MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[goldie finch]

This is where alot of people go wrong when they come down on trial lawyers and allow legislation to cap monetary amounts for damages. As long as it is cheaper to pay out a civil judgement than it is to pull a drug off the market they will continue to leave the drugs on the market. There should no caps on civil monetary damages, when one of these companies is finally hit with a BILLION DOLLAR judgement they will learn, MAYBE.

Yes. Somewhat OT, but this is reminiscent of Lee Iacocca's handling of the exploding Pinto. He deemed it cheaper to pay the claims than redesign the car. I was in college at the time and my economics professor used this as an example. I was horrified then at the disregard for human life and will never forget Lee Iacocca but not in a positive way.

Disillusioned Goldie

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi what got me started thinking about the supposed "therapy" was the way tht things can be reported and twisted (and spin spin)

for instance...the happy case of little Luke Finch, who was found...from the start it was reported that his non custodial father took him from a COURT SUPERVIZED VISIT....then only later we learned that the "supervision" was only a friend of the dad's, a guy he knew about a year....the guy didn't do anything wrong apparently but it shows how loosely "court appointed" might be

I don't doubt that the stated pathmark or whatever is supervising her mental health care (a shrink is needed for the prescriptions) but what about the therapy??

2 hours a day?? what sort of superinsurance pays for that? None that I know of

that is why I wondered if the gm might count some sort of Mormon after school program, or whatever as "therapy"

(another example of misleading statements would be that Michael Jackson was under the care of a "physician"....or Anna Nicole was "under a doctor's care")

 

[PAXIMUS]

I understood a juvenile officer was present also. Would a juvenile officer tell her to get an attorney?

They should have, if she didnt have an attorney when she said all of these things, and I dont know if she did or didnt, but if she didnt then this stuff could be tossed and they will have no confession or anything at trial, they will then have a very thin case.

 

[Csquare]

They should have, if she didnt have an attorney when she said all of these things, and I dont know if she did or didnt, but if she didnt then this stuff could be tossed and they will have no confession or anything at trial, they will then have a very thin case.

Unless they read her her rights.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Yes but she is a minor, she would have to have some sort of representation present for them to speak to her and IF grandma advised her to go ahead and talk without an attorney present I can assure you everything she said will be tossed and the jury will never hear it.

BUT she may have had an atty present, I do not know, if she didnt though we have a whole new ballgame here.

Andres we need to find out if she had a lawyer present during that confession because if she didnt and grandma told her to talk, it will be TOSSED, agree???

IF this judge doesnt toss it an appeals judge surely will and that will reverse her possible conviction, but thats getting ahead of ourselves a bit.

 

[Csquare]

Yes but she is a minor, she would have to have some sort of representation present for them to speak to her and IF grandma advised her to go ahead and talk without an attorney present I can assure you everything she said will be tossed and the jury will never hear it.

BUT she may have had an atty present, I do not know, if she didnt though we have a whole new ballgame here.

Andres we need to find out if she had a lawyer present during that confession because if she didnt and grandma told her to talk, it will be TOSSED, agree???

IF this judge doesnt toss it an appeals judge surely will and that will reverse her possible conviction, but thats getting ahead of ourselves a bit.

IF you know your rights and you still go ahead and talk how can that be thrown out?

 

[dnrslucky1]

Unless they read her her rights.

This girl is only 15 years old, she is a minor, I hope whatever she said without an attorney present is thrown out!

 

[PAXIMUS]

IF you know your rights and you still go ahead and talk how can that be thrown out?

Because she is a minor and the police cannot question a minor without a parents consent and if the parent told her to talk without a lawyer thats ignorant advice and neglience on the GPs part and it will be tossed either now or in an appeals court later.

Again she may have had an attorney present but I havent seen any evidence that she did and if she didnt then LE blew this case before it started. Anything she said without an atty present NO MATTER WHAT GRANDMA told her to do it should be inadmissable.

AND I would add EVEN IF SHE DID HAVE AN ATTORNEY present if that atty sat there and let her tell LE that she wanted to see what it was like to kill someone then that ATTY COMMITTED MALPRACTICE and it could still be tossed. There is NO WAY any atty would let her sit there and run her mouth like that, NO WAY.

 

[Csquare]

This girl is only 15 years old, she is a minor, I hope whatever she said without an attorney present is thrown out!

I am sure the authorities dotted the i and crossed the t's. They planned on thursday to interview her on Friday. I am sure they would not jepordize the case.

 

[LadyRider]

I am sure the authorities dotted the i and crossed the t's. They planned on thursday to interview her on Friday. I am sure they would not jepordize the case.

Well after reading all this legal information, I would surely think that the FBI and other LEOs know these laws from past experience and hopefully from training. And if not it should be mandatory training for them.

 

[dnrslucky1]

I am sure the authorities dotted the i and crossed the t's. They planned on thursday to interview her on Friday. I am sure they would not jepordize the case.

I hope you are correct for all involved. I have seen how LE can put words in an adults mouth, they would have much more influence on a 15 year old. IMO evidence so far says she was involved in this terrible crime, but she still deserves proper representation. There are not enough facts available yet.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I am sure the authorities dotted the i and crossed the t's. They planned on thursday to interview her on Friday. I am sure they would not jepordize the case.

Well like I said even if she did have an atty if that atty sat there and let her tell LE that "she wanted to see what it was like to kill someone" then that is another issue there to deal with, thats potentially malpractice IMO.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I hope you are correct for all involved. I have seen how LE can put words in an adults mouth, they would have much more influence on a 15 year old. IMO evidence so far says she was involved in this terrible crime, but she still deserves proper representation. There are not enough facts available yet.

Well said my friend!

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Can an atty stop someone from saying something? Can't they only advise them of their right to not speak and give their recommendation that they don't?

 

[W8nC]

Because she is a minor and the police cannot question a minor without a parents consent and if the parent told her to talk without a lawyer thats ignorant advice and neglience on the GPs part and it will be tossed either now or in an appeals court later.

Again she may have had an attorney present but I havent seen any evidence that she did and if she didnt then LE blew this case before it started. Anything she said without an atty present NO MATTER WHAT GRANDMA told her to do better be tossed or I will fly there myself and appeal it.

AND I would add EVEN IF SHE DID HAVE AN ATTORNEY present if that atty sat there and let her tell LE that she wanted to see what it was like to kill someone then that ATTY COMMITTED MALPRACTICE and it could still be tossed. There is NO WAY any atty would let her sit there and run her mouth like that, NO WAY.

So basically you're saying that everything she told LE on that Friday will be thrown out, regardless. If she didn't have an attorney, it'll get thrown out, and if she did have an anttorney, then either it'll get thrown out, or there will be an appeal based on attorney malpractice.

Under what circumstances would this confession be usable?

 

[Prof]

I am sure the authorities dotted the i and crossed the t's. They planned on thursday to interview her on Friday. I am sure they would not jepordize the case.

I think it is only a rumor (ILC I think) that they planned on Thursday to question her on Friday, and I believe that contradicts what Sheriff White stated in his press conference on Friday morning at 10 am -- he held TWO press conferences Friday -- in the morning at 10 am and then at 3 pm when he announced the arrest

The 13 minute video of the Sheriff's press conference Friday at 10 am can be found here:
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/content.aspx?id=366922

This story about the press conference (briefly) was posted just before 1 pm on Friday
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=366995

I believe somewhere (maybe in the 3 pm presser) he stated that after the presser that Friday morning he received the information that led to the arrest -- at least that is my memory

I am not sure what is true -- the ILC rumor, or what the Sheriff sad -- sadly

If in fact they set up the AB interview on Thursday for Friday, I seriously do not believe that they knew enough to tell her to have an attorney present

I am going to try to find the link to the 3 pm Friday presser -- have not found it yet - but this article http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=367283
stated:

"The break in the case came just after Friday’s 10 a.m. press conference. That’s when authorities received a hand-written note that led them to the 15-year-old suspect; the teen than lead authorities to Elizabeth’s body."

 

[danni]

I think it is billsnit that if she was read her rights, she had a legal guardian present during questioning that they could throw all that out! I guess they will also throw out the fact that she led them to the body!

Q: Hey Mr. Officer, how did you find the body?
A: Oh a little birdy told us!
I doubt it!

 

[JLMcKenna83]

If LE made arrangements for AB to be questioned, I'd assume they would have had to set that up with her GP's. And I would assume that since they knew their granddaughter was going to be questioned.. they would have gotten an attorney. These people have had dealings with the law before. (Daughter in Jail numerous times, son in law in jail..) I highly doubt that they are ignorant as to what it means when they ask to question your 15 year old grand daughter when the neighbor girl is missing.

oh yeah.. imo.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Can an atty stop someone from saying something? Can't they only advise them of their right to not speak and give their recommendation that they don't?

Yes they cannot stop them but I am certain if she had an atty tell her not to talk she would listen, she isnt stupid and seems very street wise to me. My only conclusion is that GP were there with her and they gave permission to speak to AB and the cops pressered her in to confessing and if thats the case it will be tossed, better be. Thats the kind of crap that really pisses me off when LE takes advantage of a situation like that because people are ignorant and dont understand the consequences of talking to LE without an atty present.

 

[danni]

I think it is only a rumor (ILC I think) that they planned on Thursday to question her on Friday, and I believe that contradicts what Sheriff White stated in his press conference on Friday morning at 10 am -- he held TWO press conferences Friday -- in the morning at 10 am and then at 3 pm when he announced the arrest

The 13 minute video of the Sheriff's press conference Friday at 10 am can be found here:
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/content.aspx?id=366922

This story about the press conference (briefly) was posted just before 1 pm on Friday
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=366995

I believe somewhere (maybe in the 3 pm presser) he stated that after the presser that Friday morning he received the information that led to the arrest -- at least that is my memory

I am not sure what is true -- the ILC rumor, or what the Sheriff sad -- sadly

If in fact they set up the AB interview on Thursday for Friday, I seriously do not believe that they knew enough to tell her to have an attorney present

I am going to try to find the link to the 3 pm Friday presser

If they held a press conf. at 10, talked to her per the already planned interview after that, then they got the confession during that interview and arrestered her at that time, then she took them to the body, and they held a 3:00 PC. it would make total sense!