MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[vjlaw]

And this makes it sound like there was never any time for her to be advised by an attorney which IMO means EVERYTHING from the moment she started talking is fruit of the poison tree and should be tossed.

Our friend ILC, iirc, said the grandparents allowed them in the house, so may have been something recovered there before AB was found. ILC also said they wanted to wait to talk to her when her head was clear as she had skipped school and was getting high on thurs. This is what I think I remember he said.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

And this makes it sound like there was never any time for her to be advised by an attorney which IMO means EVERYTHING from the moment she started talking is fruit of the poison tree and should be tossed.

If you look in the court docs Form 1 - General Docket Entry filed 11/18/09 it states that if any taping or recording was taken it cannot be used because AB was not represented by counsel. So, I think that may give an answer to that debate..

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Our friend ILC, iirc, said the grandparents allowed them in the house, so may have been something recovered there before AB was found. ILC also said they wanted to wait to talk to her when her head was clear as she had skipped school and was getting high on thurs. This is what I think I remember he said.

I have seen on other sites that ILC was actually a younger girl, and had no association with the family.. I found her myspace listed on a few sites.

 

[LadyBug99]

OK so if they can't use her statements and they can't say what led them to the body. What are we left with? Whatever evidence there is tying her to the murder?

Pax- Do you think the PD will change her plea to guilty or argue her innocence? TIA

 

[W8nC]

If you look in the court docs Form 1 - General Docket Entry filed 11/18/09 it states that if any taping or recording was taken it cannot be used because AB was not represented by counsel. So, I think that may give an answer to that debate..

That's the arraingment, which was in the early afternoon on 11/18. Valentine was dismissed at the end of the Adult Competency hearing, which took place that morning. So she went into the afternoon arraignment without an attorney.

This doesn't refer to the questioning on that Friday after the murder.

 

[vjlaw]

I have seen on other sites that ILC was actually a younger girl, and had no association with the family.. I found her myspace listed on a few sites.

We are pretty sure who HE is on here because we were given his first name and that matches someone in the family. Because of the circumstances Tricia gave his first name.

 

[Csquare]

I just spoke to a subject matter expert and they told me her confession will stand regardless if she had an attorney present. I know that will break some peoples heart that she won't be set free on that technicality.

 

[danni]

If you look in the court docs Form 1 - General Docket Entry filed 11/18/09 it states that if any taping or recording was taken it cannot be used because AB was not represented by counsel. So, I think that may give an answer to that debate..

Docket Entry: Judge/Clerk - Note
Text: If any taping or recording was accomplished during the arraingment, those recordings or tapings cannot be used as the defendant was not represented by counsel at the arraignment. PSJ
Filing Party: JOYCE , PATRICIA S

B&I BM

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Ok, so I was mistaken, like I said I'm no lawyer.. :doh:

 

[W8nC]

Ok, so I was mistaken, like I said I'm no lawyer.. :doh:

Lol, that's good cause you're not a very good one :waitasec:



....just kidding.....

 

[Prof]

I was thinking early on (after the Friday stuff, like maybe the following Mon), that it was a little odd, like maybe they had more idea about what was up than they told. First, there was no Amber Alert. They blamed that on not having a description of a suspect or vehicle, or evidence that she was abducted. Okay, I could buy that. Then they kept the search really really close to her house and A's house, the last place she was known to be. Well, I guess you can't know what direction to look without a clue at the start of the trail, but then again, E's house is like INCHES from a highway overpass. That highway goes to St Louis and to KC. Yet people online were saying that, when they asked LE about posting flyers at businesses along the highway, east and west of town, they were met with a lukewarm response.

They turned down tons of people who were willing to search in the rain and in the dark. They kept the search area tight, like maybe they knew she'd be found close by. I haven't heard anything about sex offenders in the area being questioned. Wouldn't that be one of the first things LE would do with a missing 9 yr old girl?

I've heard kids at school were speculating that A might be involved as early as Thursday, but apparently with nothing to go on beyond a creepy feeling.

The press releases don't give anything away, but IMO LE had a creepy feeling, too, and before Friday afternoon.

I certainly was questioning the search approach, the lack of an Amber Alert, etc both Wednesday and Thursday -- I remember posting upset that on Thursday the Sheriff made a statement that sounded like he thought Elizabeth might be playing in the woods --

also why on earth would Sheriff White state that it is a good possiblity that Elizabeth is not still in the area on Friday morning?

and "The sheriff said it did not appear that the girl had run away from home, and no Amber Alert had been issued because there was no evidence of an abduction or foul play."

And the Sheriff promised Thursday night
"We will be truthful and forthcoming with what we put out."

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/22/breaking_news/doc4ae10c83ef680093862382.txt


IDK but here is another link to all of the reported updates from the Sheriff's office those 3 days
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=366189

BTW they did question sex offenders -- the Sheriff discusses this in his 10 am Friday News Conference

Here is part of our discussion on this from Friday, October 23rd

Originally Posted by gliving
http://www.komu.com/satellite/Satell...f-bae15c87f75b

"White says searchers covered a wide area on Thursday, the Friday search is more contained to specific areas. White did not give any more details. He did say an abduction is the least likely possibility in Elizabeth's disappearance. He plans to speak to the media again at 3 p.m."

Gliving What is he saying here? If she wasn't abducted, then where is she?


Prof: I find this outrageous. Evidently this Sheriff thinks she is playing in the woods. At once the link states there is very little evidence, and then it states that "an abduction is the least likely possiblity."

He says ""Well, I think the woods are a possibility (where the girl may be). Kids in this area play in the woods and farm areas." This is speculation! Why can he not speculate to benefit the child and the search?​

Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #1 - Page 17 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[PAXIMUS]

If you look in the court docs Form 1 - General Docket Entry filed 11/18/09 it states that if any taping or recording was taken it cannot be used because AB was not represented by counsel. So, I think that may give an answer to that debate..

That states that she didnt have an attorney during Arraignment so if she didnt have an attorney by then we can assume she didnt have one during police interrogation.

This case is quickly unraveling IMO, if her atty doesnt challenge that confession I am going to have to consider a conspiracy is afoot.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Docket Entry: Judge/Clerk - Note
Text: If any taping or recording was accomplished during the arraingment, those recordings or tapings cannot be used as the defendant was not represented by counsel at the arraignment. PSJ
Filing Party: JOYCE , PATRICIA S

B&I BM

EXACTLY so if she didnt have an attorney by the time of the Arraignment why are we to assume she would have had one days/weeks earlier during police questioning???

 

[Dal Gal]

We are pretty sure who HE is on here because we were given his first name and that matches someone in the family. Because of the circumstances Tricia gave his first name.

Tricia also spoke to ILC on the phone during her verification process.

 

[LadyBug99]

That states that she didnt have an attorney during Arraignment so if she didnt have an attorney by then we can assume she didnt have one during police interrogation.

This case is quickly unraveling IMO, if her atty doesnt challenge that confession I am going to have to consider a conspiracy is afoot.

IIRC She had an attorney present at the morning arraignment, she DID NOT have one present in the adult arraignment. This was before the PD was appointed. Please correct me if I'm worng. Though we still do not know if one was present during the questioning, I will guess that she did not.

 

[Csquare]

IIRC She had an attorney present at the morning arraignment, she DID NOT have one present in the adult arraignment. This was before the PD was appointed. Please correct me if I'm worng. Though we still do not know if one was present during the questioning, I will guess that she did not.

The adult cert hearing was handled by Kurt Valentine. She was arrained a couple of hours later after the grand jury released their findings and did not have an attorney in the afternoon.

 

[Gray]

Everyone was talking about Alyssa's size earlier in the thread.

Per the arrest warrant she is 5'4'' and 130 lbs.

 

[LadyBug99]

The adult cert hearing was handled by Kurt Valentine. She was arrained a couple of hours later after the grand jury released their findings and did not have an attorney in the afternoon.

And that's why the judge entered a not guilty plea correct?

 

[Dal Gal]

IIRC She had an attorney present at the morning arraignment, she DID NOT have one present in the adult arraignment. This was before the PD was appointed. Please correct me if I'm worng. Though we still do not know if one was present during the questioning, I will guess that she did not.

Couldn't the GP's have requested their regular family attorney be present for the questioning? Or could a public defender be used for that? The reason that I ask is, if they showed that they had the means to hire an attorney, might that have shown that AB wasn't eligible for public defense?

 

[PAXIMUS]

So here is the story as we know it now, she didnt have an attorney BY THE TIME of the arraignment so its safe to say that she didnt have one at the time of LE questioning when she gave her statement and confession.

The Supreme court has ruled that a minor CAN waive their right to an attorney as I quoted in another post I will repeat here:

A minor may validly waive his or her Miranda rights. The test is whether, under all the circumstances, including age, intelligence, and education, the minor had the ability to comprehend the meaning.

This is quote for you from a lead case decided by our United States Supreme Court:

"To determine whether a suspect has knowingly and intelligently waived Miranda rights, a court must appraise the "totality of the circumstances" including the suspect's "age, experience, education, background and intelligence" and "whether he has the capacity to understand the warnings given him, the nature of his Fifth Amendment rights, and the consequences of waiving those rights" (Fare v. Michael C., 442 U.S. 707 (1979), p 725)."

Given that we know she spent time in a mental facility just prior to being questioned by police I would argue that she doesnt meet THIS TEST because she may not have been mentally competent enough to appreciate the consequences of waiving her right to representation and therefore I conclude, given the facts at this time, that everything involving AB as a suspect is fruit of the poison tree and should be inadmissable which basically leaves the state with no case. I sure hope her attorney knows what she is doing.

************And yes I am jumping to conclusions and assuming some things not on record but this is all just for the sake of discussion since we dont know all the facts yet.