MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[W8nC]

Yes but that is highly circumstantial and we have no way of knowing or proving what she was referring to or thinking or what her intentions were at the time she wrote that statement and therefore such a statement really has no place in a court of law since any interpretation of what she meant or intended by it would be speculation and not based on fact.

True. Maybe she meant something like "I should have gone to church....because then everyone could have seen my new outfit". The bare statement doesn't indicate remorse or guilt feelings or a wish that things had gone differently.

 

[LadyBug99]

Yes but this isnt a civil trial, although that could come later, in a criminal trial where a prozac defense would be used, you wouldnt be putting the drug company on trial but you would simply be arguing that the drug made it impossible for her to understand the wrongfulness of her acts. This is not to say that the drug itself is bad for everyone but it can effect some people in that way and her attorney would argue that she is one of those people. In a civil lawsuit you would then be actually putting the drug company on trial but in the criminal trial you would simply argue diminished capacity due to known adverse effects of prozac on some patients. Her therapist could be called in to question for giving her this drug knowing her history of suicidal attempts and prozacs propensity to increase that sort of behavior in such patients.

Yes the black box does state that it causes this and that is ok, all the prozac defense is arguing is that she did indeed suffer these adverse effects and it led to the result of her being involved in this murder. You arent suing the company for tricking or lying to anyone you are simply arguing that AB suffered the adverse effects of prozac which the company itself admits is a possibility.

In a civil trial the black box warning would protect the company but in a murder trial the company isnt being sued, the argument is simply that prozac can cause such and such behavior, the company admits this, and my client suffered from it and that resulted in her killing someone.

The company only now admits that there are dangerous side effect of the drug Prozac. I would love to see more done to these drug companies. Eli Lilly puts the human lives at risk when they irresponsible market their drugs. Prozac & Zyprexa are the two big ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I know there were 20 or so deaths in relation to the drug Zyprexa. They never disclosed that the drug could be linked to diabetes. It seems as though the billion dollars lawsuits are nothing but a smack on the wrist...meanwhile lives have been lost due to their deceit.

 

[W8nC]

It's crossed my mind that her statement about wanting to know what it was like to kill someone, may have had a connection, in a way, to being born female. In our society, there are circumstances where it's considered okay for a male to kill, such as war, or in the line of duty as a LEO. She has 2 younger brothers, and a young adult uncle. Maybe she was having male envy issues. Yeah, I know there are females in law enforcement and the military, but she may not have had any exposure to them, so didn't think it was an option. And it's still wrong to WANT to kill, even in an acceptable venue. All forms of violence are more acceptable, or expectable (word?) from males, in our society.

Just a thought....from a psyche major, lol. Yes, true child of the 70's.

 

[mia g]

I want to know why also, I am afraid though to Alyssa the answer is simply what she said. She wanted to do it. Though my mind just can not comprehend that answer, but again I have never wnated to know what it felt like to kill or even hurt somebody else. I my life the worse thing I can do, is even hurt another human, whether it be theri feelings, or physically.

I do not like nor want to believe the theory, she was "born bad. Besides the fact it scares the hello outta me, it is against, everything I was raised to believe. If she was born bad, was she bad in the womb?? Or did the bad not enter until she took that first breath?

I am afraid she was "showing off" how big bad and tough she was. I am afraid she decided to never be "hurt" again(ie rejection from parents), and she just "turned to stone" so to say. (this is the feeling many cutters describe)

With all that said I am sad for whatever desenitized a little girl(the young Alyssa), but I truly feel she may not be able to ever "feel" again. I see her mug shots, and in my head I can just see THAT face saying"I wanted to know what it felt like". Even after weeks of being "detained" and I figure many many people talking to her, she is still hard and cold. I have faced hardened criminals day in and day out that had more "care" in their eyes then this 15 yr old. My granma always said the "eyes are the window to the soul" I was not sure what that meant until I saw Alyssa's mug shot. TO ME, her eyes are dead, as is her soul. No light there at all. Just a blank empty stare. (I am going to go back and look at older pics and see if her eyes are also blank there?) I have a brother in a vegatative state from head injury 15 plus years ago, and his eyes have more life and emotion then this girl.

 

[eyes4crime]

The company only now admits that there are dangerous side effect of the drug Prozac. I would love to see more done to these drug companies. Eli Lilly puts the human lives at risk when they irresponsible market their drugs. Prozac & Zyprexa are the two big ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I know there were 20 or so deaths in relation to the drug Zyprexa. They never disclosed that the drug could be linked to diabetes. It seems as though the billion dollars lawsuits are nothing but a smack on the wrist...meanwhile lives have been lost due to their deceit.

You are so right. That black box warning is NOT because Eli Lilly cares about people...these adverse reactions and side effects were known long time ago...rather, they are for the company to use in the case of law suits.

They pushed Zyprexa in the elderly...targeting those in nursing homes. In my opinion, that is unforgivable. Preying on children and the elderly is nothing short of predator behavior. mho

 

[bigflaw]

According to Dr. Robert D. Hare, PhD (Without Conscience) - Psychopaths are not disoriented or out of touch with reality, nor do they have hallucinations, delusions or the subjective distress that plague those with mental disorders. Psychopaths are aware of what they are doing and they know why. --snippped--

Psychopath has become a "loose" term. Some organizations use it differently depending on if it's medical field , psycology, etc.

I was tought this difference between sociopathy and psychopathy:

Sociopath: Know what they are doing is wrong, but does it anyway
Psychopath: Unable to comprehend right from wrong, acts on only impulse.

In this terminology, I very much think AB is a sociopath.

(Not disagreeing that in the context you posted she is a psychopath, but I think that doc is talking about both sociopaths and psychopaths as psychopaths)

 

[LadyBug99]

I want to know why also, I am afraid though to Alyssa the answer is simply what she said. She wanted to do it. Though my mind just can not comprehend that answer, but again I have never wnated to know what it felt like to kill or even hurt somebody else. I my life the worse thing I can do, is even hurt another human, whether it be theri feelings, or physically.

I do not like nor want to believe the theory, she was "born bad. Besides the fact it scares the hello outta me, it is against, everything I was raised to believe. If she was born bad, was she bad in the womb?? Or did the bad not enter until she took that first breath?

I am afraid she was "showing off" how big bad and tough she was. I am afraid she decided to never be "hurt" again(ie rejection from parents), and she just "turned to stone" so to say. (this is the feeling many cutters describe)

With all that said I am sad for whatever desenitized a little girl(the young Alyssa), but I truly feel she may not be able to ever "feel" again. I see her mug shots, and in my head I can just see THAT face saying"I wanted to know what it felt like". Even after weeks of being "detained" and I figure many many people talking to her, she is still hard and cold. I have faced hardened criminals day in and day out that had more "care" in their eyes then this 15 yr old. My granma always said the "eyes are the window to the soul" I was not sure what that meant until I saw Alyssa's mug shot. TO ME, her eyes are dead, as is her soul. No light there at all. Just a blank empty stare. (I am going to go back and look at older pics and see if her eyes are also blank there?) I have a brother in a vegatative state from head injury 15 plus years ago, and his eyes have more life and emotion then this girl.

I didn't look into the mug shot picture too much. I would bet that she was on some sort of sedative MO

 

[PAXIMUS]

It's crossed my mind that her statement about wanting to know what it was like to kill someone, may have had a connection, in a way, to being born female. In our society, there are circumstances where it's considered okay for a male to kill, such as war, or in the line of duty as a LEO. She has 2 younger brothers, and a young adult uncle. Maybe she was having male envy issues. Yeah, I know there are females in law enforcement and the military, but she may not have had any exposure to them, so didn't think it was an option. And it's still wrong to WANT to kill, even in an acceptable venue. All forms of violence are more acceptable, or expectable (word?) from males, in our society.

Just a thought....from a psyche major, lol. Yes, true child of the 70's.

Exactly and a good lawyer can create reasonable doubt arguing to that effect in court in re: that statement. You just cant get in someone's head and know what they are thinking when they write something like that and therefore all you can do is guess and we cant have murder convictions based on guesswork, I just dont like the implications of that.

 

[danni]

With all that said I am sad for whatever desenitized a little girl(the young Alyssa), but I truly feel she may not be able to ever "feel" again. I see her mug shots, and in my head I can just see THAT face saying"I wanted to know what it felt like". Even after weeks of being "detained" and I figure many many people talking to her, she is still hard and cold. I have faced hardened criminals day in and day out that had more "care" in their eyes then this 15 yr old. My granma always said the "eyes are the window to the soul" I was not sure what that meant until I saw Alyssa's mug shot. TO ME, her eyes are dead, as is her soul. No light there at all. Just a blank empty stare. (I am going to go back and look at older pics and see if her eyes are also blank there?) I have a brother in a vegatative state from head injury 15 plus years ago, and his eyes have more life and emotion then this girl.

snipped and bbm

My husband said the exact same thing without even knowing who she was, he also added "Damn whoever that is looks HATEFUL!"

 

[eyes4crime]

Psychopath has become a "loose" term. Some organizations use it differently depending on if it's medical field , psycology, etc.

I was tought this difference between sociopathy and psychopathy:

Sociopath: Know what they are doing is wrong, but does it anyway
Psychopath: Unable to comprehend right from wrong, acts on only impulse.

In this terminology, I very much think AB is a sociopath.

(Not disagreeing that in the context you posted she is a psychopath, but I think that doc is talking about both sociopaths and psychopaths as psychopaths)

That's interesting. According to Dr. Hare and his research, the Psychopath knows exactly what he/she is doing. He is careful to say it isn't a mental disorder. Seems that what you were taught is the opposite of what Dr. Hare has researched.

It is becoming a 'loose' term here in the states and that's a shame. The psychopath has areas of the brain that show different patterns from normal people regarding the processing of emotion. To give the check list, you must/should be trained. Unfortunately that isn't the case lately. If you read Dr. Hare's research, take his classes on psychopathy chk list, and read his books you will have an enhanced understanding and respect for his work. mho

 

[AndresEscobar]

Just as some babies are born with brains that don't allow them to learn academically, I think it is possible they are born with brains unable to learn emotionally or socially. jmo

I believe this as well. I don't think our statements are mutually exclusive.

 

[AndresEscobar]

FEMONANON, re: ICP lyrics

I'm not familiar with really any of ICP's discography or lyrics because I'm not a fan and don't really care to waste my time actually listening to that music. What I do know is they claim at least some of their lyrics have christian themes or references, and are hinting towards finding God.

I also know that their "Jokers Cards" are a series of concept albums, which culminated with "Thy Unveiling", where they claimed everything was about teaching Juggalos to find God. The legitimacy or adequacy of this I'm not in a position to debate.

What I take away from it, though, is Juggalos/Juggalettes seem to come from rougher backgrounds. They want to come home from their job and listen to some ICP. Maybe, aside from their cartoonish violence, it has a positive effect on some people.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

I have a question, and I'm sorry if it's been asked.. but I'm still trying to catch up a little..

The statements that AB made to her friend about "wanting to know what it felt like to kill someone" or to that context.. in court could this statement be used or dismissed as hearsay or could it be argued about her drug use at the time it was said? (I mean was she using illicit drugs or her prescribed meds which could make her say strange things..) Sorry if it sounds wacky and maybe I haven't worded the question right..

 

[AndresEscobar]

I have a question, and I'm sorry if it's been asked.. but I'm still trying to catch up a little..

The statements that AB made to her friend about "wanting to know what it felt like to kill someone" or to that context.. in court could this statement be used or dismissed as hearsay or could it be argued about her drug use at the time it was said? (I mean was she using illicit drugs or her prescribed meds which could make her say strange things..) Sorry if it sounds wacky and maybe I haven't worded the question right..

For it not to be hearsay, the person who heard her say that would have to testify.

 

[PAXIMUS]

If I testified---AB told her friend she wanted to kill someone = hearsay

But if I said---AB told ME she wanted to kill someone=ok

 

[W8nC]

I have a question, and I'm sorry if it's been asked.. but I'm still trying to catch up a little..

The statements that AB made to her friend about "wanting to know what it felt like to kill someone" or to that context.. in court could this statement be used or dismissed as hearsay or could it be argued about her drug use at the time it was said? (I mean was she using illicit drugs or her prescribed meds which could make her say strange things..) Sorry if it sounds wacky and maybe I haven't worded the question right..

It probably doesn't matter that she said that to her friend in January.....since she said it to the cops in October. The highway patrolman who testified at her adult competency hearing said that she had said her reason for killing Elizabeth was that she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone.

If she said it in January, as well, that might indicate how long she'd been thinking about it though.

 

[human]

This is my understanding on how a lot of "science" works nowadays. There is a website, or there used to be called "Scientists for Sale."

Let's say a drug company has a drug. They pay for the research so the research belongs to them.

6 months-everything is fine. 12 months, things start happening. Some deaths, side affects. 18 months of use-oh oh, lots of side effects and deaths.

Since the drug company owns the research, they only put out the info up to 6 months.

It's cheaper to pay for the lawsuits than to pull the drug off of the market. They make lots of profit.

This is true for a lot of things out there. Toxic chemicals, for example.

 

[PAXIMUS]

It probably doesn't matter that she said that to her friend in January.....since she said it to the cops in October. The highway patrolman who testified at her adult competency hearing said that she had said her reason for killing Elizabeth was that she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone.

If she said it in January, as well, that might indicate how long she'd been thinking about it though.

I have to believe she didnt have an attorney present when she said that to LE and if that is so that may be thrown out. I cant imagine an attorney letting her speak so freely in his or her presence.

 

[PAXIMUS]

This is my understanding on how a lot of "science" works nowadays. There is a website, or there used to be called "Scientists for Sale."

Let's say a drug company has a drug. They pay for the research so the research belongs to them.

6 months-everything is fine. 12 months, things start happening. Some deaths, side affects. 18 months of use-oh oh, lots of side effects and deaths.

Since the drug company owns the research, they only put out the info up to 6 months.

It's cheaper to pay for the lawsuits than to pull the drug off of the market. They make lots of profit.

This is true for a lot of things out there. Toxic chemicals, for example.

This is where alot of people go wrong when they come down on trial lawyers and allow legislation to cap monetary amounts for damages. As long as it is cheaper to pay out a civil judgement than it is to pull a drug off the market they will continue to leave the drugs on the market. There should no caps on civil monetary damages, when one of these companies is finally hit with a BILLION DOLLAR judgement they will learn, MAYBE.

 

[vjlaw]

I have to believe she didnt have an attorney present when she said that to LE and if that is so that may be thrown out. I cant imagine an attorney letting her speak so freely in his or her presence.

I understood a juvenile officer was present also. Would a juvenile officer tell her to get an attorney?