MN - Justine Damond, 40, fatally shot by Minneapolis LE, 15 July 2017 #1

[DatelineFan]

I am not sure if it is true that the majority of police shootings are not gang related or in gang territory. Links?

You're the one who asserted this in the first place. If you don't know if it's true, why are you saying so? Are you serious? I follow these cases very closely and I cannot remember the last time gangs were involved.

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[katydid23]

That's not the same standard we apply to civilians who kill others. They have to defend their claims of self defense. The same standard should apply to those in law enforcement. If they claim self defense, they should offer some proof or compelling evidence they had reason to be fearful.

The day we start applying more lenient standards for accountability to law enforcement as we do to innocent citizens is the day we skew the balance of power in a democratic society.

But being in law enforcement is a whole different situation that an average citizen. The Self Defense claim is built into the situation because they are considered adversaries to some of the people they have to engage.

When they make a traffic stop on you, there is no real danger. You might be annoyed about a possible ticket, but not enough to pull out a weapon and shoot. But every once in awhile they are going to pull over a car where , unbeknownst to the officer, the driver is running from a murder, or has open felony warrants which would send him to prison, etc...

So in those cases, the officer is automatically an enemy of the person he is engaging with. So self defense is automatic. When you or I see someone we are talking to reach into their waistband, it is meaningless to us. But to a police officer, that has asked the citizen for their ID, it could easily mean life or death if they ignore that action.

So we cannot expect LE to go by the same rules of engagement that we have. They are expected to engage others, detain them, arrest them. We put them into adversarial situations. So we should back them up when it goes sideways, imo.

 

[LietKynes]

Really should not even go down this road but have you seen the dash cam video of Castilles death? Yanez (officer that shot him) is clearly out of control, he is in a complete panic when he fires his weapon. In his own words he had tunnel vision and did not hear Castile saying he wasn't reaching for the gun. It's a wrongful death no doubt, and Yanez has the wrong temperament for a cop, but IMHO there is little debate that Yanez felt threatened. He FREAKS.

I hope we can get some video or audio of this shooting so we can stop debating hypotheticals....

SABBM

No dash cam, it's been said the body cams were turned off.

Is there "...something in the water" in Minnesota ? Is it like the 'wild west' there ? (We live elsewhere) It's been said that Alaska (no offense to Alaskanites ) is largely unpoliced in some areas due to its' size.
Found that out whilst reading up on the case of Israel Keyes.

Btw, to any and all LE who may wander over to look at this forum.... the body cams/dash cams are for YOUR PROTECTION ; as well as the safety of the public.
You (LE) are foolish to knowingly disable them !!

Certainly you can understand that. Turning them off makes it look like you (police) have something to hide.

My .02.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

fftopic:
sorry to butt in, but I can't find a thread about the R Kelly "hostage" situation, thought it would be a hot topic, no?

 

[katydid23]

You're the one who asserted this in the first place. If you don't know if it's true, why are you saying so? Are you serious? I follow these cases very closely and I cannot remember the last time gangs were involved.

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I think you are misconstruing what I said. We should agree to disagree.

 

[DatelineFan]

I think you are misconstruing what I said. We should agree to disagree.

That's fine. I'm just wondering what the last police shooting was when they were in gang territory. If that's common surely you have an example?

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[katydid23]

When I worked with adolescents who were locked in a facility, we didn't have guns (much like officers in other countries), we went through extensive training on how to de-escalate and safely physically restrain them. This is what trained professionals do.

I work with some European people, and they describe their officers not carrying guns and using their training and not just shooting people to death the second they feel afraid.

I do think there are times when it's necessary to shoot though.

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I am assuming the adolescents you worked with were not armed and were not high on meth or bath salts at the time you engaged with them.

Once a 6ft4 inch 300 lb angry citizen shoves you into your car and punches you in the face repeatedly, what does your training say about de-escalation?

 

[Elley Mae]

That is why I think this officer will be charged with a criminal act. There was nothing [from what little we know so far] to make him think his life was in danger.

Yes, I too feel he will be charged.

 

[DatelineFan]

Back to the topic... I really hope there's more information than we know. And I hope there's justice for Ms. Ruszcyck. I wish justice could bring her back.

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[bluesneakers]

Others have gotten away with it. They just made up reasons.

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And that's why it takes a day or two before we hear a story (although we can usually predict what the story will be). They have to figure out what the story is before they share it.

 

[katydid23]

That's fine. I'm just wondering what the last police shooting was when they were in gang territory. If that's common surely you have an example?

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Akiel Denkins, 24
A North Carolina prosecutor concluded that a white officer acted in self-defense when he shot a black man in Raleigh. Police have said Denkins pulled out a gun and reached for Officer D.C. Twiddy’s weapon before the officer shot and killed him earlier this year. Twiddy was trying to arrest Denkins in late February 2016*after he failed to appear in court on felony charges related to selling cocaine.

Only hours after a police officer shot Akiel Denkins, pictures began to circulate showing the 24-year-old man flashing gang signs in his Bragg Street neighborhood, wearing the red bandana that is the trademark of the Bloods. Denkins’ criminal record spilled out next, showing a history with drugs and run-ins with police.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/crime/article64284382.html#storylink=cpy



Ezell Ford, 25
Ezell Ford, a 25-year-old black man, was shot after two Los Angeles Police Department officers stopped him on a sidewalk in South L.A.*The*shooting came only days after the fatal shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., and set off a series of protests throughout L.A. County.*
On Aug. 11, 2014, two*gang unit officers conducted an investigative stop after seeing Ford*on*65th Street. Police say that when the officials got out of their vehicle and walked toward Ford, he tried to attack the lead officer. After a struggle, the lead officer’s partner shot Ford, who later died at a hospital.
Community members questioned the police account, saying Ford was mentally ill and was*complying with officers before he was shot. In June 2015, the L.A. Police Commission faulted*Officer Sharlton Wampler*and his partner, Antonio Villegas,*for how they approached Ford in the moments that led to the shooting.


Here are two example from last year.

I am not going to get in a long, contentious argument so this is the end of this particular exchange.

 

[human]

SABBM

No dash cam, it's been said the body cams were turned off.

Is there "...something in the water" in Minnesota ? Is it like the 'wild west' there ? (We live elsewhere) It's been said that Alaska (no offense to Alaskanites ) is largely unpoliced in some areas due to its' size.
Found that out whilst reading up on the case of Israel Keyes.

Btw, to any and all LE who may wander over to look at this forum.... the body cams/dash cams are for YOUR PROTECTION ; as well as the safety of the public.
You (LE) are foolish to knowingly disable them !!

Certainly you can understand that. Turning them off makes it look like you (police) have something to hide.

My .02.

As a Minnesotan, I have to say I am astounded. The neighborhoods that Castile and Justine got killed in are nice residential areas.

Minnesota has many Fortune 500 companies and is pretty much free of political scandal. The test scores of students are among the highest in the nation,

Crime is relatively low but seems to have increased with deadly results .

It was not that long ago that a person needed a reason to have a concealed weapon,

On the flip side, there is a problem with graduation rates and students of color. I am not that sure it is being addressed that well.

Minnesotans are considered "nice" , but many POC see it as passive aggressive.

A few years ago, the Drug Task Force was disbanded because it was filled with corruption, Task force members were stealing a lot.

Minnesota has been a blue State for a long time.

 

[RandomName479]

When I worked with adolescents who were locked in a facility, we didn't have guns (much like officers in other countries), we went through extensive training on how to de-escalate and safely physically restrain them. This is what trained professionals do.

I work with some European people, and they describe their officers not carrying guns and using their training and not just shooting people to death the second they feel afraid.

I do think there are times when it's necessary to shoot though.

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I agree with much of what you have said.......de-escalation using words and/or non-lethal force is very effective in many countries......the main difference I see in Europe vs. the US is that the average citizen/even criminal doesn't have a GUN in Europe......in the US the police have come to expect bascially everyone to be carrying and are likely trigger happy because of it....MOO

 

[DatelineFan]

I agree with much of what you have said.......de-escalation using words and/or non-lethal force is very effective in many countries......the main difference I see in Europe vs. the US is that the average citizen/even criminal doesn't have a GUN in Europe......in the US the police have come to expect bascially everyone to be carrying and are likely trigger happy because of it....MOO

This is absolutely a valid point. I should have addressed this. I still do not believe the majority of police shootings are necessary.

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[human]

SABBM

Esp. that bolded bit.

Without knowing more about this tragic case; I'm thinking this Noor would be better working in a non-excitable environment like a factory welder or electrician !

This person should probably quit and find employment better suited to his personality.
If she was standing there, talking to a cop ---that is generally standard procedure after calling in a 911 for an assault--- you speak to the police and let them know what you heard, saw, etc.

There are people working in various occupations from law enforcement to day care institutions who SHOULD NOT be working in those fields !

My adult child has an acquaintance whose mother works in a day care ; and I've never met such a cold, bitter person. She gives people the creeps. And yet the day care she works for continues to employ her --despite numerous complaints.
The things she said at a friend's child's wedding last summer, about what she thinks of children. My god.

If you cannot or are incapable of doing your job correctly-- find work elsewhere. It's not that difficult.
Noor needs to resign and get a job somewhere else-- possibly janitorial or factory work -- where he wouldn't be armed, and would possibly be able to work alone. No interaction with others.
:moo:

I am not defending him, but he has a college degree so before going into being a cop, he could have chosen the business world.

 

[Dogface]

I just thought I would post this as it's interesting to look at what cops are more likely to use force.

(I hope this site doesn't have a political affiliation, and if it does I apologize in advance) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/




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[DatelineFan]

Dogface, my bad, in my post I didn't realize who I was quoting, so just recognizing I know you didn't bring up the topic.

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[jjenny]

But there has to be more than just something in someones hand.

In other cases where cops mistook a cell for a gun, they were trying to detain or arrest a fleeing suspect, who would turn towards them, holding a metallic object...in a case like that, it is more understandable.

But this woman was not a fleeing suspect, was not an adversary, etc.

Well, obviously, if police were allowed to shoot people because these people were holding something in their hand, a lot of people could be dead.
However, they haven't even released the police officer's story to this day. And if there was something that could at least suggest some justification, I presume that would have done it already. There appears to be no reason whatsoever as to why he shot and killed this woman, and police hasn't even provided any information as to why he did it. So I think if he were to claim that he believed her cell phone was a gun is something that would make some sense (not that it would justify what he did).

 

[Elley Mae]

Noor, who joined the Minneapolis Police in March 2015, has had three complaints made against him in two years - including a lawsuit.

Two are from 2017 and one from 2016 is closed and according to Lou Raguse of Kare 11 is marked 'not to be made public'.

The lawsuit stems from a police call on May 25, 2017, when Noor and two other officers took a woman to hospital and she claimed that they carried out false imprisonment, assault and battery.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4703892/Police-officer-shot-Justine-Damond-identified.html

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I can't believe this! So angry. Cop sounds like a bad egg who should have been removed from active duty before this. Do we think he'll be charged or will everyone just make excuses and brush this under rug?