MN - Philando Castile, 32, shot by police officer, 6 July 2016 #1

[Cobra Jet]

IMO, this is all coming about because more and more people are capturing interactions with the police on video. In the past when things went wrong, we would tend to take the officers word for how things went down. Now we see things with our own eyes and are starting to ask if the officer could have handled things better at minimum all the way to asking if their action are criminal. For my part I want the shooting of a suspect to be a last resort not a first choice. To me it needs to rise to a very high level for an officer to take a life and not just that the suspect twitched or looked like he was going for something. I don’t want my wife or son to be killed in a minor traffic stop because a police officer got scared and mistook their actions as a threat.


Police officers have a very dangerous job. I understand that and I have immense respect for anyone that is willing to put their life on the line to protect us. With that said, I feel that they should be held accountable when they make a serious mistake that ends someone’s life. Every one of us is held accountable in our jobs if we do something seriously wrong. To me when an officer kills someone who is posing little or no threat to them they failed to do their job. I realize that we don’t have all the facts in the case yet but from what I understand the victim did not grab his gun and start to raise it up towards the officer. If that is proven to be true, then getting shot because you look similar to a suspect, have a gun and may be reaching near it is not enough for me. The officer already had his gun drawn and could have fired if Mr. Castile made a real attempt to draw his weapon on the officer. Now I know that is easy for me to say sitting here at my computer, but that’s just how I feel

 

[animlzrule]

Will it ever be OK to resist arrest or attack a cop? Their has to be some recourse for the officer, not just to take it and hope it works out OK.
There are two sides to this story. And this is the main reason grand juries nor the justice dept usually don't bring charges against the officers.
All MOO only

No, of course it's not ok to resist arrest. But one of the issues is interpretations about just what constitutes resistance. Should mouthing off to an officer warrant a shooting? Should following an officer's instructions warrant a shooting? Should physical altercation without a weapon warrant a shooting? Should a person who is stopped by police for an imagined infraction wind up with his spine snapped, with no legal ramifications? What happened to the use of tear gas, tasers, rubber bullets, heck even negotiation and level headedness? I read twitter feeds over the weekend of a couple of ex military combat vets who were saying they follow a much more rigorous code of escalation before killing an enemy in battle, than do the police! Clearly, something has gone amiss with LE training and crisis intervention. And the choice of force becomes easier for an LE when they know that ultimately there is very little chance they are going to be held responsible for their actions, justified or otherwise. I don't condone the violence, or violent rhetoric being used on both sides. But, I can certainly understand the frustration and demands for change by POC, in light of statistical evidence and recent shootings. LE has had a voice for all of time, and have traditionally been reflexively supported and automatically given the benefit of the doubt. The infallibility of the police, in other words, has been the prevailing narrative. I think that's changing now. And years of neglect of minority concerns when it comes to policing are now culminating in the mess we are seeing today. One thing that definitely needs to happen is that investigations of police shootings need to be done by a diverse board of professionals independent of the department, and built not exclusively of members of LE. I just pray my child never goes in to LE, and I'm even more grateful for my lot in life. I was born into circumstances which will virtually guarantee my fair treatment by LE. For so many, this is not the case.

 

[rob]

In the LA case, the man was resisting and did have a gun. It was the reason LE was called in the first place. In this case, I'm not sure what happened. The one thing that makes me question most is the first statement by the girlfriend, she stated repeatedly that the gun he had was legal. And her story evolves as she tells. that doesn't mean to me that she is lying, but the truth is usually the easiest story to tell.
I do feel in many cases LE has to just handcuff people until they understand exactly what is going on, to keep themselves and others safe. Many times there are many grouped up, yelling, all trying to tell their story at the same time. There has to be some degree of control.

In the Michael Brown case, the DOJ chose not to bring charges, and I would think if in anyway possible, they would have. In the Gray case, if someone did do something to him, there is just no evidence, other than the outcome, as to who did what. I didn't think if would be correct to hang all 6 for what maybe one did. And I also believe that if all six had not been charged and so quickly at that, if any of the five knew what one did, they would have come forward. But once your life is on the line?????

I do not wish for anyone to die, especially after a minimal stop by LE, and that includes the officer.
And I have no respect for anyone calling for violence, or violence against LE.
All MOO

 

[Trino]

IMO police began to change their mentality toward civilians when the US Government began giving them surplus military weapons, the 1208/1033 program. Somehow, many police with the advanced weapons got the idea they were para-military. Hard to believe, but twenty school systems actually received military grade surplus equipment.

A good read...
http://www.wow.com/wiki/1033_program#1990-2014

 

[human]

People are giving lip service to LE, but what are citizens actually willing to do? More taxes so there can be more LE so that they have more time off between shifts? More money so LE can spend some fun times with citizens on their paid shifts?More training more often? Paid time at the end of a shift for yoga, massage,? Some change in gun laws? What will citizens be willing to do for those that put their life on the line?

 

[DatelineFan]

Shooting someone for resisting arrest? That has been the recourse for many decades. How is that working for everyone?

Resisting arrest has always been there imo and always will be - we're talking about people not sheep. Also imo, grand juries and others have been wrong not to bring charges for shooting someone for resisting arrest or other similar reasons - what would things be like today if officers were in fact held to a higher standard?

LE is responsible for the relationship LE has with various members of the public. They can't blame that on anyone else. Jmo.

EXACTLY! Resisting arrest isn't the right thing to do, but it's not punishable by DEATH. Especially without a trial. Due process is important.

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[DatelineFan]

No, of course it's not ok to resist arrest. But one of the issues is interpretations about just what constitutes resistance. Should mouthing off to an officer warrant a shooting? Should following an officer's instructions warrant a shooting? Should physical altercation without a weapon warrant a shooting? Should a person who is stopped by police for an imagined infraction wind up with his spine snapped, with no legal ramifications? What happened to the use of tear gas, tasers, rubber bullets, heck even negotiation and level headedness? I read twitter feeds over the weekend of a couple of ex military combat vets who were saying they follow a much more rigorous code of escalation before killing an enemy in battle, than do the police! Clearly, something has gone amiss with LE training and crisis intervention. And the choice of force becomes easier for an LE when they know that ultimately there is very little chance they are going to be held responsible for their actions, justified or otherwise. I don't condone the violence, or violent rhetoric being used on both sides. But, I can certainly understand the frustration and demands for change by POC, in light of statistical evidence and recent shootings. LE has had a voice for all of time, and have traditionally been reflexively supported and automatically given the benefit of the doubt. The infallibility of the police, in other words, has been the prevailing narrative. I think that's changing now. And years of neglect of minority concerns when it comes to policing are now culminating in the mess we are seeing today. One thing that definitely needs to happen is that investigations of police shootings need to be done by a diverse board of professionals independent of the department, and built not exclusively of members of LE. I just pray my child never goes in to LE, and I'm even more grateful for my lot in life. I was born into circumstances which will virtually guarantee my fair treatment by LE. For so many, this is not the case.

Beautiful post!

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[rosemadderlake]

No, of course it's not ok to resist arrest. But one of the issues is interpretations about just what constitutes resistance. Should mouthing off to an officer warrant a shooting? Should following an officer's instructions warrant a shooting? Should physical altercation without a weapon warrant a shooting? Should a person who is stopped by police for an imagined infraction wind up with his spine snapped, with no legal ramifications? What happened to the use of tear gas, tasers, rubber bullets, heck even negotiation and level headedness? I read twitter feeds over the weekend of a couple of ex military combat vets who were saying they follow a much more rigorous code of escalation before killing an enemy in battle, than do the police! Clearly, something has gone amiss with LE training and crisis intervention. And the choice of force becomes easier for an LE when they know that ultimately there is very little chance they are going to be held responsible for their actions, justified or otherwise. I don't condone the violence, or violent rhetoric being used on both sides. But, I can certainly understand the frustration and demands for change by POC, in light of statistical evidence and recent shootings. LE has had a voice for all of time, and have traditionally been reflexively supported and automatically given the benefit of the doubt. The infallibility of the police, in other words, has been the prevailing narrative. I think that's changing now. And years of neglect of minority concerns when it comes to policing are now culminating in the mess we are seeing today. One thing that definitely needs to happen is that investigations of police shootings need to be done by a diverse board of professionals independent of the department, and built not exclusively of members of LE. I just pray my child never goes in to LE, and I'm even more grateful for my lot in life. I was born into circumstances which will virtually guarantee my fair treatment by LE. For so many, this is not the case.

^^^These are all great points ^^^ and as horrified and heartbroken as I am about Dallas and Baton Rouge, I found myself reading about and refreshing my memory on the protests against brutality in the 70's. Because there are parallels to the issues then and now, but I think one major difference today is everyone is armed now which is perhaps a reason for the reflexes on the trigger? -To witness Philandro's death for a traffic stop is the metaphor for a much larger picture. Imo.

BBM: Yes, for civilians it is the lack of accountability of authority and recourse legally. And that is not a new theme either. For LE, what constitutes reasonable fear and justifiable lethal force? Some of the dialog I am hearing lately, that is most profound is coming from LE: Chief Flynn from Milwaukee in ABC's town hall, and Chief Brown's guidance and steadiness through Dallas are voices that put the humanity in law enforcement. We need more Chiefs like them. And is there a way LE can share these perspectives with young people that bridge the issues? I really think LE needs protection too, both physically and mentally. In the climate now how can anyone expect these men and women would be ok when the streets become a war zone with so many guns?

Here is one 2014 article I came across and point 7 stands out -
7 Reasons Police Brutality Is Not Going Away
http://mobile.businessinsider.com/7-underlying-reasons-for-police-brutality-2014-7

7. Police themselves say misconduct is remarkably widespread.
Here's the real clincher. A Department of Justice study revealed that a whopping 84 percent of police officers report that they've seen colleagues use excessive force on civilians, and 61 percent admit they don't always report "even serious criminal violations that involve abuse of authority by fellow officers."
.

 

[Woodland]

^^^These are all great points ^^^ and as horrified and heartbroken as I am about Dallas and Baton Rouge, I found myself reading about and refreshing my memory on the protests against brutality in the 70's. Because there are parallels to the issues then and now, but I think one major difference today is everyone is armed now which is perhaps a reason for the reflexes on the trigger? -To witness Philandro's death for a traffic stop is the metaphor for a much larger picture. Imo.

BBM: Yes, for civilians it is the lack of accountability of authority and recourse legally. And that is not a new theme either. For LE, what constitutes reasonable fear and justifiable lethal force? Some of the dialog I am hearing lately, that is most profound is coming from LE: Chief Flynn from Milwaukee in ABC's town hall, and Chief Brown's guidance and steadiness through Dallas are voices that put the humanity in law enforcement. We need more Chiefs like them. And is there a way LE can share these perspectives with young people that bridge the issues? I really think LE needs protection too, both physically and mentally. In the climate now how can anyone expect these men and women would be ok when the streets become a war zone with so many guns?

Here is one 2014 article I came across and point 7 stands out -
7 Reasons Police Brutality Is Not Going Away
http://mobile.businessinsider.com/7-underlying-reasons-for-police-brutality-2014-7

7. Police themselves say misconduct is remarkably widespread.
Here's the real clincher. A Department of Justice study revealed that a whopping 84 percent of police officers report that they've seen colleagues use excessive force on civilians, and 61 percent admit they don't always report "even serious criminal violations that involve abuse of authority by fellow officers."
.

You make great points rosemadderlake - now more than ever your voice will be heard - imo.

 

[CCmakes3]

Shooting someone for resisting arrest? That has been the recourse for many decades. How is that working for everyone?

Resisting arrest has always been there imo and always will be - we're talking about people not sheep. Also imo, grand juries and others have been wrong not to bring charges for shooting someone for resisting arrest or other similar reasons - what would things be like today if officers were in fact held to a higher standard?

LE is responsible for the relationship LE has with various members of the public. They can't blame that on anyone else. Jmo.

So what should police do if someone resists arrest, if they are not to use force?

If one believes that one is being unjustly arrested, better to "resist arrest" by going to the station and requesting a lawyer rather than physically fighting with an armed officer. I don't care how wrong I think the officer is, I want to make it home to my children. If these people are just like you and me and honestly innocent of any wrong-doing, I don't understand why they don't think of their beloved family members. I personally would get much more satisfaction from taking legal action for a false arrest than I would from dying in the street from a gunshot wound and looking down from heaven at my bereaved family and people rioting in the street in my name.

ETA: I know a lot of people think personal injury lawyers are sharks, but I wouldn't mind seeing them advertise specifically to POC or people in general who think they are being falsely arrested. Something like "Law enforcement unjustly targeting you? Don't fight it physically, fight it legally. Make your first phone call to us at Law!" I hate to see the courts get tied up with unnecessary BS, but it's better than people dying and animosity growing as a result. Those who advocate for resisting arrest must surely find this strategy acceptable.

 

[Woodland]

If one believes that one is being unjustly arrested, better to "resist arrest" by going to the station and requesting a lawyer rather than physically fighting with an armed officer. I don't care how wrong I think the officer is, I want to make it home to my children. I will get much more satisfaction from taking legal action for a false arrest than I will from dying in the street from a gunshot wound and looking down from heaven at my crying family and rioting in the street in my name.

Fully understand your thought - apparently it's not the same thought as all others. I don't know why, it just isn't. Dying in this process is still not justified as far as I have ever read. Jmo.

 

[katydid23]

Will it ever be OK to resist arrest or attack a cop? Their has to be some recourse for the officer, not just to take it and hope it works out OK.
There are two sides to this story. And this is the main reason grand juries nor the justice dept usually don't bring charges against the officers.
All MOO only

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Cobra Jet]

There are a few different ways an officer could look at a minor traffic stop when things start to go a bit different than a typical stop. If the suspect acts in any way that they perceive as a threat to an officer, they can shoot the suspect to end the threat. I think that most people here would agree that this would be the safest choice for the officer, but that it’s totally unacceptable. The second would be that officers are not allowed to shoot for almost any reason because this might endanger the suspect or the public. Again I think that most people would find this unreasonable and unacceptable. That leaves us with deciding what level of threat is proper and reasonable to take a life. For my part, I feel that the threat needs to be real and not perceived even though this would be more dangerous for the officer. They were hired to do a very dangerous job that puts them in harm’s way daily. Much like a firefighter takes a level of risk when he/she is required to enter a burning building and they are not allowed say they want to sit this one out because it looks too dangerous. So to a police officer should not be allowed to end a "perceived" threat by simply killing the suspect. I think it's up to us as citizens to decide what level that threat needs to rise to before an officer is allowed to use deadly force. So far that decision seems like it was up to the police to decide and in this day and age with video evidence I’m not sure that is acceptable anymore. Some might disagree with me.
With that said, I could never do the job that the police do and I respect them greatly. That’s does not mean that I’m not allowed to ask questions or hold them accountable. JMO

 

[Woodland]

An officer retreating when a threat is perceived wouldn't be a bad idea imo. It's not cowardly - it's smart. Call for back-up - smarter still.

That's what the cameras are for.

 

[human]

So what should police do if someone resists arrest, if they are not to use force?

If one believes that one is being unjustly arrested, better to "resist arrest" by going to the station and requesting a lawyer rather than physically fighting with an armed officer. I don't care how wrong I think the officer is, I want to make it home to my children. If these people are just like you and me and honestly innocent of any wrong-doing, I don't understand why they don't think of their beloved family members. I personally would get much more satisfaction from taking legal action for a false arrest than I would from dying in the street from a gunshot wound and looking down from heaven at my bereaved family and people rioting in the street in my name.

ETA: I know a lot of people think personal injury lawyers are sharks, but I wouldn't mind seeing them advertise specifically to POC or people in general who think they are being falsely arrested. Something like "Law enforcement unjustly targeting you? Don't fight it physically, fight it legally. Make your first phone call to us at Law!" I hate to see the courts get tied up with unnecessary BS, but it's better than people dying and animosity growing as a result. Those who advocate for resisting arrest must surely find this strategy acceptable.

I think it would be a good idea for people to see the cost of an attorney. Who can afford one? And if you are in jail, you need bail to get out.

 

[CCmakes3]

I think it would be a good idea for people to see the cost of an attorney. Who can afford one? And if you are in jail, you need bail to get out.

I bet quite a few attorneys would take these cases pro-bono for the publicity they inevitably bring. But even if not, there's always a public defender. If you are innocent, a public defender can get you off/get charges dismissed and you can contact another lawyer later to sue.

 

[katydid23]

If we as a society, start 'OKAYING' people resisting arrest on a routine basis , the world will become a very chaotic, dangerous place. Once that becomes the norm, then everyone will fight cops, even if the arrest is warranted. And cops will just stop making many arrests and will shrug it off. Why should they put their physical safety on the line several times a day? They won't bother.

So petty crime will explode. Criminals will be emboldened if they know that no one will bother detaining them for robberies, assaults, etc etc. It will not be a pretty thing if this happens.

 

[bluesneakers]

Philando Castile did not resist arrest.

 

[animlzrule]

An officer retreating when a threat is perceived wouldn't be a bad idea imo. It's not cowardly - it's smart. Call for back-up - smarter still.

That's what the cameras are for.

We had a guy killed by a police officer because the burglar was threatening with a pitchfork. I mean, come on. I could've deescalated that situation (nurses have good power of persuasion and manipulation ), or at the very least retreated till back up arrived. He was well known, and mentally ill. As usual, the officer was put on paid leave, and will undoubtably be cleared of all wrongdoing. Do I think he should face criminal charges? No. But, I don't think he should be a police officer, either.

 

[Woodland]

If we as a society, start 'OKAYING' people resisting arrest on a routine basis , the world will become a very chaotic, dangerous place. Once that becomes the norm, then everyone will fight cops, even if the arrest is warranted. And cops will just stop making many arrests and will shrug it off. Why should they put their physical safety on the line several times a day? They won't bother.

So petty crime will explode. Criminals will be emboldened if they know that no one will bother detaining them for robberies, assaults, etc etc. It will not be a pretty thing if this happens.

Who wants to OK resisting arrest? Do you have a post to quote? A recent article? If not, a little sensational infomercial for me.