MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[LogicalMinds]

This is so very sad for all.

just like the "grandma" of Allyssa....she did a rotten job with Allyssa's mother..now she has Allyssa....I feel sorry for the victim/s and their families

 

[danni]

again kinda like beating a dead horse, but was reading about when did she become a poi, and ran across this online.

"Physical evidence and written evidence led police to develop a person of interest. Police interviewed the person of interest, a older teen, who then led police to Elizabeth's body."

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=367027

Does anyone know where to find a link to the 3:00 PC? I wonder if this info was stated by Sheriff White at that time?

If this statement is true. Then why WOULDN'T they have read her her miranda rights?
Step ONE: Evidence lead to developement of a person of interest!
Step TWO: Police interview said person of interest.
Step THREE: Said person of interest lead LE to the body!

I will bet my left arse cheek (I bet it once before and was right so its good luck right?) that Step ONE AND A HALF was read her her miranda rights!

 

[ynotdivein]

I have personally seen someone being questioned by LE. This person asked if he was under arrest and was told no. Then he asked for an attorney before answering any questions. LE told him he will answer what ever they ask. Person asked again if he was under arrest and again was told no. Said person walked away and LE tackled him and proceeded to arrest him for resisting arrest! Made no sense to me.

dnrslucky, not sure where, when or under what circumstances this happened, but am glad that you watched it go down. May come in handy if whatever the charge was goes to trial.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Ok I found the one I was looking for...this got a lot of coverage locally....happened in Miami
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/mia...z-trial/story/542276.html?storylink=mirelated

A quiet, 14-year-old honors student was killed in a bathroom at his Palmetto Bay middle school Tuesday morning, his throat apparently cut by a classmate in a shocking attack that paralyzed hundreds of families and terrified parents across Miami-Dade County.

Jaime Rodrigo Gough was found bleeding to death in a second-floor restroom at Southwood Middle School around 8:30 a.m. by another student, who saw a pool of blood and a pair of legs sticking out from a stall. He ran to get help, but paramedics were unable to save Jaime.

Within hours, police focused on a fellow eighth-grader, who was identified as 14-year-old Michael Hernandez. He was charged late Tuesday night with first-degree murder. Such a serious charge indicates police believe the killing may have been planned.

Michael was def mentally ill...schizophrenic...which is MORE than has been said about Allyssa.....

they also found many drawings and sadistic pictures...he had planned to kill..and he did

and he was sentenced to life without parole

I hope the same for Allyssa

http://www.justnews.com/news/17932520/detail.html

Convicted Teen Killer Sentenced To Life Without Parole
Michael Hernandez Sentenced For Murder Of Jaime Gough

POSTED: Friday, November 7, 2008
UPDATED: 6:13 pm EST November 7, 2008
MIAMI -- Michael Hernandez, a teenager convicted of murder in the killing of his classmate, Jaime Gough, has been sentenced to life in prison without parole plus an additional 30 years.

Hernandez, 18, faced a mandatory life sentence without parole as a result of his conviction on a first-degree murder charge. He also was sentenced to another 30 years in prison as a result of his conviction on an attempted murder charge.

IMHO this is a lot like the case of Allyssa and Elizabeth

and it shows that even tho "mentally ill" this kid knew right from wrong

oh and of course we get the input from his classmates...

http://www.justnews.com/news/17459348/detail.html

They also answered questions that indicated the prosecutor's pre-emptive strike on Hernandez's lawyer's insanity defense.

"Did he ever, in the period of time in that class, act in any unusual or bizarre way that stuck out in your mind?" prosecutor Kathleen Hogue asked one student.

"No," she answered.

Classmates described Hernandez as friendly and sociable, but with a dark side. They remember him enjoying computer sites depicting decapitations and mutilated bodies.

"I walked over and looked and asked him, 'Why do you have that on your computer?'" said former Southwood student Natalie Krakowski. "He said, 'I like it. It's cool. It's really neat.'"

Sounds a LOT like Allyssa....good student...."nice"...just had an urge to kill people right??

like Allyssa Michael picked someone smaller than himself....his littler friend

oh...and he was only 14 when he killed....Allyssa is 2 months away from turning 16

 

[ynotdivein]

AAARGH!

Ahem.

So. Juvies tried as adults; good idea or not?

:sick: either way.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

AAARGH!

Ahem.

So. Juvies tried as adults; good idea or not?

:sick: either way.

I vote yes. Especially in a case such as this, and the ones that logicalminds presented..

 

[LogicalMinds]

Regarding the "Miranda" issue...

IF there was some discrepancy there, we would surely hear the defense lawyers (and maybe the family) screaming about it

there has been NO news that her rights were "trampled" in any way....only Pax here has been suggesting this...but we can suggest or imagine anything

we don't know at what point they "read" her her "rights" but so far we have not heard anything controversial about it except on this board

just as the idea of a "conspirator" /boyfriend etc has only been on this board and in maybe one or two posts on the Missouri news blogs

meanwhile...in this case it seems that they have her very much "dead to rights"...

physical evidence....written evidence.....a confession....and she led them to the well concealed grave....hellooooooo

it took months for cops to build a case against Casey Anthony...and she and her lawyers are fighting it, she has NOT confessed and even now is trying to blame others (the guy who found Caylee's body etc)

the case against Allyssa is more than just "circumstantial"...it sounds very grounded to me, very simple....

if there was a problem about "reading her rights" we would hear the defense and her family yelling about it

 

[Csquare]

AAARGH!

Ahem.

So. Juvies tried as adults; good idea or not?

:sick: either way.

I say yes but on a case by case basis.

 

[Csquare]

Regarding the "Miranda" issue...

IF there was some discrepancy there, we would surely hear the defense lawyers (and maybe the family) screaming about it

there has been NO news that her rights were "trampled" in any way....only Pax here has been suggesting this...but we can suggest or imagine anything

we don't know at what point they "read" her her "rights" but so far we have not heard anything controversial about it except on this board

just as the idea of a "conspirator" /boyfriend etc has only been on this board and in maybe one or two posts on the Missouri news blogs

meanwhile...in this case it seems that they have her very much "dead to rights"...

physical evidence....written evidence.....a confession....and she led them to the well concealed grave....hellooooooo

it took months for cops to build a case against Casey Anthony...and she and her lawyers are fighting it, she has NOT confessed and even now is trying to blame others (the guy who found Caylee's body etc)

the case against Allyssa is more than just "circumstantial"...it sounds very grounded to me, very simple....

if there was a problem about "reading her rights" we would hear the defense and her family yelling about it

I am pretty sure that that would have came out at the cert hearing.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I think that some juveniles should be tried as adults...some are simply dangerous...

and their crimes are horrible

if you are dead...are you going to care if a younger person did it?? if your child was murdered...do you really give a crap if it was a 16 year old vs a 21 year old??? don't you want justice just as much??

I am personally not sure if a juvenile deserves life in prison for NON lethal crimes....like the boy sentenced to life for a series of robberies...

but...murder?? cold blooded murder?? murder for the sake of just killing someone?

Yeah...I think that they deserve life without parole in some of those cases...they are a danger

Michael Hernandez and Allyssa remind me of each other

He had planned to kill 2 of his friends and his sister...
he even tried to lure his one friend into the bathroom the day before he killed Jamie

ultimately he killed Jamie cause he was the "easiest"...he was small, and trusting and shy

Michael was popular...had hobbies and friends....but a "dark side"....like Allyssa

maybe when kids show a "dark side" someone ...parents/teachers should take note??

Google Michael Hernandez and Jamie Gough....this case had a ton of coverage locally

the trial was moved to Orlando as it was felt that he could not get a fair trial in south florida...he got a fair trial in Orlando....mentally ill or not, he was judged to be responsible and knew right from wrong....the fact he tried to cover up the murder also proved that...and he got life plus 30 years

hopefully Missouri will step up and do the same to rid themselves of Allyssa

 

[ynotdivein]

We know that LE was not giving media full information as early as the 10 a.m. Friday press conference. IMO they were drawing the net closer by that time and so I am perfectly comfortable with the Sheriff giving a presser releasing X info while other LE were investigating YZ info.

Still waiting to hear if my earlier info on police questioning/detention/arrest progression was misguided. (Sorry, feeling sassy.)

ETA: Having taught teenagers, it makes me sick to think of one of my students getting the DP. From a position years removed and with much more experience under my belt... well, dammit. It still makes me sick to think of. Maybe if we imposed the DP the next day, it would bring all our emotions about this into clearer/more immediate focus?

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Regarding the "Miranda" issue...

IF there was some discrepancy there, we would surely hear the defense lawyers (and maybe the family) screaming about it

there has been NO news that her rights were "trampled" in any way....only Pax here has been suggesting this...but we can suggest or imagine anything

we don't know at what point they "read" her her "rights" but so far we have not heard anything controversial about it except on this board

just as the idea of a "conspirator" /boyfriend etc has only been on this board and in maybe one or two posts on the Missouri news blogs

meanwhile...in this case it seems that they have her very much "dead to rights"...

physical evidence....written evidence.....a confession....and she led them to the well concealed grave....hellooooooo

it took months for cops to build a case against Casey Anthony...and she and her lawyers are fighting it, she has NOT confessed and even now is trying to blame others (the guy who found Caylee's body etc)

the case against Allyssa is more than just "circumstantial"...it sounds very grounded to me, very simple....

if there was a problem about "reading her rights" we would hear the defense and her family yelling about it

ITA if her rights had been trampled on in any way at all, we would have heard about it.

IMO...... I think the only problem that this trial is going to have is at the end, either with the verdict or the sentencing.

 

[Csquare]

We know that LE was not giving media full information as early as the 10 a.m. Friday press conference. IMO they were drawing the net closer by that time and so I am perfectly comfortable with the Sheriff giving a presser releasing X info while other LE were investigating YZ info.

Still waiting to hear if my earlier info on police questioning/detention/arrest progression was misguided. (Sorry, feeling sassy.)

ETA: Having taught teenagers, it makes me sick to think of one of my students getting the DP. From a position years removed and with much more experience under my belt... well, dammit. It still makes me sick to think of. Maybe if we imposed the DP the next day, it would bring all our emotions about this into clearer/more immediate focus?

It is just like playing cards. You nver show your hand until you are ready to go all in. That has always been the way LE has played. The more people that know too much the greater chance of screwing it up. Too many cooks spoil the stew.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I have personally seen someone being questioned by LE. This person asked if he was under arrest and was told no. Then he asked for an attorney before answering any questions. LE told him he will answer what ever they ask. Person asked again if he was under arrest and again was told no. Said person walked away and LE tackled him and proceeded to arrest him for resisting arrest! Made no sense to me.

You are with in POLICE CUSTODY which means you cannot LEAVE but you are NOT under arrest, OR you are under arrest. Both require MIRANDA.

IF they ask you to simply come down and answer questions and you say CAN I LEAVE IF I WANT and they say YES, then you are not in custody and you are not arrested and they do not have to read you your rights BUT THEN IN THE COURSE of that question session if you confess to a crime it cannot be used because you were not in official custodial situation and you were not under arrest so you didnt have your rights read to you.

IF AB was brought in for friendly questioning and wasnt in custody or under arrrest and wasnt read her miranda anythin she told them would be inadmissable.

 

[danni]

ITA if her rights had been trampled on in any way at all, we would have heard about it.

IMO...... I think the only problem that this trial is going to have is at the end, either with the verdict or the sentencing.

I think the hardest thing to decide is going to be whether to use dual jurisdiction in this case or not!

Isn't that up to the judge though? Not the jury?

 

[LogicalMinds]

We know that LE was not giving media full information as early as the 10 a.m. Friday press conference. IMO they were drawing the net closer by that time and so I am perfectly comfortable with the Sheriff giving a presser releasing X info while other LE were investigating YZ info.

Still waiting to hear if my earlier info on police questioning/detention/arrest progression was misguided. (Sorry, feeling sassy.)

ETA: Having taught teenagers, it makes me sick to think of one of my students getting the DP. From a position years removed and with much more experience under my belt... well, dammit. It still makes me sick to think of. Maybe if we imposed the DP the next day, it would bring all our emotions about this into clearer/more immediate focus?

??? DP?? Supreme court has ruled NO death penalty for juveniles...so why worry about that at all??

no one is talking death penalty for Allyssa...just try her as an adult

Insanity?? To me, it would be INSANE to try her as a juvenile...

in 5 years she would be out...with NO record....free and clear

now that is SCARY

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Dual Jurisdiction Program


Check this out.. Do you really think she deserves to be in this kind of setting?

 

[PAXIMUS]

Also keep in mind that there are two cases before the US Supreme Court right now challenging as to whether is it a violation of the 8th amendment of the Constitution to sentence anyone under 18 to LWOP. So this will have a major impact on ABs case and if they arent able to sentence her to LWOP that means she will get out at some point maybe in her 30s or 40s so I feel she should be put in a mental facility where she can at least get some medical care for her inevitable release. It is cruel and unusual to sentence a 15 year old to LWOP because thats basically an 80 year sentence for a cime that most people serve 20 years for assuming they enter prison at 40 and die at 60 or so, AB could be 70 or 80 years in prison for her crime with LWOP and the Supreme Court will decide of thats a voilation of the 8th or not when they are in session.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Also keep in mind that there are two cases before the US Supreme Court right now challenging as to whether is it a violation of the 8th amendment of the Constitution to sentence anyone under 18 to LWOP. So this will have a major impact on ABs case and if they arent able to sentence her to LWOP that means she will get out at some point maybe in her 30s or 40s so I feel she should be put in a mental facility where she can at least get some medical care for her inevitable release. It is cruel and unusual to sentence a 15 year old to LWOP because thats basically an 80 year sentence for a cime that most people serve 20 years for assuming they enter prison at 40 and die at 60 or so, AB could be 70 or 80 years in prison for her crime with LWOP and the Supreme Court will decide of thats a voilation of the 8th or not when they are in session.

I thought the supreme court cases were regarding non-lethal crimes.. which in fact would have no impact on Alyssa's case.

 

[ynotdivein]

IF AB was brought in for friendly questioning and wasnt in custody or under arrrest and wasnt read her miranda anythin she told them would be inadmissable.

PAX, I have to quibble. If she was questioned, in her home (no word that she was ever "brought in" anywhere), in the same way that anyone with a kitchen window viewing out on that road may have been, then how does Miranda come in?

1. They question her without thinking she is a POI. She volunteers info and then leads them to the grave. No Miranda needed.

2. They ID her as a POI, and question her as such, with guardians and juvie officer present. She talks, and leads them to grave site. No Miranda needed, just happened to find a talkative perp. Nothing inadmissable.