MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[LogicalMinds]

Ironically, Michael had a plea deal (that would get him release maybe about the age of 50) but he turned it down

in the Lionel Tate case his (ridiculous) mother, who was in LE herself, turned down a good plea deal

IMHO Allyssa might get some sort of plea deal

I don't think that she is going to get out on "insanity"...she was able to plan, to conceal, and that is not "insane" thinking

here is more info regarding Hernandez trial....the two cases really remind me of each other

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/michael-hernandez-trial/story/548854.html

 

[LogicalMinds]

Also keep in mind that there are two cases before the US Supreme Court right now challenging as to whether is it a violation of the 8th amendment of the Constitution to sentence anyone under 18 to LWOP. So this will have a major impact on ABs case and if they arent able to sentence her to LWOP that means she will get out at some point maybe in her 30s or 40s so I feel she should be put in a mental facility where she can at least get some medical care for her inevitable release. It is cruel and unusual to sentence a 15 year old to LWOP because thats basically an 80 year sentence for a cime that most people serve 20 years for assuming they enter prison at 40 and die at 60 or so, AB could be 70 or 80 years in prison for her crime with LWOP and the Supreme Court will decide of thats a voilation of the 8th or not when they are in session.

Please keep in mind those two cases, both from Florida..are regarding juveniles sentenced to LWOP in NON lethal cases

one is a rape case

and one is a 17 year old with a very extensive history of armed robberies
(like 3 strikes you are out)

they are NOT challenging the LWOP for murder (or even other degrees of murder/manslaughter)

just NON Lethal

let's be accurate here...thanks

 

[danni]

Dual Jurisdiction Program


Check this out.. Do you really think she deserves to be in this kind of setting?

Do I? NO not for a minute! I like the thought of her sitting in a big girl prison, and doing big girl time with big girls! exp the ones that are mothers and know what her crime is!
I am sure they will take GREAT care of her!

 

[LogicalMinds]

PAX, I have to quibble. If she was questioned, in her home (no word that she was ever "brought in" anywhere), in the same way that anyone with a kitchen window viewing out on that road may have been, then how does Miranda come in?

1. They question her without thinking she is a POI. She volunteers info and then leads them to the grave. No Miranda needed.

2. They ID her as a POI, and question her as such, with guardians and juvie officer present. She talks, and leads them to grave site. No Miranda needed, just happened to find a talkative perp. Nothing inadmissable.

Not to mention that at any given point along the way they may have read her the Miranda act....

so far there is NOTHING other than posts on this board to suggest that there is any problem with that in this case

in other cases, where there was a problem...it usually comes out pretty quick

for instance...the defense attorney would ask for the case to be dismissed when they brought her into court right???

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Also keep in mind that there are two cases before the US Supreme Court right now challenging as to whether is it a violation of the 8th amendment of the Constitution to sentence anyone under 18 to LWOP. So this will have a major impact on ABs case and if they arent able to sentence her to LWOP that means she will get out at some point maybe in her 30s or 40s so I feel she should be put in a mental facility where she can at least get some medical care for her inevitable release. It is cruel and unusual to sentence a 15 year old to LWOP because thats basically an 80 year sentence for a cime that most people serve 20 years for assuming they enter prison at 40 and die at 60 or so, AB could be 70 or 80 years in prison for her crime with LWOP and the Supreme Court will decide of thats a voilation of the 8th or not when they are in session.

Also under this theory would it then be cruel and unusual punishment to sentence a 20 year old to LWOP, because they could essentially serve a 40-60 year sentence? I'm not buyin it.

 

[Csquare]

Not to mention that at any given point along the way they may have read her the Miranda act....

so far there is NOTHING other than posts on this board to suggest that there is any problem with that in this case

in other cases, where there was a problem...it usually comes out pretty quick

for instance...the defense attorney would ask for the case to be dismissed when they brought her into court right???

You know I guess it is easier to blame LE than to admit that AB is nothing but a cold blooded KILLER.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

You know I guess it is easier to blame LE than to admit that AB is nothing but a cold blooded KILLER.

:woohoo:

 

[danni]

Something I have been thinking about...

If you were Alyssa would you want to be out of come kind of custody any time soon?

Now before you answer that question take this into consideration.

DO Sr. (Elizabeth's dad) was the main POI in the missing persons case of Jasmine Haslag. He is now serving four years (been in since earlier this year) for possession.
DO Jr. (Elizabeth's brother) is serving seven years (been in since earlier this year) for 1st and 2nd burglary, and also possession.

I don't care who ya are doing time will change you! and not always for the better. IF DO Sr. is in fact the person that caused the demise of Jasmine Haslag because she was suposed to testify against him in a drug case, what do you think he might do to someone who murdered his child?

I would take my chances in prison!

 

[raisincharlie]

Also under this theory would it then be cruel and unusual punishment to sentence a 20 year old to LWOP, because they could essentially serve a 40-60 year sentence? I'm not buyin it.

Just think - if Maurice Clemmons, who was sentenced at 16, would have actually served his sentence, the four LEo's from Lakewood WA would still be alive.

Cruel and unusual - that is reserved for the 9 kids who lost one of their parents on Sunday. AB deserves to be tried and sentenced in a matter accounting of and for her actions. She murdered a little girl in cold blood with malice and fore thought, enough said.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

Long time lurker sneaking out of the mouse hole...

Here's a link to a court case that should reassure folks. MO case, a 16 yo boy was arrested, confessed, no atty present, and in this case no parents/guardians present either. Tried as an adult and convicted. Appealed for all the reasons proposed by the devil's advocate poster earlier... lack of or incompetent council, violation of rights, etc. Appellate court upheld the conviction. The boy was smart and mature and was legally able to waive his rights and confess.

http://openjurist.org/764/f2d/532/rone-v-wyrick

We already heard testimony in the certification hearing from the principal that AB was intelligent and performed satisfactorily in school. There have been statements (somewhere) that she tested as gifted. Yes, she's been treated for depression, but she is not mentally deficient. Highly unlikely that a judge would rule she didn't understand her rights.

Certainly, at this point LE has tons of physical evidence as well. They likely found DNA evidence on EO, as well as fibers, hair, etc. It's likely they found trace evidence on AB or in her room (blood, DNA, etc). If AB did have a lot of blood on her and washed it off at home, LE could recover traces of the blood from the traps in the pipes, not to mention that traces of it would show up with special chemicals (what's it called, luminal? something like that).

That's also why I doubt there will be any charges against any additional people at this point. They wouldn't charge just based on a statement from AB. There would have to be additional physical evidence to back it up. Any such physical evidence would have been processed long ago, and charges brought long since.

That's all I have to contribute at this point...

back to my mouse hole...

nice to meet you all!

 

[ynotdivein]

PAX, thanks for trusting us with that insight into your personal situation. Mini-Pax is surely getting an upbringing that most kids don't have.

And MMouse, get out of that mouse hole more often!

 

[MDATCA]

OMG....that is simply chilling about this monster killing his little brother

and again we hear "good grades"....no one would ever "suspect" this would happen

gag me

Evil comes in all shapes, colors, sizes and shapes. You never know what the people around you are really thinking. Even your loved ones. IMO if you ever have any reason to think something is off no matter how unlikely it seems that you should put up your guard.

When I read about family murders I have tried to place the situation in my life and I can't even begin to imagine it but themn again I am sure they felt that way too. I have even tried to place myself in the murderers postion and I just can't get to a conclusion to murder.

A good example is Susan Smith. I get that she was desperate to be with the man that didn't want her and she thought it could be the kids. It is just no matter how hard I try to wrap my mind around it I can't get to that end. There are just to many options to get rid of your kid that don't include killing them. You can legally turn them in to a safe place or I know there is always someone who would take them.

 

[ynotdivein]

A good example is Susan Smith. I get that she was desperate to be with the man that didn't want her and she thought it could be the kids. It is just no matter how hard I try to wrap my mind around it I can't get to that end. There are just to many options to get rid of your kid that don't include killing them. You can legally turn them in to a safe place or I know there is always someone who would take them.

Good post MDAT and I agree with you about not being able to wrap my head around these things. And I am still left wondering, what was AB "desperate" for that led her to this?

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Good post MDAT and I agree with you about not being able to wrap my head around these things. And I am still left wondering, what was AB "desperate" for that led her to this?

all is jmo..

Attention? Something she never got from her parents...

What better way to get attention than to do all the things that she did? Cut herself, have a breakdown... when she saw that the attention was starting to wane from this behavior she figured she'd have to do something more drastic.. skipping school, possibly drugs.. the attention wasn't coming fast enough, so how else would you get attention? You get your name in the papers in a big way.. How? One would ask... Why.. you do something people will never forget.. something despicable that will have them saying.. "oh remember that girl who..." And then you try to figure out what exactly would make the biggest impact... MURDERING YOUR 9YR OLD NEIGHBOR! Perfect! No one will ever forget her now!

I'm not saying this is the reason.. I'm just tossing this out there as a possible scenario..

 

[MDATCA]

I have a few scenerios I would like to know how they are dealt with legally.

1. A 14 year old calls 911 or or the PD and says I would like to report a body. As soon as LE gets there they say, "I just killed X. I hated them and I just wanted them gone. The body is here." They have confessed and told LE where the body is without a word from the LE. They didn't even get a chance to read them their rights or anyting. What happens? Is that a confession? Is it admissable?

2. A victim has just been found shot dead. During routine questioning of the people who were last known with the victim a juvenile breaks down and blurts out a confession and justs keeps going on with info. Even if the juveniles guardian as well as LE are trying to stop them in order to get an atty. What is LE supposed to do to ensure that things are admissable. What if the guardian is tring to get the kid to stop until an atty can be obtained but the kid either wants to get it off their chest or brag about it.

What I am getting at is the possibility that as soon as LE sat down with AB she started volunteering info. I am curious to know what would happen if that is the case. I am wondering if maybe AB had researched things and believed that since she didn't have an atty present that anything she said couldn't be used against her even after being read her rights because she is a juvenile with mental issues.

I wonder if AB put a lot of thought and research into her crime. We know that she had the thoughts in January. That is 10 months she has had to look things up and ask about. I don't think this was a one week plan of dig grave, fill it at earliest convience. IMO there was a lot of pre-plotting of murder, maybe not the way she carried it out but the steps to try and get away with it. Although she didn't want to get away with it where no one would ever know. She wants to own it and wear the "power" like a badge and get as minimal punishment as possible.

It is my impression that AB is smarter and put more thought into this than many are giving her credit for.

 

[MDATCA]

all is jmo..

Attention? Something she never got from her parents...

What better way to get attention than to do all the things that she did? Cut herself, have a breakdown... when she saw that the attention was starting to wane from this behavior she figured she'd have to do something more drastic.. skipping school, possibly drugs.. the attention wasn't coming fast enough, so how else would you get attention? You get your name in the papers in a big way.. How? One would ask... Why.. you do something people will never forget.. something despicable that will have them saying.. "oh remember that girl who..." And then you try to figure out what exactly would make the biggest impact... MURDERING YOUR 9YR OLD NEIGHBOR! Perfect! No one will ever forget her now!

I'm not saying this is the reason.. I'm just tossing this out there as a possible scenario..

Exactly what I mean when I say she wants to own it. That is why I question how much did she look into getting "credit" for the crime with getting the least amount of punishment.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Is it possible that she thought that because she was a minor she would get off easy?

 

[Kimster]

To Mickey Mouse and others I haven't met yet....

We are happy you joined Websleuths!

 

[winterrose]

I honestly don't think it was just to get attention,by cutting herself,this 17 year old that just killed his brother 10,cut himself,also.I think there are just some people,although young,that are just evil.I watched the videos of AB and she was obsessed with getting her brothers to hurt themselves.She kept telling them to do things to hurt themselves,on the electric fence and especially down in the basement.These were just two instances caught on tape with them,what all had she done or tried to get them to do before?I honestly think the two graves might have been for the brothers,but it didn't work,she became obsessed with killing and just got the opportunity with EO.Maybe she realized she couldn't get both boys out there at the same time and if she got one out there she would have to get the other close to the same time period.

 

[winterrose]

The scenario here with AB is she's 15,planned a horrendous murder,dug two graves,strangled,stabbed,and slit a child's throat and buried her.Even a 12 year old is accountable and would you honestly leave your kids with a 8 year old that suffocated three babies?I don't believe it's a question of age,it's about what kind of person they are ,kids who murder purposely,are evil and even as a child to do something so horrendous,how could they be trusted in society?They should be put away to protect people from them,AB should get the DP.