No offense against any of the posters here, but I am going with the stories of the witnesses who were there and saw no car, and even DR himself who only heard one car turn around in his driveway that night. jmo
MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #4
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No offense against any of the posters here, but I am going with the stories of the witnesses who were there and saw no car, and even DR himself who only heard one car turn around in his driveway that night. jmo
With so few driveways, I wonder why the perp had no fear that the drive he pulled into was not the home of one of the boys, with a worried parent ready to come down the drive at any second.
Cappucino, I am really confused.
I am thinking that the place you are talking about where the perp would wait was close to the Tom Thumb.
DR's driveway is not the first driveway.
Are you saying that the perp was waiting in the cul de sac road?
This makes no sense to me at all
I am thinking that the place you are talking about where the perp would wait was close to the Tom Thumb.
DR's driveway is not the first driveway.
Are you saying that the perp was waiting in the cul de sac road?
This makes no sense to me at all
A number of posters seem to be under the impression that there was only one vehicle in the vicinity at the time of the abductions and, with the discovery of Kevin and his presence, all indications point to someone who lived in the immediate area doing the abduction on foot. That would tend to point directly at DR.
I am aware of no evidence, indication or any particular reason to believe there was only one vehicle. There was definitely one; Kevin, but why couldn't there have been one parked there earlier at the time of the abduction?
If you look at the town of St Josephs on Google Earth, bearing in mind that the street is a cull de sac then and there are houses there now that were not there then, the scene makes a little more sense. Today, there are 5 houses close to 16th Ave SE that are close to the road and have very short driveways. Any vehicle parked along the road or in any of these driveways would have been visible to anyone in the homes and clearly "out of place" since there would be no reason to park there. When you get to DR's driveway it is different. The driveway is 1/4 mile long and there is a copse of trees separating it from the house. There are no other driveways or houses near there. A vehicle could probably drive up the driveway a 100 ft or so and not be visible from the road and not be readily noticeable from DR's house. Vehicle lights probably would be. I have never been there and have no idea what the exact situation was 20 years ago but I think it is quite likely that DR's driveway was the first suitable place to conceal a car.
I can't claim to understand how a predator might think, but anyone who saw the boy’s ride their bikes up 16th to the store that late at night would assume that they would return in the same direction. If he saw them at the store there were different directions that they may have come from but all, except south on 16th, is essentially developed residential area. He may have gone ahead to the one spot he felt secure as a "lay in wait" site knowing that there was a less than 50/50 chance they would go that way.
I have no idea who abducted Jacob. It may have been someone local or someone who drove down from the Twin Cities. I could have been DR or anyone else in the area. There is simply no basis for naming DR as a "probable" suspect.
I am aware of no evidence, indication or any particular reason to believe there was only one vehicle. There was definitely one; Kevin, but why couldn't there have been one parked there earlier at the time of the abduction?
If you look at the town of St Josephs on Google Earth, bearing in mind that the street is a cull de sac then and there are houses there now that were not there then, the scene makes a little more sense. Today, there are 5 houses close to 16th Ave SE that are close to the road and have very short driveways. Any vehicle parked along the road or in any of these driveways would have been visible to anyone in the homes and clearly "out of place" since there would be no reason to park there. When you get to DR's driveway it is different. The driveway is 1/4 mile long and there is a copse of trees separating it from the house. There are no other driveways or houses near there. A vehicle could probably drive up the driveway a 100 ft or so and not be visible from the road and not be readily noticeable from DR's house. Vehicle lights probably would be. I have never been there and have no idea what the exact situation was 20 years ago but I think it is quite likely that DR's driveway was the first suitable place to conceal a car.
I can't claim to understand how a predator might think, but anyone who saw the boy’s ride their bikes up 16th to the store that late at night would assume that they would return in the same direction. If he saw them at the store there were different directions that they may have come from but all, except south on 16th, is essentially developed residential area. He may have gone ahead to the one spot he felt secure as a "lay in wait" site knowing that there was a less than 50/50 chance they would go that way.
I have no idea who abducted Jacob. It may have been someone local or someone who drove down from the Twin Cities. I could have been DR or anyone else in the area. There is simply no basis for naming DR as a "probable" suspect.
I have been there . Why would a car be parked in DR's driveway in the first place?
I do not understand that at all.
The Wetterlings live on a cul de sac and the kids came down that road, turned, and then went for about a mile to the Tom Thumb. Between the Wetterling's and DR, there is nothing for a long ways. Then after DR's there was nothing for a long ways.
What is the motivation to be in DR's driveway in the first place?
I do not understand that at all.
The Wetterlings live on a cul de sac and the kids came down that road, turned, and then went for about a mile to the Tom Thumb. Between the Wetterling's and DR, there is nothing for a long ways. Then after DR's there was nothing for a long ways.
What is the motivation to be in DR's driveway in the first place?
well it seems that the motivation was to get a boy to rape and possibly kill!
These psychos will travel LONG distances, like when Jaycee Dugard was taken hours from the perps house.
Sometimes they do it in broad daylight, with witnesses........and get away with it......Like with Michaela garrett!
DR seems too easy of a choice and I think LE has spent so much time trying to find a way to make him guilty, they have lost sight of other perps.. He may be guilty as hell, but I dont think so. It would be awfully stupid on his part, and reckless.
These psychos will travel LONG distances, like when Jaycee Dugard was taken hours from the perps house.
Sometimes they do it in broad daylight, with witnesses........and get away with it......Like with Michaela garrett!
DR seems too easy of a choice and I think LE has spent so much time trying to find a way to make him guilty, they have lost sight of other perps.. He may be guilty as hell, but I dont think so. It would be awfully stupid on his part, and reckless.
I suppose, but if it is DR, he has managed to get away with it.
If the motivation is to get a kid, why that late at night on a dirt road on which no one basically lives?
To me it was more of an opportunity by someone who heard the kids while he was outside on a nice night
If the motivation is to get a kid, why that late at night on a dirt road on which no one basically lives?
To me it was more of an opportunity by someone who heard the kids while he was outside on a nice night
BBM. And other times they pick a kid right out of the neighborhood-as in the case of Sandra Cantu.
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I recently had the opportunity to visit the abduction site, and I hope to give thread followers a better “picture” of the area, and clear up some confusion and misconceptions regarding various issues of Jacob’s case. Some have questioned the possibility of a car being involved because Trevor and Aaron have said there was no car. Others have suggested there was no car because the boys did not see a car pass them, despite some simple and logical possibilities posted by Cappuccino, among others.
Here are my observations of the physical environment at the site of Jacob’s abduction:
1. This area is very DARK at night!! I cannot stress this enough. I was there about 10pm at night, last Thursday night. There was ¼ moon, partly cloudy skies, and occasional lightning. There is no yardlight in the DR property driveway. If there is a light near the house, you cannot see it or any indication of a light from the road that goes by the property. Heading south from DR’s property, you can only see a few yardlights in the cul de sacs at the end of the road, about ½ mile away. To the east and west, you can only see the tops of the tree line against the sky. Looking north, there is some light from the city above the tree line. However, the city has grown considerably the past 23 years, so I can only imagine the light from the city was even less visible in 1989. With my headlights off, I could see nothing clearly, only the treelines in some areas. Remember, this was with a partial moon. On the night of the abduction, there was no moon until after 2:00am or so.
2. The surrounding woods are very THICK! Maybe they were not so thick in 1989, but I suspect that they were. The trees are thick as it is, but on top of that there is significant underbrush everywhere you look (I was there in the daytime too!). Before my visit I had designs on walking through some of the woods, but they looked impassable to me in broad daylight, let alone at night.
3. The DR family residence is WELL HIDDEN from view by the trees between the house and the road, 9th / 16th St. The house is not visible from any portion of the street, nor from highway 75 coming in from St Cloud. The only building really visible from any road is a long gray colored barn that runs east and west. From 9th/ 16th, you can only see that barn when you are heading north, toward St Joseph. A driver in a car heading south and turning into the driveway would not see any buildings unless they turned into the driveway and drive almost all the way back. From aerial photos we know there are actually several buildings on the property. Also, I walked by the property twice, and could not see more than 20’ through the dense woods, and the woods are at least 100’ deep.
4. I don’t believe this has been mentioned before, but there is a fairly steep hill that begins climbing at about E. Baker St, and rises about 20’ or so as you drive south. You cannot see any hint of the DR property or trees on your left until you’re about 200’ or so from the property. The DR property is on your left after you climb the hill. Judging from the appearance of homes in the area, I would guess there was very little development south of E. Baker St in 1989. I’m not sure E. Baker St actually existed at the time (maybe a local could confirm this?). It is quite possible, even likely, that the abductor(s) were watching the streets near the Tom Thumb, and would have seen Jacob, Trevor, and Aaron come from the south. And in turn, knowing they were likely to go back they way.
5. From the DR property vantage point, there appears to be good visibility toward the cul de sacs to the south, but ONLY if a person were standing on the east, south, or west sides of the woods surrounding the DR home. There could be no visibility from the house itself to the road or cul de sacs, whether day or night. Depending on what crops were in the field directly south of the DR property, a person may be able to have relatively good view of flashlights moving northward on 9th / 16th. If the crop was corn, and the corn was not yet harvested, visibility would be limited. If the crop was other than corn, or was harvested corn, visibility from that vantage point would be relatively unobstructed. Visibility would be limited only by the strength and distance of the light.
6. There are a number of factors that make it difficult to believe the abductor could have been on foot, by anyone other than a neighbor. First, the nearest highway to the north is about 1 mile away. While the terrain appears to be passable on foot today, the abductor would have been walking toward the city of St Joseph, or highway 75, dragging an 11 year old child. Doesn’t seem like a smart thing for an abductor to do. To the east, there is the Sauk River, which cannot be crossed or navigated without a watercraft. To the south, the nearest road is about 1 ½ mile away, likely a ½ hour or longer trek through fields and woods. To the west, the nearest road is also about a mile away, again with fields and woods in the way. Also, we know that dogs tracked Jacob’s scent only a short distance up the DR driveway, and there the scent disappeared. Had the abductor been on foot, surely Jacob’s scent would have been picked up elsewhere. And lastly, if the abductor had been of foot, with the rough terrain and woods, there would have no doubt been a piece of clothing caught in brush or branches somewhere.
All of the above are based on my observations, and are my opinion only. Thanks for reading. Next, I’ll post what I heard from a few locals.
Here are my observations of the physical environment at the site of Jacob’s abduction:
1. This area is very DARK at night!! I cannot stress this enough. I was there about 10pm at night, last Thursday night. There was ¼ moon, partly cloudy skies, and occasional lightning. There is no yardlight in the DR property driveway. If there is a light near the house, you cannot see it or any indication of a light from the road that goes by the property. Heading south from DR’s property, you can only see a few yardlights in the cul de sacs at the end of the road, about ½ mile away. To the east and west, you can only see the tops of the tree line against the sky. Looking north, there is some light from the city above the tree line. However, the city has grown considerably the past 23 years, so I can only imagine the light from the city was even less visible in 1989. With my headlights off, I could see nothing clearly, only the treelines in some areas. Remember, this was with a partial moon. On the night of the abduction, there was no moon until after 2:00am or so.
2. The surrounding woods are very THICK! Maybe they were not so thick in 1989, but I suspect that they were. The trees are thick as it is, but on top of that there is significant underbrush everywhere you look (I was there in the daytime too!). Before my visit I had designs on walking through some of the woods, but they looked impassable to me in broad daylight, let alone at night.
3. The DR family residence is WELL HIDDEN from view by the trees between the house and the road, 9th / 16th St. The house is not visible from any portion of the street, nor from highway 75 coming in from St Cloud. The only building really visible from any road is a long gray colored barn that runs east and west. From 9th/ 16th, you can only see that barn when you are heading north, toward St Joseph. A driver in a car heading south and turning into the driveway would not see any buildings unless they turned into the driveway and drive almost all the way back. From aerial photos we know there are actually several buildings on the property. Also, I walked by the property twice, and could not see more than 20’ through the dense woods, and the woods are at least 100’ deep.
4. I don’t believe this has been mentioned before, but there is a fairly steep hill that begins climbing at about E. Baker St, and rises about 20’ or so as you drive south. You cannot see any hint of the DR property or trees on your left until you’re about 200’ or so from the property. The DR property is on your left after you climb the hill. Judging from the appearance of homes in the area, I would guess there was very little development south of E. Baker St in 1989. I’m not sure E. Baker St actually existed at the time (maybe a local could confirm this?). It is quite possible, even likely, that the abductor(s) were watching the streets near the Tom Thumb, and would have seen Jacob, Trevor, and Aaron come from the south. And in turn, knowing they were likely to go back they way.
5. From the DR property vantage point, there appears to be good visibility toward the cul de sacs to the south, but ONLY if a person were standing on the east, south, or west sides of the woods surrounding the DR home. There could be no visibility from the house itself to the road or cul de sacs, whether day or night. Depending on what crops were in the field directly south of the DR property, a person may be able to have relatively good view of flashlights moving northward on 9th / 16th. If the crop was corn, and the corn was not yet harvested, visibility would be limited. If the crop was other than corn, or was harvested corn, visibility from that vantage point would be relatively unobstructed. Visibility would be limited only by the strength and distance of the light.
6. There are a number of factors that make it difficult to believe the abductor could have been on foot, by anyone other than a neighbor. First, the nearest highway to the north is about 1 mile away. While the terrain appears to be passable on foot today, the abductor would have been walking toward the city of St Joseph, or highway 75, dragging an 11 year old child. Doesn’t seem like a smart thing for an abductor to do. To the east, there is the Sauk River, which cannot be crossed or navigated without a watercraft. To the south, the nearest road is about 1 ½ mile away, likely a ½ hour or longer trek through fields and woods. To the west, the nearest road is also about a mile away, again with fields and woods in the way. Also, we know that dogs tracked Jacob’s scent only a short distance up the DR driveway, and there the scent disappeared. Had the abductor been on foot, surely Jacob’s scent would have been picked up elsewhere. And lastly, if the abductor had been of foot, with the rough terrain and woods, there would have no doubt been a piece of clothing caught in brush or branches somewhere.
All of the above are based on my observations, and are my opinion only. Thanks for reading. Next, I’ll post what I heard from a few locals.
KeepHopeAlive
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I personally feel that while many people see DR as the obvious suspect (and, yes, I do understand why), there is no evidence to connect him to any crime. Until then, all possibilities should be considered. The abductor could have been a local who was on foot, but a vehicle could have been involved as well. Neither scenario is impossible. Yes, there were witnesses, but witnesses can't be expected to see or remember everything.
I do not think Baker Street existed back then. I think there is a reference to that on here somewhere.
Sound carries, so if a neighbor was outside that night, he would hear the children.
The darkness would have been far more intense because most of the development of the area and St. Cloud did not exist back then.
Seriously, the farm was dug up. Minnesota had no money. There had to be something pretty solid for that to happen. That had to cost huge money. Maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Sure, we want to think that crime is taken care of as a priority, but don't forget all of the states that are letting criminals out way early because there is no money.
Sound carries, so if a neighbor was outside that night, he would hear the children.
The darkness would have been far more intense because most of the development of the area and St. Cloud did not exist back then.
Seriously, the farm was dug up. Minnesota had no money. There had to be something pretty solid for that to happen. That had to cost huge money. Maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Sure, we want to think that crime is taken care of as a priority, but don't forget all of the states that are letting criminals out way early because there is no money.
KeepHopeAlive
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Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they looked into it, but no evidence turned up. What did they have?
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/09/28/wetterling-no-break/
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/09/28/wetterling-no-break/
exactly. What did they have in order to get a sealed warrant?
They are saving things for the future when technology may advance.
Just like technology advanced so DNA could be used. So anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's.
There is no way that there was not some info because I do not believe for one minute a judge would sign off on something so expensive and invasive if there was not some info there to go on. It wasn't someone's gut feelings
They are saving things for the future when technology may advance.
Just like technology advanced so DNA could be used. So anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's.
There is no way that there was not some info because I do not believe for one minute a judge would sign off on something so expensive and invasive if there was not some info there to go on. It wasn't someone's gut feelings
This is kind of long, and from February, 2011, so not new. Still, I think it contains some info that seems relevant to the present discussion, so it might be worth a read for anyone who feels up for it.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/28/ng.01.html
I bet one thing we could all agree on is that Patty Wetterling is an absolutely amazing person!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/28/ng.01.html
I bet one thing we could all agree on is that Patty Wetterling is an absolutely amazing person!
Interesting word choice by Mark Klaas in that transcript.. (BBM)
"MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think this case has maintained its national significance for one reason, and that`s Patty Wetterling. I`ve known Patty for years and years. I`ve always admired her greatly. In fact, I`ve always looked upon Patty as a mentor of mine. I don`t believe that you can come up with more of a nightmarish situation or scenario than the scenario that these three boys found themselves in.
I think the mistake they made was stopping. If they had kept running, at that point, when this guy came out, this probably would have ended very differently. Of course, that`s all in hindsight, but I believe -- and that`s what I would counsel children. Never go with the suspect. Always put distance between yourself and the suspect as quickly as you possibly can."
It sounds as if he feels this guy "came out" of that driveway. ITA on it could have been DR who lived there, or it could have been someone else. But as stated above, LE has to have some info they have never revealed on why DR is still a POI after all these years. Maybe they just feel he knew who the person was, if it wasn't him?
I've always wondered if perhaps he had a friend over, seeing as his parents were gone to Europe and he had the house all to himself. Maybe a buddy who he ran with, or someone who he taught with - either at Cold Spring or St. John's.
I agree, ShyViolet, that Patty Wetterling is an amazing person. I really wish their family could get some answers on what happened to Jacob.
"MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think this case has maintained its national significance for one reason, and that`s Patty Wetterling. I`ve known Patty for years and years. I`ve always admired her greatly. In fact, I`ve always looked upon Patty as a mentor of mine. I don`t believe that you can come up with more of a nightmarish situation or scenario than the scenario that these three boys found themselves in.
I think the mistake they made was stopping. If they had kept running, at that point, when this guy came out, this probably would have ended very differently. Of course, that`s all in hindsight, but I believe -- and that`s what I would counsel children. Never go with the suspect. Always put distance between yourself and the suspect as quickly as you possibly can."
It sounds as if he feels this guy "came out" of that driveway. ITA on it could have been DR who lived there, or it could have been someone else. But as stated above, LE has to have some info they have never revealed on why DR is still a POI after all these years. Maybe they just feel he knew who the person was, if it wasn't him?
I've always wondered if perhaps he had a friend over, seeing as his parents were gone to Europe and he had the house all to himself. Maybe a buddy who he ran with, or someone who he taught with - either at Cold Spring or St. John's.
I agree, ShyViolet, that Patty Wetterling is an amazing person. I really wish their family could get some answers on what happened to Jacob.
So you are saying these pychos with travel great distances and/or do it in broad daylight and get away with it.... but that DR couldn't have done it? Why? Because he *seems* really educated and level headed? Lots of people don't seem like *psychos* on the outside....and I don't think you have to be psycho to commit a crime like this. Just a pedophile who doesn't want to get caught.
It seems like a big coincidence that a boy was kidnapped and assaulted in CS near where DR works, and the assailant asked the boy (who went to that school) if he recognized him, then a boy is kidnapped at the edge of DR's driveway while his parents are in Europe, and it seemed as though the assailant in that case was looking for Jacob in particular. DR sure is unlucky if he's not guilty. JMO
I didn't say DR didn't do it, and I didn't say he couldn't do it. Does it seem likely? NO! But stranger things have happened.
Actually after a few comments back I am starting to wonder if maybe he had a "friend" over, that was looking for a boy.......so he grabbed Jacob and took off while DR made his phone call. It seems that the police were not out chasing down a suspected car, so this person could have taken him to a "safe" place, and DR joined him the next day.
We can all sit here and make up likely scenarios....... Doesn't mean they are true though! And with no evidence, even with today's technologies and DNA analysis......DR is a free man. At this point we have to say he is innocent!
and here is another scenario.....Maybe someone didn't like DR. So they kidnapped his neighbor and were trying to pin it on him, but because of the police presence were never able to plant evidence. Now they sit satisfied with the fact they ruined his life.
and I believe that Psychos can act normal, and DR is a little off from Normal. Ted Bundy was working as an adviser to the Governor of Washington at one time, so yes a psycho can appear normal.
Making up scenarios that DR is guilty doesn't make him guilty. after that big dig at his house, a polygraph, DNA samples and hours up on hours of interrogation, the cops have nothing on him.
So maybe its time to start looking at each and every sex offender that lived near by at the time.
Actually after a few comments back I am starting to wonder if maybe he had a "friend" over, that was looking for a boy.......so he grabbed Jacob and took off while DR made his phone call. It seems that the police were not out chasing down a suspected car, so this person could have taken him to a "safe" place, and DR joined him the next day.
We can all sit here and make up likely scenarios....... Doesn't mean they are true though! And with no evidence, even with today's technologies and DNA analysis......DR is a free man. At this point we have to say he is innocent!
and here is another scenario.....Maybe someone didn't like DR. So they kidnapped his neighbor and were trying to pin it on him, but because of the police presence were never able to plant evidence. Now they sit satisfied with the fact they ruined his life.
and I believe that Psychos can act normal, and DR is a little off from Normal. Ted Bundy was working as an adviser to the Governor of Washington at one time, so yes a psycho can appear normal.
Making up scenarios that DR is guilty doesn't make him guilty. after that big dig at his house, a polygraph, DNA samples and hours up on hours of interrogation, the cops have nothing on him.
So maybe its time to start looking at each and every sex offender that lived near by at the time.
amber1
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@ Leprikawn:
I definitely agree with you! Psychos can definitely appear normal-in fact, majority of serial killers seem like every day people-look at Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway.
I have always believed Jacob is still alive. That is my gut feeling. He could also be pretty much anywhere in the world right now.
I definitely agree with you! Psychos can definitely appear normal-in fact, majority of serial killers seem like every day people-look at Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway.
I have always believed Jacob is still alive. That is my gut feeling. He could also be pretty much anywhere in the world right now.
KeepHopeAlive
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This my hope as well (as I'm sure it is for everyone). As far as we know, there is nothing to prove otherwise.
Jbrown324320
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wow. http://drphil.com/shows/show/1880/
Dr Phil has two guests on today who were child prostitutes who were used by J Sandusky and Ed Savitz. They say that the men were part of a "child sex ring" and abused many children. They would have parties with many kids at numerous different cities. What if Sandusky and his co-horts took Jacob when Penn State football was playing St John's? Or what if they paid someone to grab Jacob to use for a "party"?
This makes me ill.
Dr Phil has two guests on today who were child prostitutes who were used by J Sandusky and Ed Savitz. They say that the men were part of a "child sex ring" and abused many children. They would have parties with many kids at numerous different cities. What if Sandusky and his co-horts took Jacob when Penn State football was playing St John's? Or what if they paid someone to grab Jacob to use for a "party"?
This makes me ill.
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