.

No one could testify CA was ever mean to Caylee or abused her, didn't want her, considered her a burden or had any history of even leaving her in the car while she ran into the 7-11 with the car left running to pick up some beer. No circumstantial evidence to say CA was anything else but a mom who loved and took care of her. She had built in, live with, babysitters and Caylee lacked for nothing. Heck as flighty as she was even if Cindy and George didn't want to watch her all CA had to do was leave her there and either one of them would have missed work or any other important event to make sure she was taken care of. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have been mad at her but she could have partied all she wanted and never endangered Caylee by just dumping the responsibility on her parents or brother. I've disgustedly known people like that and while the parents aren't happy with their child they always took good care of their grandkids anyway. I knew one girl who would sneak out anyway if her parents refused to babysit. She didn't even live with them at the time she did this to them. One time dropped her kid at the door with an overnite bag, rang the bell and just took off in her car when her parents answered the door. I actually know the grandparents and heard about their daughter from them and met her briefly a couple of times. She was a huge liar too the daughter that is.

Hating on the jurors only shows how easily you will buy snake oil from a savvy salesman. Hating on JB shows you don't believe in our legal system. He did what he was paid to do but the prosecution did less than a poor job and that is why CA was acquitted. I don't expect a neat little CSI package but I do expect more than the case the DA presented.

Stick to the facts and not someone else's armchair psychological manipulations.

My dad used to ask us "Are you dumb like the cows or are you smart like the cowboy who drives the herd." "Don't let someone's else's opinion be what drives you. Look at the world and make your OWN decisions based on what you KNOW. Since there are no bridges in our county he used that analogy instead of "Just cause everyone else is jumping off are you going to blindly follow.

 

[BBB167893]

I guess no one got it better than the jurors did.

I love Dr. G but her conclusion that Casey was dumped with duct tape over her mouth and nose is totally non believable IMO. How could the duct tape retain enough stickiness to hold the jaw and skull together when a body has rotted away under it. Animals have scavenged it and it was exposed to wet then dry conditions. I didn't buy it. Just because I hold her in high esteem does not mean I believe this is in any way possible.
The jurors were not daily all fired up by Nancy Grace and other talking heads who have made and will continue to make really absurd statements with every case they comment on. All designed to make the defendant, or suspect look like the devil incarnate.
Remember the guy who was a person of interest in the Elizabeth Smart case who died in prison and was not involved in any manner with her kidnapping. He wasn't of the highest caliber morally and was found to have violated his parole during the Smart investigation so he was re incarcerated. After his arrest I was afraid he would never reach trial and would be killed in jail before Elizabeth's body was ever found. The media had everyone so fired up and ready to kill him on sight.
I am so happy Warren Jeffs got convicted and given a long sentence but Jane Velez Mitchell made some statements like "how dare he walk into the courtroom and on the street like that". Cause Jane he isn't on trial for the manner he walks and who the heck cares how he walks, how is that relevant to the case? Do only child rapist walk like that?
It is statements like that that fire up the general public and make people ready to form a lynch mob. Comments deliberately designed to make people rule with emotion and not their heads or the evidence.

The computer expert was an idiot. The reason 84 hits are on the computer is because after someone looked up chloroform they walked away from the computer and left the page up. The web site updated at it's scheduled time until it had automatically refreshed itself 83 times before someone closed out the page. Cindy very well could have looked it up and left the page open walked away and hours or minutes later left to go to work.

Believe me if they could prove she committed perjury they would be doing it and using her employment records as proof. Even Nancy Grace had to admit later after the verdict that he( the State's computer expert) was wrong and I'm sure the couple of the computer savvy individuals ( there was at least 1 IT professional on the jury) who looked at the long list of forensic work he did and were able to tell what all those /[]\^ * meant and he knew better and told the other fellow jurors what it really meant. I don't think Casey possess enough intelligence to make chloroform from looking at the page 1 time. I think she would need 84 SEPARATE hits on the web site to do so.

Cindy was witnesses literally hosing down the car trunk with a febreeze like product and I imagine that is where the chloroform came from. If so much body fluids from a dead Caylee seeped out of the bags because the body was decomposing in the car why is there no even partial DNA of Caylee that was found in the trunk.

Point made the prosecution did not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and no matter how much we want CA to be punished by prison or the DP it is not going to happen on earth while she is alive or at least not for the death of her daughter.

They jury is not dumb they are not 12 village idiots and they were swayed ONLY by the evidence they saw and heard in court and not the nose ring Nancy and her fellow media crime commentators lead people by during their coverage.

They do it for ratings, they do it for money, don't even think for a moment they are as emotionally impacted as they WANT YOU TO BE. That is her job and she is very very good at it.

There was direct links to the body, to the dump site area and time and many many more pieces of circumstantial evidence in the Scott Peterson trial that could not be anything else but him killing his wife. He even told his girlfriend she was dead before he ever killed her. Talk about premeditation. What evidence was presented was way beyond reasonable doubt.

If you want to be mad at someone be mad at the prosecution for putting on such a flimsy case. When a murder occurs in your community don't put pressure on your DA or police officers to DO SOMETHING ABOUT this NOW. It is their jobs and they know it. Your call and complaining only takes away from the time they should be investigating and it makes the job harder as they become "under pressure to solve the case QUICKLY". It is what we elected them and pay them to do for us. When it comes to murder then there is no statute of limitations and if we as a community show them the support they need to get as much evidence as possible that WILL STICK LIKE SUPERGLUE people like CA stand a much less chance of being acquitted.

My husband and I watched the whole trial and we both said we thought the DA failed to prove his case. We also felt the media should be held accountable for the manner they reported this and put way too much pressure on the DA and police to solve this case and arrest that mother ASAP. JB wasn't that great and didn't back up his opening statements other than getting Kronk to admit he did stir things up at the crime scene somewhat and that info was never given to Dr.G.

The most important part of a murder trial is being able to determine how the victim died that is the linchpin of any murder trial. Otherwise all you have is suspicion. I love her but Dr. G failed miserably.

Why would anyone cover up an accident? Because if you fail to watch your child and she/he drowns, gets hit by a car, any number of things that can happen, while you are talking on the phone or doing something else instead of watching them, then our society and laws hold you responsible for it. I don't think ANYONE here thinks CA can take the blame for passing gas let alone something more serious like this. What did she do then she lied and lied and lied some more. She lies to her parents, her brother, to anyone she has ever known, and not little white ones either.

No one could testify CA was ever mean to Caylee or abused her, didn't want her, considered her a burden or had any history of even leaving her in the car while she ran into the 7-11 with the car left running to pick up some beer. No circumstantial evidence to say CA was anything else but a mom who loved and took care of her. She had built in, live with, babysitters and Caylee lacked for nothing. Heck as flighty as she was even if Cindy and George didn't want to watch her all CA had to do was leave her there and either one of them would have missed work or any other important event to make sure she was taken care of. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have been mad at her but she could have partied all she wanted and never endangered Caylee by just dumping the responsibility on her parents or brother. I've disgustedly known people like that and while the parents aren't happy with their child they always took good care of their grandkids anyway. I knew one girl who would sneak out anyway if her parents refused to babysit. She didn't even live with them at the time she did this to them. One time dropped her kid at the door with an overnite bag, rang the bell and just took off in her car when her parents answered the door. I actually know the grandparents and heard about their daughter from them and met her briefly a couple of times. She was a huge liar too the daughter that is.

Hating on the jurors only shows how easily you will buy snake oil from a savvy salesman. Hating on JB shows you don't believe in our legal system. He did what he was paid to do but the prosecution did less than a poor job and that is why CA was acquitted. I don't expect a neat little CSI package but I do expect more than the case the DA presented.

Stick to the facts and not someone else's armchair psychological manipulations.

My dad used to ask us "Are you dumb like the cows or are you smart like the cowboy who drives the herd." "Don't let someone's else's opinion be what drives you. Look at the world and make your OWN decisions based on what you KNOW. Since there are no bridges in our county he used that analogy instead of "Just cause everyone else is jumping off are you going to blindly follow.

I'm not sure I DO believe in the legal system anymore. The name says it all: "criminal law." The law is stacked in favor of the criminals. That's not just my opinion, either.

 

[treeseeker]

IMHO, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that Caylee died when her mother taped her mouth during a tantrum. A small snippet about a how-to parent's book being marked at the chapter on handling tantrums in Casey's room is my only evidence - well, other than the duct tape. I think its possible the rest was by a very poorly executed design to make Caylee's death look like a kidnap and murder.

IMHO, it's possible JonBenet died because her angry, frustrated mother hit her on the head. And staged a kidnap and murder.

And, IMHO, I believe we'll find out, eventually, HaLeigh Cummings also died at the hands of an angry or frustrated caretaker. Who also staged a kidnap.

While it may seem on the surface that the mothers (or mother-figure) had so very little in common, the truth is all three shared some core traits. Their children were being used to meet their own unhealthy needs. Their children's needs were not their priority. They were inept as parents and lacked control. They, IMO, were all in life situations they were unable or unwilling to deal with responsibly.

I'm not sure any of the three mothers intended murder. But IMO they did something, in anger, to cause the death of their child, something they should have known better than to do, and tried to hide it.

 

[Roy23]

I guess no one got it better than the jurors did.

I love Dr. G but her conclusion that Casey was dumped with duct tape over her mouth and nose is totally non believable IMO. How could the duct tape retain enough stickiness to hold the jaw and skull together when a body has rotted away under it. Animals have scavenged it and it was exposed to wet then dry conditions. I didn't buy it. Just because I hold her in high esteem does not mean I believe this is in any way possible.
The jurors were not daily all fired up by Nancy Grace and other talking heads who have made and will continue to make really absurd statements with every case they comment on. All designed to make the defendant, or suspect look like the devil incarnate.
Remember the guy who was a person of interest in the Elizabeth Smart case who died in prison and was not involved in any manner with her kidnapping. He wasn't of the highest caliber morally and was found to have violated his parole during the Smart investigation so he was re incarcerated. After his arrest I was afraid he would never reach trial and would be killed in jail before Elizabeth's body was ever found. The media had everyone so fired up and ready to kill him on sight.
I am so happy Warren Jeffs got convicted and given a long sentence but Jane Velez Mitchell made some statements like "how dare he walk into the courtroom and on the street like that". Cause Jane he isn't on trial for the manner he walks and who the heck cares how he walks, how is that relevant to the case? Do only child rapist walk like that?
It is statements like that that fire up the general public and make people ready to form a lynch mob. Comments deliberately designed to make people rule with emotion and not their heads or the evidence.

The computer expert was an idiot. The reason 84 hits are on the computer is because after someone looked up chloroform they walked away from the computer and left the page up. The web site updated at it's scheduled time until it had automatically refreshed itself 83 times before someone closed out the page. Cindy very well could have looked it up and left the page open walked away and hours or minutes later left to go to work.

Believe me if they could prove she committed perjury they would be doing it and using her employment records as proof. Even Nancy Grace had to admit later after the verdict that he( the State's computer expert) was wrong and I'm sure the couple of the computer savvy individuals ( there was at least 1 IT professional on the jury) who looked at the long list of forensic work he did and were able to tell what all those /[]\^ * meant and he knew better and told the other fellow jurors what it really meant. I don't think Casey possess enough intelligence to make chloroform from looking at the page 1 time. I think she would need 84 SEPARATE hits on the web site to do so.

Cindy was witnesses literally hosing down the car trunk with a febreeze like product and I imagine that is where the chloroform came from. If so much body fluids from a dead Caylee seeped out of the bags because the body was decomposing in the car why is there no even partial DNA of Caylee that was found in the trunk.

Point made the prosecution did not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and no matter how much we want CA to be punished by prison or the DP it is not going to happen on earth while she is alive or at least not for the death of her daughter.

They jury is not dumb they are not 12 village idiots and they were swayed ONLY by the evidence they saw and heard in court and not the nose ring Nancy and her fellow media crime commentators lead people by during their coverage.

They do it for ratings, they do it for money, don't even think for a moment they are as emotionally impacted as they WANT YOU TO BE. That is her job and she is very very good at it.

There was direct links to the body, to the dump site area and time and many many more pieces of circumstantial evidence in the Scott Peterson trial that could not be anything else but him killing his wife. He even told his girlfriend she was dead before he ever killed her. Talk about premeditation. What evidence was presented was way beyond reasonable doubt.

If you want to be mad at someone be mad at the prosecution for putting on such a flimsy case. When a murder occurs in your community don't put pressure on your DA or police officers to DO SOMETHING ABOUT this NOW. It is their jobs and they know it. Your call and complaining only takes away from the time they should be investigating and it makes the job harder as they become "under pressure to solve the case QUICKLY". It is what we elected them and pay them to do for us. When it comes to murder then there is no statute of limitations and if we as a community show them the support they need to get as much evidence as possible that WILL STICK LIKE SUPERGLUE people like CA stand a much less chance of being acquitted.

My husband and I watched the whole trial and we both said we thought the DA failed to prove his case. We also felt the media should be held accountable for the manner they reported this and put way too much pressure on the DA and police to solve this case and arrest that mother ASAP. JB wasn't that great and didn't back up his opening statements other than getting Kronk to admit he did stir things up at the crime scene somewhat and that info was never given to Dr.G.

The most important part of a murder trial is being able to determine how the victim died that is the linchpin of any murder trial. Otherwise all you have is suspicion. I love her but Dr. G failed miserably.

Why would anyone cover up an accident? Because if you fail to watch your child and she/he drowns, gets hit by a car, any number of things that can happen, while you are talking on the phone or doing something else instead of watching them, then our society and laws hold you responsible for it. I don't think ANYONE here thinks CA can take the blame for passing gas let alone something more serious like this. What did she do then she lied and lied and lied some more. She lies to her parents, her brother, to anyone she has ever known, and not little white ones either.

No one could testify CA was ever mean to Caylee or abused her, didn't want her, considered her a burden or had any history of even leaving her in the car while she ran into the 7-11 with the car left running to pick up some beer. No circumstantial evidence to say CA was anything else but a mom who loved and took care of her. She had built in, live with, babysitters and Caylee lacked for nothing. Heck as flighty as she was even if Cindy and George didn't want to watch her all CA had to do was leave her there and either one of them would have missed work or any other important event to make sure she was taken care of. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have been mad at her but she could have partied all she wanted and never endangered Caylee by just dumping the responsibility on her parents or brother. I've disgustedly known people like that and while the parents aren't happy with their child they always took good care of their grandkids anyway. I knew one girl who would sneak out anyway if her parents refused to babysit. She didn't even live with them at the time she did this to them. One time dropped her kid at the door with an overnite bag, rang the bell and just took off in her car when her parents answered the door. I actually know the grandparents and heard about their daughter from them and met her briefly a couple of times. She was a huge liar too the daughter that is.

Hating on the jurors only shows how easily you will buy snake oil from a savvy salesman. Hating on JB shows you don't believe in our legal system. He did what he was paid to do but the prosecution did less than a poor job and that is why CA was acquitted. I don't expect a neat little CSI package but I do expect more than the case the DA presented.

Stick to the facts and not someone else's armchair psychological manipulations.

My dad used to ask us "Are you dumb like the cows or are you smart like the cowboy who drives the herd." "Don't let someone's else's opinion be what drives you. Look at the world and make your OWN decisions based on what you KNOW. Since there are no bridges in our county he used that analogy instead of "Just cause everyone else is jumping off are you going to blindly follow.

I have to disagree with most of this. Especially in Dr. G's case. Only a forensic pathologist could have put the jawbone in its perfect anatomical position or duct tape held it in place. This is why Dr. Warner Spitz is on my S List. He let his personal feelings get in the way with the truth.