MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #2

[margaret_diane]

Have any of you seen this before?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...etterling+sock+found&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

It seems to outline complaints a therapist made to police regarding strange happenings she experienced while working with cult survivors / members and those who may have been involved in the Wetterling case. I haven't read through this all the way yet (too tired to keep track of it all right now!!).

I'm doubtful that it holds much weight in the case really -- though heaven knows stranger things have happened!!

 

[human]

Have any of you seen this before?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...etterling+sock+found&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

It seems to outline complaints a therapist made to police regarding strange happenings she experienced while working with cult survivors / members and those who may have been involved in the Wetterling case. I haven't read through this all the way yet (too tired to keep track of it all right now!!).

I'm doubtful that it holds much weight in the case really -- though heaven knows stranger things have happened!!

Interesting. I just skimmed it, but I wonder if any of it is true?

 

[concentric]

Maybe some information was found in one of the many (internet or otherwise) international child ring busts that lead back and they had cause to search again.

 

[Dejasade]

Question: would LE and those 2 detectives have to have something 'concrete' in order to be able to search the farm?
In other words, could they go to the judge and say "we think that we should search DR's farm again, b/c we have a hunch?" OR do they need to go to the judge and say, "The reason we want to search DR's farm is because we have specific reason to believe there is evidence there."

 

[Trino]

Yes, and it would seem that DR would have not needed to ask the boys their ages. Trino, given your experience with country living, do you think DR, given his proximity to the Wetterlings, would have already known the boys' ages and names? The perp asking their ages has always mystified me.

And whenever I read about those monks, I feel like a need to take a shower... And I get mighty angry!

I don't know if DR would have been familiar with exact ages, but like any neighbor - city or country - likely he would have had an idea who was older. But, it was dark. DR would have been 33 at the time J disappeared. I doubt a 33 yr old really pays attention to neighbor's ages.

Although St. Joe was a small community and the Wetterlings were neighbors, I haven't heard he interacted with the boys at community events or even as a neighbor. However, as a runner, perhaps he jogged past the Wetterling's house.

J's father fixed on a weird ice arena encounter, but DR did not hang around ice arenas. Surely, he would have been recognized there.

I've always thought the abbey needed further investigation. Where were the "suspicious" monks the night J disappeared? The odd thing about this is there has never been any media attention on any of them. Does religion mean the media thought they were above reproach?

Looking at this logically, would an educated and intelligent person abduct a child at the end of their own driveway with two other witnesses present? Maybe DR is the culprit, and it certainly sounds as though the concentration right now is on him, but IMO there are other possibilities that have not been resolved. If nothing is found at the farm, I hope there's an apology from LE because DR's life is being trashed.

 

[human]

Question: would LE and those 2 detectives have to have something 'concrete' in order to be able to search the farm?
In other words, could they go to the judge and say "we think that we should search DR's farm again, b/c we have a hunch?" OR do they need to go to the judge and say, "The reason we want to search DR's farm is because we have specific reason to believe there is evidence there."

My understanding is that a search warrant cannot be a "fishing expedition". They have to say what they are looking for. I don't know how general it can be.

I can see that they may be looking for bones in the ash pile. But what the other items are, I cannot even guess.

 

[human]

I don't know if DR would have been familiar with exact ages, but like any neighbor - city or country - likely he would have had an idea who was older. But, it was dark. DR would have been 33 at the time J disappeared. I doubt a 33 yr old really pays attention to neighbor's ages.

Although St. Joe was a small community and the Wetterlings were neighbors, I haven't heard he interacted with the boys at community events or even as a neighbor. However, as a runner, perhaps he jogged past the Wetterling's house.

J's father fixed on a weird ice arena encounter, but DR did not hang around ice arenas. Surely, he would have been recognized there.

I've always thought the abbey needed further investigation. Where were the "suspicious" monks the night J disappeared? The odd thing about this is there has never been any media attention on any of them. Does religion mean the media thought they were above reproach?

Looking at this logically, would an educated and intelligent person abduct a child at the end of their own driveway with two other witnesses present? Maybe DR is the culprit, and it certainly sounds as though the concentration right now is on him, but IMO there are other possibilities that have not been resolved. If nothing is found at the farm, I hope there's an apology from LE because DR's life is being trashed.

If he was interested in boys, he would make it a point to find out.

I agree the monks idea is a good one, but wouldn't DR mention that he had company that night?

I live out in the country, but with more trees and houses than that location.

I have noticed on some nights when my neighbors are talking at least 400 feet away, I can hear what they are saying. But, they are adults.

I had some teens walk down the road the other night about 100 feet away, and I could hear them talking a catch a few words.

 

[concentric]

Trino, have you read the Joshua Guimond thread?

 

[human]

Here's some pics of what Jacob was wearing that night.


Wetterling was last seen wearing a a red St. Cloud Hockey jacket with a large St. Cloud Police Department emblem embroidered on the back, an orange reflective jogging vest, a red t-shirt, a blue mesh jersey, blue sweatpants, white socks and white Nike high-top running shoes with a gray stripe



And here's a pic of the blue mesh jersey he was wearing.



The white sock found nearby:
Oct. 28, 1989: About 240 Guard members, volunteers and officers scour several square miles around the abduction site while three helicopters conduct an air search. A white sweat sock is found about 100 yards from the site, but a Minneapolis bloodhound can’t track its scent farther than a nearby road.

I don't know if it was Jacobs or not.

I wish we knew about the sock. But the article talks about the dog tracking the scent. Does that imply it WAS Jacob's?

 

[concentric]

My understanding is that a search warrant cannot be a "fishing expedition". They have to say what they are looking for. I don't know how general it can be.

I can see that they may be looking for bones in the ash pile. But what the other items are, I cannot even guess.

Among other items, a computer maybe?

 

[margaret_diane]

Question: would LE and those 2 detectives have to have something 'concrete' in order to be able to search the farm?
In other words, could they go to the judge and say "we think that we should search DR's farm again, b/c we have a hunch?" OR do they need to go to the judge and say, "The reason we want to search DR's farm is because we have specific reason to believe there is evidence there."

In trying to answer this question, I found the following quotes from an online source (which I provide the link to in the hopes that this will suffice as citing my source). In an effort to make the answer stand out more clearly, I have added blue and bolded text to the most relevant part of the quotes below. I hope this helps.


TAKEN FROM:
http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/search-warrant.html

"A search warrant is a judge signed order that permits the police to search for specific items at a specific place at a specific time."

"When a search warrant is required to search a property, the police must present the judge with probable cause for the search in question. Probable cause is established in numerous ways. When the judge deems a search warrant appropriate, they will validate the search of a specific place, at a certain time, for certain items. As long as the police act in good faith in the supervening search, the evidence and contraband seized will be held admissible in a court of law.".

 

[margaret_diane]

Looking at this logically, would an educated and intelligent person abduct a child at the end of their own driveway with two other witnesses present? Maybe DR is the culprit, and it certainly sounds as though the concentration right now is on him, but IMO there are other possibilities that have not been resolved. If nothing is found at the farm, I hope there's an apology from LE because DR's life is being trashed.

Above quote shortened by me for clarity.

If it wasn't someone the boys might be able to recognize (such as DR or someone else who was local -- then why did the perp go to the trouble to wear a mask (nylon stocking?). Either he was afraid of being recognized, or fearful that potential witnesses might be able to offer police a clear description of him which might get him caught! Example, perhaps he had big scars or pock marks on his face or perhaps his teeth were buck, or maybe he had two eyes different colors -- think of things a mask might signify, and why one might bother to wear one.

Add to this the fact that the perp used some type of gun. I'm unclear whether it was a shotgun, a handgun, or a pistol (such as a starters pistol - the kind a runner might use to start a race or a marathon). Was this guy afraid that the boys might over power him and pin him (boys can be strong at that age, and quick too!). What was the need to use a GUN to persuade the boys to cooperate? I think of lots of other abductions of kids - and can think of no others wherein there was the use of a gun invovled (not saying its never happened, just I'm not aware of any other such cases).

Why was this guy out there, in the dark, dressed in black, carrying a gun and wearing a mask?! What was he afraid of? This speaks to me of premeditation, and opportunity to carry out a planned attack. Someone put a lot of thought into this abduction -- it doesn't seem it happened out of the blue in my view.

Has anyone ever found out where DR's brothers were the night of the attack? This to me is important because without an alibi, to me, they're suspects too!! They know the area, might know the boys a little... they have access to the farm house and the property -- where the heck were THEY that night? There are some media reports which state that a man claiming to be DR's brother had contacted media to tell them police involvement was bordering harrassment, and noting the family upset over the renewed search of the property -- but the man refused to give his name!? Why?!

I'd be checking out the brothers, and their friends too while I was at it if I were LE.

 

[DogScott]

I agree about the brothers, but I am guessing they have been checked out by LE. One currently, lives next door (since early 2000's) and one is a runner and a band teacher (Sound familiar) in a Twin Cities School district. It sounds like they run together quite a lot according to the many online running sites they are on.

One thing that makes me wonder is why does DR still lives at home when there is a brother to help out right next door???

 

[DogScott]

Just a though:

DR races all around the Country (Member of the 50 States Marathon Group- http://www.50anddcmarathongroupusa.com/members.cfm ) which makes me wonder has there been any abductions/child abuse in this cities he has traveled to that are unsolved?

 

[KeyboardCat]

I know its caused a lot of confusion about the man asking their ages.

Its not easy on the stomach to speculate about these things, but I think its possible that after he abducted Jared, he decided he wanted one just a little bit younger. Maybe he was more developed than the abductor anticipated.

I also think Jared was this man's first abduction victim. He seemed to be unsure of whether he could set him free, demanding to know if Jared recognized him repeatedly.
I think he did not want to kill him. Once he had convinced himself that he would not be apprehended, he released him.

I think after Jacob was abducted, he decided he couldn't take that risk once again, especially after two of Jacob's friends were also witnesses.

 

[Lotus]

I also think Jared was this man's first abduction victim. He seemed to be unsure of whether he could set him free, demanding to know if Jared recognized him repeatedly.
I think he did not want to kill him. Once he had convinced himself that he would not be apprehended, he released him.

I think after Jacob was abducted, he decided he couldn't take that risk once again, especially after two of Jacob's friends were also witnesses.

I completely agree that Jared was probably the first child he ever abducted and the abductor of Jacob didn't want to "screw it up" when he abducted Jacob.

Going on,... I think the person who abducted Jacob WAS a neighbor but also a stalker (the incident Jacob's father recalls at the hockey rink comes to mind, also Jared was abducted while leaving a hockey rink near the school in Cold Spring) I think the abductor already knew about Jacob and that he lived nearby and I believe he saw the Wetterling parents leave for the party and took it as an opportunity to spy around their home. As far as asking the ages go, I think the abductor knew that Jacob had a younger brother but he hadn't planned on a friend being along with them and I think he asked the ages to get a better idea of which one was Jacob (it's interesting to note that he let the younger brother go first and took the time to decide which of the other two was Jacob before letting the friend go).

As far as the abductor taking Jacob down that driveway, it just doesn't make any sense to go that way. If it was someone unconnected to the property I could understand using the driveway as a place to wait until the boys came back but in that case I would imagine that Jacobs scent/footprints would have gone in another direction, not down the driveway since there was no car parked down there and really no place to go (except the farm house). Also, if Jacobs remains are found on the property, why would the abductor go back to the scene of the crime to bury him?:waitasec:

Also, the gun that he used was simply a control method (it could have been a toy for all we know) I believe that if the boys would have run away through the field after dropping their bikes, Jacob would still be here but they were unfortunately really caught off guard.

 

[Jade]

respectfully snipped......
Looking at this logically, would an educated and intelligent person abduct a child at the end of their own driveway with two other witnesses present? >>>

Maybe he feels a sense of entitlement as to his territory and what takes
place on it.

DR bragged that he left his home with boxes that the LE didn’t look into.
Implication being that he considers them too dumb to even be looking in
the boxes of a reasonable suspect.

If I am innocent why am I even thinking they didn’t look in the boxes
as I wouldn’t have expected them to having nothing to hide.

It would be the way he views himself that would allow him to
be so brazen.

I don’t know him but he seems to have a position in local society by way of his parents who are respected contributing members.
He lives on a noted farm that is special, the last of it’s kind.
He has a personal running trail connecting to the abbey.

I can’t find the post now but ever since another poster said they thought,
“DR was out perving around” when he spotted the boys on their way to
the store I have thought DR did some peeping and creeping. I think the
accoutrements for abduction were readied and on hand whether for his
routine perving or something more.


All IMO

 

[Lotus]

The man had "previously has given DNA samples, taken a lie-detector test and been hypnotized in connection with" Jacob Wetterling's disappearance, according to an unnamed family member.

I'm curious, has LE verified these claims made by the "unnamed family member"?

 

[Jade]

I know its caused a lot of confusion about the man asking their ages.

Its not easy on the stomach to speculate about these things, but I think its possible that after he abducted Jared, he decided he wanted one just a little bit younger. Maybe he was more developed than the abductor anticipated.
>>>>>Snipped to talk about this point>>

But given the varying development at that age wouldn’t it be prudent to take the youngest rather than risk the older chosen one also being too developed?

Unless as you say he wanted just a bit younger so maybe there is a meaning to the age to the perp >>insert watches too much crime TV>>

If DR is the oldest brother maybe he felt protective of the youngest. Conversely if he were the youngest perhaps he would feel the youngest should get a break.

Aaron thought that it was 50/50 chance of whether it was he or Jacob which leads me to think the perp gave the impression of indecision between the two.

Looking for significance of age in the Catholic religion. Is the Sacrament of Confirmation around age 11?
Does that age put children in a different category maybe the age of reason? Eligible to be an altar boy?

All IMO

 

[Lotus]

I think he wanted Jacob all along, but was confused between him and Aaron. And like I said before he probably knew Jacob had a younger brother and only asked their ages to eliminate the younger brother from the line up more quickly.