MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[Csquare]

Ok here is my amatuer theroy. AB is implicating the BF so he gets locked up so the will be "together 4ever". I know they would not be locked up together but by together I mean incarcerated at the same time.

 

[Csquare]

Do we have proof of these threats?
Just curious, as I'm trying to catch up on media.

It was posted several threads back that he was telling people if they were talking bad about AB he was going to take care of business. Not a quote but paraphrasing what was reported.

 

[Prof]

Does MB have the same maiden name as KNP?

No, they have different fathers

KB is on her third marriage

 

[not_my_kids]

It was posted several threads back that he was telling people if they were talking bad about AB he was going to take care of business. Not a quote but paraphrasing what was reported.

From where? Another poster, blog, comments, media?

 

[not_my_kids]

Ok here is my amatuer theroy. AB is implicating the BF so he gets locked up so the will be "together 4ever". I know they would not be locked up together but by together I mean incarcerated at the same time.

IMO, most teenage girls don't think that way, even the mentally ill ones.
Their bf's are their knights in shining armor. She would likely think that if he was out, he could find a way to get her out. Not going to happen if she turns him in.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I have a question for the attorneys on this thread. What are your thoughts on this hypothetical scenerio? What if AB and her bf were both involved? Let's say that each of them dug one of the graves. Let's say that AB strangled EO, which was the cause of death, then her boyfriend stabbed her and cut her throat. If an autopsy showed that EO had died before the knife was used, what charges could the bf face? TIA

Please note, this is completely hypothetical and I'm approaching your question like a problem, and not commenting on the specific guilt of anyone.

This is pretty fact sensitive. I can explain this theoretically and practically, as an opinion, of course.

First, it all depends on the statutory provisions in MO. I don't live in MO, so I don't know what's available.

My best theoretical explanation is: if AB started killing EO in front of BF, BF has no legal duty to intervene. However, based on the specific facts of the incident, he can be implicated in the murder. Depending on his involvement, he would be either be a principle or an accessory, and either be charged with premeditated murder, accessory to murder or conspiracy of premeditated murder.

If he used the knife on her after strangulation, it would depend on whether he knew she was dead or not. If he knew she was dead, there would maybe be some sort of a "corpse mutilation" statute that would apply in addition to the accessory or conspiracy to murder charge.

If he didn't know she was dead, then that would arguably be premeditated murder. What matters is his involvement and his mens rea at the time.

Practically, he could be charged with the same thing that AB is charged with.

 

[tlcya]

Abuse of a corpse, which is a misdemeanor. Any charges incurred from covering up a murder.

Not an attorney, but I play one on the weekends.

In addition I would think there would also be plenty of grounds for accessory to murder 1st degree (if the speculation regarding the bf in the posts above turned out to be true). Helping dig the grave prior would show just as much premeditiation as AB, and wether he or she served up the killing injury, under the supposed circumstances above, he could also be charged with murder in the 1st.

The above is MOHO as I am not an attorney but I do work for them. (although not criminal attorneys)

 

[Csquare]

From where? Another poster, blog, comments, media?

If I rememeber it was from a poster who has a child in the school.

 

[MDATCA]

IMO D helped dig the graves. Maybe they even conceived a "murder fantasy" but in the end she worked alone. I still am curious as to AB and Wed evening at home. I just can't imagine she wouldn't have been agitated after such an act. How could she behave as if nothing was up?

Wasn't EA supposably in the woods. I would think that by now she would have said something if D was there. Unless he came after she was sent home and they called Elizabeth back so as far as EA knew Elizabeth went home.. With all the questioning and counseling I am fairly certain she has told all she knows.

I wish we knew more about D. I have 2 D's one full name the other just the first and the last initial. I have pretty much eliminated one of them. So I wonder about the other. How old is he for sure? What is his history with trouble? Family life? As I said before I wouldn't be surprised of his involvement but don't think he was a part of it all and AB is covering for him.

One has some Internet presence the other does not. I suspect the one with nothing out there. I think he got rid of himself as much as possible. I wonder if he was as "smart" as AB. Did they know enough about the law to think she would have an easier punishment. Did they research the info before hand? For that matter did they research how to get away with it? Did they think that LE wouldn't look hard at AB right off giving them more time? It is kind of scary to think that they may have looked at sites like this to see how LE would proceed.

It is hard to remember what is known fact and what is rumor to fit him in without coming up with buts and having to try and find if it is a fact or not.

 

[Gray]

IMO, her bf may be called as a witness to her character, but I do not believe he is involved. That is the extent of his involvement IMO. If he had assisted in any way, wouldn't there be a lack of an alibi that would cause suspicion? I think if he was guilty of assistance in the murder he'd need more to cover it up than just Alyssa covering for him.

 

[not_my_kids]

In addition I would think there would also be plenty of grounds for accessory to murder 1st degree (if the speculation regarding the bf in the posts above turned out to be true). Helping dig the grave prior would show just as much premeditiation as AB, and wether he or she served up the killing injury, under the supposed circumstances above, he could also be charged with murder in the 1st.

The above is MOHO as I am not an attorney but I do work for them. (although not criminal attorneys)

But, how can you be charged with murder if you attacked a dead person? Hypothetically, of course.

 

[Prof]

Do we have proof of these threats?
Just curious, as I'm trying to catch up on media.

There is no proof that I know of-- I have not seen any news media article that mentions the bf making threats -- the only news article that I remember even mentioning the bf was the interview of AB's friend JM

I try to track down some of the rumors :waitasec:

I think this rumor came from a local on another crime forum -- one can Google some key words on this particular rumor topic and find the original post that included a threat with a gun

 

[tlcya]

But, how can you be charged with murder if you attacked a dead person? Hypothetically, of course.

Easily, if you were part of digging a grave and further, stabbed a murder victim, it is pretty clear that you intended to participate in the planning and execution of a murder. Whether you struck the killing blow or not it is considered just as murderous as if you had.

 

[Prof]

Here's a local's statement (rumor) on the bf whereabouts in the comments of this news article
http://newstribune.com/articles/200...ential09.txt#539c32dbf3e921deb43c1aac787b91df

 

[AndresEscobar]

In addition I would think there would also be plenty of grounds for accessory to murder 1st degree (if the speculation regarding the bf in the posts above turned out to be true). Helping dig the grave prior would show just as much premeditiation as AB, and wether he or she served up the killing injury, under the supposed circumstances above, he could also be charged with murder in the 1st.

The above is MOHO as I am not an attorney but I do work for them. (although not criminal attorneys)

You're pretty right here, IMO.

I just want to point out that you guys should be careful when throwing around the "premeditation" word, if you want to be completely legally accurate. Not trying to stir the pot, and please don't attack me or read into this as a defense or justification of what anyone did in this case. Murder is a "specific intent" crime. Premeditation is a legal term, requiring "malice aforethought". Specific intent requires more than just "wanting to kill someone". For premeditated murder, you would have to have a specific intent to end the life of the specific victim.

"digging a grave" isn't necessarily legal premeditation, there has to be specific intent to kill the person. However, digging a grave is indicative of intent. It would require specific evidence to prove intent.

Understand what I'm saying? Let me illustrate my point. P and A go into a back yard and "dig a grave". P then goes out, without A's knowledge, and kills someone and burried them in the "grave". A does not have the specific intent for premeditated murder.

 

[mixologist74]

Here's a local's statement on the bf whereabouts in the comments of this news article
http://newstribune.com/articles/200...ential09.txt#539c32dbf3e921deb43c1aac787b91df

It's a local's statement, which hasn't been released in media, thus it COULD be rumor.

 

[not_my_kids]

It's a local's statement, which hasn't been released in media, thus it COULD be rumor.

For all intents and purposes, it IS a rumor.

 

[Deleted member 718]

"Cole County Prosecutor Mark Richardson said that fact that Cole County Sheriff Greg White wants first degree murder charges shows that White believes Olten’s murder was premeditated."

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=378814

The authorities lead us to believe it's premeditated. We didn't come up with that ourselves. HTH

 

[not_my_kids]

You're pretty right here, IMO.

I just want to point out that you guys should be careful when throwing around the "premeditation" word, if you want to be completely legally accurate. Not trying to stir the pot, and please don't attack me or read into this as a defense or justification of what anyone did in this case. Murder is a "specific intent" crime. Premeditation is a legal term, requiring "malice aforethought". Specific intent requires more than just "wanting to kill someone". For premeditated murder, you would have to have a specific intent to end the life of the specific victim.

"digging a grave" isn't necessarily legal premeditation, there has to be specific intent to kill the person. However, digging a grave is indicative of intent. It would require specific evidence to prove intent.

Understand what I'm saying? Let me illustrate my point. P and A go into a back yard and "dig a grave". P then goes out, without A's knowledge, and kills someone and burried them in the "grave". A does not have the specific intent for premeditated murder.

You answered the question I had and three or four I didn't know I had yet. Thank you.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Cole County Prosecutor Mark Richardson said that fact that Cole County Sheriff Greg White wants first degree murder charges shows that White believes Olten’s murder was premeditated.

The authorities lead us to believe it's premeditated. We didn't come up with that ourselves. HTH

Assuming this is directed towards me. I'm more referring to premeditation in regards to the other person allegedly involved, not AB who was charged.

Though, I'd be willing to bet you a beer that the prosecution has more to bank on in their premeditation argument than the digging of the graves.