• #781
Just commenting on recent posts about who was the target and/or why that night.

It does seem significant to me this wasn't an ordinary, routine night. Often we see home invasions/kidnappings happen on a 'normal' night. The perp has been surveilling the place, has figured out the routine, created a plan, then strikes.

Eg Idaho 4, the Tepe's.

This was not a normal night. Suze might not have come home at all. And when she did, another person with her, and so a strange car in the driveway...IMO would put off a stalker of the home.

So I think that implies this was someone/people focussed on the girls, who followed them to the home, and knew there was only a Mom there, and decided spur of the moment to take all three. To me, that implies people (IMO could be more than one) who was on the fringe of the parties with the grads, who were pumped up by grad night and felt bold, and were looking for vulnerable young women.

JMO
(respectfully bolded) Agreed this is a special night, and that does seem extremely significant. Still feel this is someone who was aware of the activities but not necessarily from that area, and he was jmo likely beyond the age range for participating in the parties, so tend to agree with the fringe aspect. He's "in between," he's younger than Sherrill and older than Suzie and Stacy, but again jmo. Also, special nights like graduation bring chaos and unexpected events, but I think he had been watching that house and the women in it for a time and may have felt fairly confident that he generally knew what to expect-- he may have even welcomed the chaos, it's not just chaotic for him. He may have been rifling through purses and spending time once inside the house to make sure he was prepared for what might come next.

I don't know on the bold aspect, tend to agree especially if that was him calling on the phone, but think he's an active or dormant SK and he's as calculated as he is bold. Am wondering if a high school graduation event didn't trigger him in some way. Evidently killers might target milestone events, and since this theoretical killer would himself have experienced a high school graduation-- maybe it triggered something in him.

As special as the night is, I don't think it's more special than the layout & location of that house with two attractive females occupying it. But totally agreeing with the idea that the graduation-- it had to play some role. Am staying open to all the theories discussed on here, they've all seemed plausible and well supported and I'm not glued to any theory right now. With that said, I don't think this was any teenager or group of teens, graverobber, etc. The voice might be teenish, but this was jmo no teen.
 
  • #782
I'm not convinced it wasn't one or more persons invited to come with the girls, thereby entering the house normally. Sherrill, having fallen asleep on the couch watching tv while her room aired out may or may not have even been awake/introduced (or knew the person/s anyway).

IMO, Stacy, Suzie and the guest/s would have been drinking earlier at the very least, and perhaps continued the party in Suzie's room. From there I can think of multiple things that went off the rails, though entirely unplanned. Perhaps an expected hook up evaporated and someone reacted to being rejected. Or maybe Stacy or Suzie overdosed (or was believed to have) and someone panicked. If any one of the 3 women were headed to the phone to call for help, that could have sealed the deal. Someone under the influence, who also didn't want police contact might go to extremes. Or, because the hospital was so close and an ambulance wait would be longer...everyone voluntarily loaded into a larger vehicle en route to it. That would explain a sudden departure with no purses or cigarettes. A body carried out while maneuvering through the front door could break the porch light. Once on the road, the women realized they weren't headed to the hospital.

It's entirely possible that even more people showed up and were in the house and everything was fine, at first. The scene was so trampled that prints would not only be everywhere, but probably overlapping and unhelpful, let alone inadmissible. The perp/s could be very well known to all, but LE couldn't exactly print the entire high school student body (or faculty/staff), every family member or friend at the graduation or parties.

The timing makes it seem someone/s was already there at the house with Stacy and Suzie, or was known to be coming. I can see both Stacy and Suzie being comfortable changing into shorts and t-shirts in time to reconvene when the visitors arrived or popping together into the bathroom to change while the others got a movie ready. After the women were gone, perp/s may have come back and done a perfunctory clean up. Cinnamon might lose her mind sensing something wrong, or be underfoot in general and placed in the bathroom.

There is always evidence that hasn't been released, and in this case I'd imagine one or more suspects are still alive and potentially only in their early 50s. Forensic technology progresses every day and I think this can eventually be solved.
 
  • #783
Did that house have a crawl space? I'm seeing online that it did.
...
The crawl space, I wish we could get some more information about the crawl space of that house. It might not matter, but it might matter. I'm assuming LE checked it and found nothing amiss. I don't know, though, that just because nothing looks amiss that nothing in reality was amiss.
According to this listing, the house is noted as having:
  • Foundation: Crawl Space: Yes
 
  • #784
slh.webp


I just can't envision a scenario where there is someone already present inside the house (presumably in Sherrill's bedroom with her) when Suzie and Stacy arrived home that morning. If the perp/s where inside when they got home, they let them walk through the house, to the bathroom to remove makeup, and then back into Suzie's room to prepare for bed. If someone was already there, parked behind Sherrill's car, why let Suzy and Stacy mill around the house to prepare for bed? If he had a weapon, and almost everyone agrees that there was one present, why not nab them the second they come through the door and take the three out of the house immediately?
 
  • #785
This is the theory that I believe to be the most plausible. Someone Suzie and/or Stacy knew and did not feel threatened by show up at the house after they are getting ready for bed. The pull into the driveway, Suzie and/or Stacy recognize them, and go outside to meet them. There probably was more than one person. Suzie and/or Stacy go outside and tell them it's late, they're going to bed, etc. Sherrill hears people talking outside and goes to the door, and that is when everything accelerates from there.
why wait for them to enter house. the perp would be getting locked outside. why not snatch streeter and mccall in the driveway or on the 12 mile route home from kirby house to delmar.
 
  • #786
View attachment 646674

I just can't envision a scenario where there is someone already present inside the house (presumably in Sherrill's bedroom with her) when Suzie and Stacy arrived home that morning. If the perp/s where inside when they got home, they let them walk through the house, to the bathroom to remove makeup, and then back into Suzie's room to prepare for bed. If someone was already there, parked behind Sherrill's car, why let Suzy and Stacy mill around the house to prepare for bed? If he had a weapon, and almost everyone agrees that there was one present, why not nab them the second they come through the door and take the three out of the house immediately?
its more plausible being already in delmar than knocking in the early morning hours with 3 cars outside and a house thats locked and secure.
 
  • #787
(respectfully bolded) Agreed this is a special night, and that does seem extremely significant. Still feel this is someone who was aware of the activities but not necessarily from that area, and he was jmo likely beyond the age range for participating in the parties, so tend to agree with the fringe aspect. He's "in between," he's younger than Sherrill and older than Suzie and Stacy, but again jmo. Also, special nights like graduation bring chaos and unexpected events, but I think he had been watching that house and the women in it for a time and may have felt fairly confident that he generally knew what to expect-- he may have even welcomed the chaos, it's not just chaotic for him. He may have been rifling through purses and spending time once inside the house to make sure he was prepared for what might come next.

I don't know on the bold aspect, tend to agree especially if that was him calling on the phone, but think he's an active or dormant SK and he's as calculated as he is bold. Am wondering if a high school graduation event didn't trigger him in some way. Evidently killers might target milestone events, and since this theoretical killer would himself have experienced a high school graduation-- maybe it triggered something in him.

As special as the night is, I don't think it's more special than the layout & location of that house with two attractive females occupying it. But totally agreeing with the idea that the graduation-- it had to play some role. Am staying open to all the theories discussed on here, they've all seemed plausible and well supported and I'm not glued to any theory right now. With that said, I don't think this was any teenager or group of teens, graverobber, etc. The voice might be teenish, but this was jmo no teen.
agree. teens no way. one man, older, confident, knew what he wanted and what he was doing.
 
  • #788
why wait for them to enter house. the perp would be getting locked outside. why not snatch streeter and mccall in the driveway or on the 12 mile route home from kirby house to delmar.

Because you can't forcibly remove someone while they are driving home. And trying to abduct them in the driveway when they arrive means this person was risking one of them screaming or possibly getting away, alerting Sherrill, the cops could have been called, etc. And if the perp/s thought they could either get Suzie/Stacy to leave with them or let them come inside the house, they wouldn't have been planning on abducting them (at that point) anyway and it would be much more logical for them to pull into the driveway to be seen by Suzie/Stacy.
 
  • #789
I'm not convinced it wasn't one or more persons invited to come with the girls, thereby entering the house normally. Sherrill, having fallen asleep on the couch watching tv while her room aired out may or may not have even been awake/introduced (or knew the person/s anyway).

IMO, Stacy, Suzie and the guest/s would have been drinking earlier at the very least, and perhaps continued the party in Suzie's room. From there I can think of multiple things that went off the rails, though entirely unplanned. Perhaps an expected hook up evaporated and someone reacted to being rejected. Or maybe Stacy or Suzie overdosed (or was believed to have) and someone panicked. If any one of the 3 women were headed to the phone to call for help, that could have sealed the deal. Someone under the influence, who also didn't want police contact might go to extremes. Or, because the hospital was so close and an ambulance wait would be longer...everyone voluntarily loaded into a larger vehicle en route to it. That would explain a sudden departure with no purses or cigarettes. A body carried out while maneuvering through the front door could break the porch light. Once on the road, the women realized they weren't headed to the hospital.

It's entirely possible that even more people showed up and were in the house and everything was fine, at first. The scene was so trampled that prints would not only be everywhere, but probably overlapping and unhelpful, let alone inadmissible. The perp/s could be very well known to all, but LE couldn't exactly print the entire high school student body (or faculty/staff), every family member or friend at the graduation or parties.

The timing makes it seem someone/s was already there at the house with Stacy and Suzie, or was known to be coming. I can see both Stacy and Suzie being comfortable changing into shorts and t-shirts in time to reconvene when the visitors arrived or popping together into the bathroom to change while the others got a movie ready. After the women were gone, perp/s may have come back and done a perfunctory clean up. Cinnamon might lose her mind sensing something wrong, or be underfoot in general and placed in the bathroom.

There is always evidence that hasn't been released, and in this case I'd imagine one or more suspects are still alive and potentially only in their early 50s. Forensic technology progresses every day and I think this can eventually be solved.
Am really intrigued by an overdose theory because jmo it makes a lot of sense. But everything at that house jmo was just too neat. Accidents make mess, fights and panic make mess. They make noise. Everything is too neat, everything too still. Nobody's keys are missing. The scene the perp left behind offers no information. That's not that likely to happen, and jmo there's no way it's an accident. People came over looking for the women in that house and didn't instantly think oh no, this isn't right, or that's off, nobody immediately said there's something really wrong here. I know in hindsight it seems awful that people cleaned up, I think it's telling they cleaned up. They genuinely didn't get any information from that scene and they assumed that probably nothing was seriously wrong. Everything left nice and clean because the perp really wanted to be absolutely sure he got away with it all. A perp who goes back to clean up-- that's jmo the same type of perp, he is going to go the extra mile to preserve himself. And I just don't think that particular type of perp would resort to murder in an overdose scenario. He can probably navigate the situation in a manner posing less risk to his own interests, and in a manner far less (theoretically) brutal.

Something really serious happened at the house that night, and it's been masked, concealed, he made all the evidence disappear just like he made the women disappear. That's why I'm inclined to think he's from out of town. He's a planner, jmo. And he knows it's going to be close to impossible for LE to get him if he's from out of town. His crimes aren't really all that random at all (would bet there's a pattern to them) but his presence at the location is random. With all this said, though, none of these theories can be ruled out. Someone known to them, possible, overdose possible, multiple perps possible... Just putting it out there, I really doubt it's Cox and don't believe the hospital lot story.
 
  • #790
I'm assuming (and hoping) that the cops got the fingerprints of everyone who was in the house on the 7th, and they said that nothing in the house, fingerprint wise, showed evidence of an intruder being inside the house. No signs of struggle reported by anyone who went to the house. No forceable entry according to the cops. They never went inside the house, IMO, so there would be nothing for them to clean up.
 
  • #791
I'm assuming (and hoping) that the cops got the fingerprints of everyone who was in the house on the 7th, and they said that nothing in the house, fingerprint wise, showed evidence of an intruder being inside the house. No signs of struggle reported by anyone who went to the house. No forceable entry according to the cops. They never went inside the house, IMO, so there would be nothing for them to clean up.
Agreed the prints should be important, but lack of them doesn't mean someone voluntarily opened a door to him, jmo. And if he came in fairly early on, he had plenty of time to make sure he removed prints. He may have also been making efforts to avoid leaving prints in the first place (if intruder, I'd be pretty sure that's true). Also, the crime scene was compromised, undoubtedly destroying prints.

It's unlikely jmo that LE matched every print found to someone they could rule out. Even if they did, though, he may have made sure not to leave them, or they may have been lost/unuseable with subsequent traffic through the house. If he's theoretically made sure nobody's going to see him hovering in the area of the house-- which with that particular house, I'm sure he could
do-- he might also have felt secure enough to wear gloves. There can be glove prints, but not all types of gloves leave them.

It sounds iike the place was coated in fingerprint dust, It would be interesting to know what prints they found-- and didn't find-- on that picture frame they talked about where there was no picture in the frame. If he himself wiped for prints... there's no way they can know for a fact an intruder did that. If Sherrill is tidy, she may have somehow done it herself. But my guess is that if that was wiped clean and no prints of any resident of that home, including Sherrill's or anyone else's-- he wiped for prints himself. Because when you;'re living in a house and wipe down a frame so it'll look nice, you put the cloth down first and put the frame down (especially if the glass is still in there), you're not afraid to get fingerprints on the frame you just wiped down. Maybe the glass, but not the frame. An intruder would be different, though, he'd put the frame down so it still was caught in the cloth to avoid leaving any print. And there's no picture in the frame, correct? So if it's not him wiping it, Sherrill or Suzie's theoretically getting ready to put a picture in. There should (theoretically) be someone's prints on it, Suzie or Sherrill's. A fingerprint isn't typically going to be a problem on the frame for anyone but a murderer (arguably).

It's just a guess, but if no prints at all were found on that frame, that could actually lend itself to the intruder theory. Because people at points on the threads do seem to be speculating that there's something unsettling about that empty frame, and perhaps they're right.
 
  • #792
Because you can't forcibly remove someone while they are driving home. And trying to abduct them in the driveway when they arrive means this person was risking one of them screaming or possibly getting away, alerting Sherrill, the cops could have been called, etc. And if the perp/s thought they could either get Suzie/Stacy to leave with them or let them come inside the house, they wouldn't have been planning on abducting them (at that point) anyway and it would be much more logical for them to pull into the driveway to be seen by Suzie/Stacy.
it does not make sense the perp would allow the girls to enter home then he comes knocking. if they locked up it makes it more difficult to gain access.
 
  • #793
I'm not convinced it wasn't one or more persons invited to come with the girls, thereby entering the house normally. Sherrill, having fallen asleep on the couch watching tv while her room aired out may or may not have even been awake/introduced (or knew the person/s anyway).

IMO, Stacy, Suzie and the guest/s would have been drinking earlier at the very least, and perhaps continued the party in Suzie's room. From there I can think of multiple things that went off the rails, though entirely unplanned. Perhaps an expected hook up evaporated and someone reacted to being rejected. Or maybe Stacy or Suzie overdosed (or was believed to have) and someone panicked. If any one of the 3 women were headed to the phone to call for help, that could have sealed the deal. Someone under the influence, who also didn't want police contact might go to extremes. Or, because the hospital was so close and an ambulance wait would be longer...everyone voluntarily loaded into a larger vehicle en route to it. That would explain a sudden departure with no purses or cigarettes. A body carried out while maneuvering through the front door could break the porch light. Once on the road, the women realized they weren't headed to the hospital.

It's entirely possible that even more people showed up and were in the house and everything was fine, at first. The scene was so trampled that prints would not only be everywhere, but probably overlapping and unhelpful, let alone inadmissible. The perp/s could be very well known to all, but LE couldn't exactly print the entire high school student body (or faculty/staff), every family member or friend at the graduation or parties.

The timing makes it seem someone/s was already there at the house with Stacy and Suzie, or was known to be coming. I can see both Stacy and Suzie being comfortable changing into shorts and t-shirts in time to reconvene when the visitors arrived or popping together into the bathroom to change while the others got a movie ready. After the women were gone, perp/s may have come back and done a perfunctory clean up. Cinnamon might lose her mind sensing something wrong, or be underfoot in general and placed in the bathroom.

There is always evidence that hasn't been released, and in this case I'd imagine one or more suspects are still alive and potentially only in their early 50s. Forensic technology progresses every day and I think this can eventually be solved.
i dont believe all 3 women were targets, so why were all 3 taken. its more plausible perp was in the house already when streeter and mccall arrived home.
 
  • #794
Am really intrigued by an overdose theory because jmo it makes a lot of sense. But everything at that house jmo was just too neat. Accidents make mess, fights and panic make mess. They make noise. Everything is too neat, everything too still. Nobody's keys are missing. The scene the perp left behind offers no information. That's not that likely to happen, and jmo there's no way it's an accident. People came over looking for the women in that house and didn't instantly think oh no, this isn't right, or that's off, nobody immediately said there's something really wrong here. I know in hindsight it seems awful that people cleaned up, I think it's telling they cleaned up. They genuinely didn't get any information from that scene and they assumed that probably nothing was seriously wrong. Everything left nice and clean because the perp really wanted to be absolutely sure he got away with it all. A perp who goes back to clean up-- that's jmo the same type of perp, he is going to go the extra mile to preserve himself. And I just don't think that particular type of perp would resort to murder in an overdose scenario. He can probably navigate the situation in a manner posing less risk to his own interests, and in a manner far less (theoretically) brutal.

Something really serious happened at the house that night, and it's been masked, concealed, he made all the evidence disappear just like he made the women disappear. That's why I'm inclined to think he's from out of town. He's a planner, jmo. And he knows it's going to be close to impossible for LE to get him if he's from out of town. His crimes aren't really all that random at all (would bet there's a pattern to them) but his presence at the location is random. With all this said, though, none of these theories can be ruled out. Someone known to them, possible, overdose possible, multiple perps possible... Just putting it out there, I really doubt it's Cox and don't believe the hospital lot story.
janis mccall deleted a message on levitt answering machine. this was possibly a clue, but JM is not into profiling like we are on here. she was not really understanding what was going on. people arrived at levitt house and cleaned up not realising it could be a crime scene,
 
  • #795
Am really intrigued by an overdose theory because jmo it makes a lot of sense. But everything at that house jmo was just too neat. Accidents make mess, fights and panic make mess. They make noise. Everything is too neat, everything too still. Nobody's keys are missing. The scene the perp left behind offers no information. That's not that likely to happen, and jmo there's no way it's an accident. People came over looking for the women in that house and didn't instantly think oh no, this isn't right, or that's off, nobody immediately said there's something really wrong here. I know in hindsight it seems awful that people cleaned up, I think it's telling they cleaned up. They genuinely didn't get any information from that scene and they assumed that probably nothing was seriously wrong. Everything left nice and clean because the perp really wanted to be absolutely sure he got away with it all. A perp who goes back to clean up-- that's jmo the same type of perp, he is going to go the extra mile to preserve himself. And I just don't think that particular type of perp would resort to murder in an overdose scenario. He can probably navigate the situation in a manner posing less risk to his own interests, and in a manner far less (theoretically) brutal.

Something really serious happened at the house that night, and it's been masked, concealed, he made all the evidence disappear just like he made the women disappear. That's why I'm inclined to think he's from out of town. He's a planner, jmo. And he knows it's going to be close to impossible for LE to get him if he's from out of town. His crimes aren't really all that random at all (would bet there's a pattern to them) but his presence at the location is random. With all this said, though, none of these theories can be ruled out. Someone known to them, possible, overdose possible, multiple perps possible... Just putting it out there, I really doubt it's Cox and don't believe the hospital lot story.
cox hospital theory is nuts. no way. cox was working on delmar st prior to girls going missing.
 
  • #796
I'm not convinced it wasn't one or more persons invited to come with the girls, thereby entering the house normally. Sherrill, having fallen asleep on the couch watching tv while her room aired out may or may not have even been awake/introduced (or knew the person/s anyway).

IMO, Stacy, Suzie and the guest/s would have been drinking earlier at the very least, and perhaps continued the party in Suzie's room. From there I can think of multiple things that went off the rails, though entirely unplanned. Perhaps an expected hook up evaporated and someone reacted to being rejected. Or maybe Stacy or Suzie overdosed (or was believed to have) and someone panicked. If any one of the 3 women were headed to the phone to call for help, that could have sealed the deal. Someone under the influence, who also didn't want police contact might go to extremes. Or, because the hospital was so close and an ambulance wait would be longer...everyone voluntarily loaded into a larger vehicle en route to it. That would explain a sudden departure with no purses or cigarettes. A body carried out while maneuvering through the front door could break the porch light. Once on the road, the women realized they weren't headed to the hospital.

It's entirely possible that even more people showed up and were in the house and everything was fine, at first. The scene was so trampled that prints would not only be everywhere, but probably overlapping and unhelpful, let alone inadmissible. The perp/s could be very well known to all, but LE couldn't exactly print the entire high school student body (or faculty/staff), every family member or friend at the graduation or parties.

The timing makes it seem someone/s was already there at the house with Stacy and Suzie, or was known to be coming. I can see both Stacy and Suzie being comfortable changing into shorts and t-shirts in time to reconvene when the visitors arrived or popping together into the bathroom to change while the others got a movie ready. After the women were gone, perp/s may have come back and done a perfunctory clean up. Cinnamon might lose her mind sensing something wrong, or be underfoot in general and placed in the bathroom.

There is always evidence that hasn't been released, and in this case I'd imagine one or more suspects are still alive and potentially only in their early 50s. Forensic technology progresses every day and I think this can eventually be solved.
this was not carried out by someone who was drunk. the girls appear to have been taken out of the house quickly. no time to grab there clothes. no time to grab anything.
 
  • #797
it does not make sense the perp would allow the girls to enter home then he comes knocking. if they locked up it makes it more difficult to gain access.

If they knew this person, they could have opened the blinds (as found in Suzie's bedroom with the TV turned down) and saw who it was. No knock to the front door is necessary. And the perp/s would have never had to have stepped foot inside the house.
 
  • #798
Agreed the prints should be important, but lack of them doesn't mean someone voluntarily opened a door to him, jmo. And if he came in fairly early on, he had plenty of time to make sure he removed prints. He may have also been making efforts to avoid leaving prints in the first place (if intruder, I'd be pretty sure that's true). Also, the crime scene was compromised, undoubtedly destroying prints.

From a July 8th, 1992 Springfield News-Leader article (emphasis mine):

"The investigation is in its second month. The three women, Sherrill Levitt, Suzanne Streeter and Stacy McCall, disappeared June 7. Knowles reported on the investigation during a noon luncheon of the City Council. Knowles told council members:

* The police have found thumbprints and concluded the three women left through the front door rather than through the carport door of Levitt's home. They also have concluded McCall had left barefooted.

* Police believe more than one person participated in the alleged abduction.

Knowles said the disturbance of evidence at Levitt's home hampered the investigation. For example, the women's purses were moved, and witnesses gave conflicting information, he said. Police found 60 fingerprints but established that 18 people were in the house before they had arrived, Knowles said. Now, they have to eliminate the 18 individuals' fingerprints before they can investigate the others, he said."

Three conclusions can be drawn from this:

1. They obviously knew Stacy left barefooted because her shoes were left behind.

2. The purses being lined up in Suzie's room could be a complete red herring and they were moved by the 18 people inside the house.

3. If they found thumbprints and concluded that they left through the front door rather than the carport door, this would suggest to me that Stacy's thumbprint was found on the interior door knob, because you would expect Sherrill and Suzie's prints to be all over that door from living there for two months. Or perhaps a lack of fingerprints found on the carport door led them to believe that no one used that door (which was found locked).
 
  • #799
From a July 8th, 1992 Springfield News-Leader article (emphasis mine):

"The investigation is in its second month. The three women, Sherrill Levitt, Suzanne Streeter and Stacy McCall, disappeared June 7. Knowles reported on the investigation during a noon luncheon of the City Council. Knowles told council members:

* The police have found thumbprints and concluded the three women left through the front door rather than through the carport door of Levitt's home. They also have concluded McCall had left barefooted.

* Police believe more than one person participated in the alleged abduction.

Knowles said the disturbance of evidence at Levitt's home hampered the investigation. For example, the women's purses were moved, and witnesses gave conflicting information, he said. Police found 60 fingerprints but established that 18 people were in the house before they had arrived, Knowles said. Now, they have to eliminate the 18 individuals' fingerprints before they can investigate the others, he said."

Three conclusions can be drawn from this:

1. They obviously knew Stacy left barefooted because her shoes were left behind.

2. The purses being lined up in Suzie's room could be a complete red herring and they were moved by the 18 people inside the house.

3. If they found thumbprints and concluded that they left through the front door rather than the carport door, this would suggest to me that Stacy's thumbprint was found on the interior door knob, because you would expect Sherrill and Suzie's prints to be all over that door from living there for two months. Or perhaps a lack of fingerprints found on the carport door led them to believe that no one used that door (which was found locked).
i wonder how they knew mccall was barefoot when she was taken from house.
 
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