MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[Natal]

We don't know what or if anything was planned. We don't know if the holes dug were intended as graves or simply holes dug for some other reason that ended up serving that purpose. We don't know her state of mind when she did this, if she did it. As for her being a cold blooded killer, how do you guys know this? There may have been a strong emotional reason, since the victim was known to her. There may have been other people involved. We know nothing of the backstory - there has to be a motivation, sane people don't just wake up one day and go out and kill people for no reason. We know just about nothing of how the incident unfolded or what exactly happened. We know just about nothing of what happened afterwards. In fact we really don't know very much about this case other than that EO is dead and that AB has been accused of her murder.

So my question is this....how can people feel so sure about everything? And if it turns out you were wrong, would you feel guilty? And if you did feel guilty, how would you do penance?

 

[LogicalMinds]

We don't know what or if anything was planned. We don't know if the holes dug were intended as graves or simply holes dug for some other reason that ended up serving that purpose. We don't know her state of mind when she did this, if she did it. As for her being a cold blooded killer, how do you guys know this? There may have been a strong emotional reason, since the victim was known to her. There may have been other people involved. We know nothing of the backstory - there has to be a motivation, sane people don't just wake up one day and go out and kill people for no reason. We know just about nothing of how the incident unfolded or what exactly happened. We know just about nothing of what happened afterwards. In fact we really don't know very much about this case other than that EO is dead and that AB has been accused of her murder.

So my question is this....how can people feel so sure about everything? And if it turns out you were wrong, would you feel guilty? And if you did feel guilty, how would you do penance?

Oh yes...and maybe aliens made her do it...or there is a whole group of unseen adults who paid her to be a hit-man (hit-girl?)

I think this is a pretty clear cut case...not a lot of variables here...

and why would I feel guilty or do penance for sitting a thousand miles away and THINKING that this girl should be locked up to keep society safe??

Penance??> ? let's worry about what penance Allysa will do LOL

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi Pax.. one must be 13 to register at this forum....under 13 need parent's permission

really the posts on some other threads might be more "upsetting" (ie, things people wish on Casey Anthony for example LOL)

some parents might object also to posts that degrade and cast automatic (unfounded in this case so far) suspicion on law enforcement officers....that might upset them

why not let your kid post and be a part of the group??

However, I won't temper my posts...I do try to post FACTS and links....especially about the "supreme court" and juveniles....Danni is also posting about this....

Facts..yet you have not replied to that?? I don't think it is fair to put out misinformation and then not recant it when it is proven to be wrong

 

[danni]

Hi Pax.. one must be 13 to register at this forum....under 13 need parent's permission

really the posts on some other threads might be more "upsetting" (ie, things people wish on Casey Anthony for example LOL)

some parents might object also to posts that degrade and cast automatic (unfounded in this case so far) suspicion on law enforcement officers....that might upset them
why not let your kid post and be a part of the group??

However, I won't temper my posts...I do try to post FACTS and links....especially about the "supreme court" and juveniles....Danni is also posting about this....

Facts..yet you have not replied to that?? I don't think it is fair to put out misinformation and then not recant it when it is proven to be wrong

BBM

A FREAKIN MEN!!!

God forbid something happen and ANY of us NEED an officer. But if and when that ever happens the first number that will be called is 911! and as bad as some have talked about officers here they will still show up and deal with the situation!

 

[crimecurious]

Forgive me if this has been posted already...

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/12/04/news_local/nt027local03alyssa09.txt

Bustamante case documents now on Circuit Court's Web site

Because of enhanced public interest in the Alyssa Bustamante case, documents are being posted in a central location on the Cole County Circuit Court Web site within one business day of their filing.

Mid-Missourians and others who wish to follow court filings in the Alyssa Bustamante case now can do so from home.

The Cole County Circuit Court this week created a special file on its Web page, posting PDF copies of all documents filed in the case. The site can be found at www.colecountycourts.com/courtnews.htm.

Bustamante, 15, faces a Cole County grand jury's Nov. 18 indictment on first-degree murder and armed criminal action charges, following the Oct. 21 killing of Elizabeth Kay Olten, 9.

Bustamante killed Olten "by strangling her, cutting her throat and stabbing her," the grand jury charged.

The Web links are a first in Cole County, although similar links have been created in other parts of the state on other high-profile cases.

"Documents filed in this case will be posted to the Courts Web page within one business day of their filing," Court Administrator Marilue Hemmel reported.

As of Thursday afternoon, the site provided Internet users the ability to download copies of several documents, including the grand jury's indictment, the warrant issued for the teen's Nov. 18 arrest and Public Defender Jan King's official entry of appearance, request for discovery and his Nov. 19 motion asking for Bustamante's "Immediate Hospitalization and Treatment."

The court has not okayed that request, and Bustamante remains in the Morgan County Jail in Versailles.

Circuit Judge Patricia Joyce entered a not guilty plea on Bustamante's behalf on Nov. 18, then appointed King's office to represent the girl in future court proceedings.

Court records show a new arraignment scheduled for 10:30 a.m. Tuesday, replacing a Monday status hearing. "This type of proceeding normally lasts less than five minutes," Hemmel noted.

Docket information also can be found on the state's Casenet site, www.courts.mo.gov/casenet.

There, users should select the "case number search" option and type in "09AC-CR03516," the number assigned to Bustamante's case.

That link will provide access to a listing of docket entries and scheduled events in the case.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well I searched for the Hernandez/Gough case...but there was only a small thread in the crimes in the news section, back from 2004 when the murder happened

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5270&highlight=jaime+gough

however, IF you google the case, you find tons of links from sun sentinel and miami herald, and local tv stations

this case had a LOT of media coverage locally....from what I recall, both kids were very smart, even gifted...they attended an outstanding "magnet" school , Michael Hernandez was popular...

mentally ill?? well the year before the murders he supposedly showed signs of obsession /compulsion regarding his weight, exercise (he had been a chubby kid).. however, many felt this was made out to be more than it was by the parents who said they "were thinking of getting him professional help"

what came out was that charming Michael had a hobby...of looking at dead or maimed or decapitated people...on the internet

he had told friends he wanted to "kill someone" ...he had aspirations to be a serial killer

he kept a notebook..with gross and sadistic drawings...and made a plan to kill 2 classmates and his sister

the first classmate refused to go to the boy's bathroom with him a few days before the murder...he thought something was odd....so then Michael got Jaime to follow him...Jaime was small and shy and looked up to Michael (the way Elizabeth might have followed Allyssa?? reminds me of that)

and then in the bathroom Michael slit Jaimie's throat and stabbed him 47 times

he thought ahead...he was wearning a jacket and gloves...he got rid of them, hid the knife in his backpack and went back to class...

when Jaime was found by another kid the school was on lockdown but Michael sat there in class...

of course cops found him when they searched each room etc....found the knife

and then found the drawings and the plan....

all the efforts to declare Michael insane, get him off didn't work

the state did offer a deal that would have let him out of prison in 30 something years...but he turned it down and he got life in prison plus 30 years

I think this is a case that is soooo much like Allyssa....I guess it did not get the national attention cause it was two males rather than females

but really...it is so much like this

I personally think it is possible for people to be "wired wrong"....they may be mentally ill but most mentally ill people don't do things like this....these "wired wrong" kids/people have no feelings for others...they are sadistic..
stats show that most serial killers start with animals, neighbors pets, and accelerate from there

I think it is possible that a young person could be like this...and not be that open to change

can Charlie Manson change?? Could Ted Bundy change?? why -ume that a 15 or 16 year old can be "rehabbed"....Allyssa was in "therapy" but what good did that do??

Please google Jaime Gough...Michael Hernandez...I think the similarities are amazing

 

[danni]

How many times do we allow "another chance given" to fail before we get the freaking picture that a leopard doesn't change its spots?

Zeno E. Sims -- sent to prison for eight years for the murder of a 24-year-old-man. Released on parole, in Kansas City, he then murdered DeAntreia L Ashley, a 15-year-old-girl, after a minor traffic accident.

David E. Maust -- Hammond, Illinois. Murdered a 15-year-old boy in 1981. After released murdered three teenage boys, in circumstances similiar to John Wayne Gacy... burying their bodies in concrete in his basement.

Tony Walker -- Texas. Convicted of murder in 1978. Sentenced to 5 years. Murdered a 66 year-old woman and her 81 year-old husband in 1992.

Daniel Joe Hittle -- convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death for murdering a police officer Hittle, 40, was described by witnesses as a man who gleefully killed or tortured animals and who routinely beat women and children. He was on parole for the killings of his adoptive parents in Minnesota when he shot Garland police officer Gerald Walker during a traffic stop. Hittle then sped to East Dallas, where he fatally shot Mary Alice Goss, 39; Richard Joseph Cook Jr., 36; Raymond Scott Gregg, 19; and Goss' 4-year-old daughter Christy Condon.

William Michael "Billy the Kid" Mason -- killed his wife three weeks after he was paroled on another murder conviction.

Tomas G. Ervin -- Sentenced to death in 1990, after conviction of the December 1988 murders of Mildred L. Hodges, 75, and her son, Richard E. Hodges. Bert Hunter, who was arrested along with Ervin pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder charges. Hunter and Ervin had met in the Missouri State Penitentiary, where they were both serving life sentences for previous murders.

Vernon Sattiewhite -- In 1977, Sattiewhite had been sentenced to five years for a murder but was paroled two years later and granted clemency. In 1984, he was convicted of robbery and sentenced to two years in prison but was paroled after less than six months. Soon after he murdered his ex-girlfriend, Sandra Sorrell.

Leroy Schmitz -- convicted of strangling his live-in girlfriend in 1986, during an argument. He was sentenced to 18-20 years for that homicide. He was later convicted of murdering his wife, in Whitefish, Montana in 1999.

Miguel Salas Rodriguez -- charged in the murder of a sheriff's deputy. Sgt. David M. Furrh, 40, in Dec 2000. Rodriguez had a December 1973 conviction of homicide without malice, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. And yet ANOTHER conviction for murder in April 1979, for which he was sentenced to 70 years in prison. Rodriguez was paroled in October 1989.

Tommy Arthur -- sentenced to die in Alabama's electric chair for killing Troy Wicker in a 1982 murder for-hire scheme in Muscle Shoals. Arthur had already been convicted in 1977 of killing the sister of his common-law wife. He had been sentenced to life for that murder.

Benny Lee Chaffin, on December 7, 1984 kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed.

Jimmy Lee Gray -- who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl, kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl.

Corey R. Barton -- In 1983 he murdered 16-year-old Shari-Ann Merton. He received 18 years in prison. He was released after serving 9 years and 8 months. In November 1998, he murdered 27 year-old Sally Harris of North Carolina.

William Coday Jr. -- convicted of murdering 19-year-old Lisa Hullinger in September 1978. After spending just 15 months in a German prison, he was released. In April 2002, he was convicted of having murdered Gloria Gomez on 13 July, 1997.

Melvin Geary -- originally sentenced to L wop, for the stabbing death of a woman in 1973 with a boning knife. Changed to Life.. released... After his release, Geary was subsequently convicted of murdering 71-year-old Edward Colvin of Sparks, again with a boning knife after Colvin took him in.

Kenneth McDuff - Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman. Subsequently released, and murdered as many as 19 young women after his release. Finally executed in 1998 for the murder of Melissa Ann Northrup see ... Who once remarked "Killing a woman is like killing a chicken. They both squawk."

Charles Daniels -- was convicted and sentenced to Life for the 1965 rape and murder of a Louisiana woman. Later having his sentence commuted, he was release. And he again killed another woman, 32-year-old Debbie Tatum.

Timothy Buss -- Murdered five-year-old girl. Sentenced to 25 years in 1981. Paroled 1993. Murdered 10-year-old boy. Condemned 1996

Jack Ferrell -- Florida. Committed Murdered 1981. 15 years to life, 1982. Paroled 1987. Murdered again 1992. Condemned 1993.

Charles Crawford -- Missouri. Life term in 1965 for murder. Paroled 1990. Convicted of murder again in 1994.

John McRae -- Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending on 2 other counts in Florida.

Wayne Henry Garrison, 42, was convicted of 1st-degree murder in the death of Justin Wiles 13, of Tulsa. As a teenager, Garrison had killed two children in Tulsa. Police earlier said the circumstances of those killings were similar to Justin's death.

Dalton Prejean -- killed a taxi driver when he was 14, . When he was 17, he gunned down a state trooper in Lafayette, Louisiana. Despite protests from the American Civil Liberties Union and other abolitionist groups, Prejean was executed for the second murder on May 18, 1990.

Google this kid, he was charged and convicted, then "cured", let out, and guess what. uh ho! Killed again! Imagine that!

http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

There yuou have it thats how these goons in LE work.

You are with in POLICE CUSTODY which means you cannot LEAVE but you are NOT under arrest, OR you are under arrest. Both require MIRANDA.

IF they ask you to simply come down and answer questions and you say CAN I LEAVE IF I WANT and they say YES, then you are not in custody and you are not arrested and they do not have to read you your rights BUT THEN IN THE COURSE of that question session if you confess to a crime it cannot be used because you were not in official custodial situation and you were not under arrest so you didnt have your rights read to you.

IF AB was brought in for friendly questioning and wasnt in custody or under arrrest and wasnt read her miranda anythin she told them would be inadmissable.

My whole question in this issue is "did AB and her guardians KNOW their rights, completely, as soon LE say the first word to them...whether on the phone , in person, at the house, in the police station or wherever.

Lets say LE goes to the house and asks if they may enter & talk and/or look around. AT THAT POINT, did the GM know or could the GM ask for a warrant and/or an attorney right then ? AB didnt count right then (imo) because she is a minor...it was all in her guardians hands.

Hope that makes sense.

So....did the Grandmother and/or Alyssa completely KNOW their rights ? If they DID and talked anyways...so be it.

But if they didnt know their rights.... ??????? Thats where I get blurred.

Ive heard of folks at first glance w/ LE say...aint talking, come back with a warrant or I want a layer, or whatever...simply clam up in the first second ....that person knew they could do that.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

PAX, I have to quibble. If she was questioned, in her home (no word that she was ever "brought in" anywhere), in the same way that anyone with a kitchen window viewing out on that road may have been, then how does Miranda come in?

1. They question her without thinking she is a POI. She volunteers info and then leads them to the grave. No Miranda needed.

2. They ID her as a POI, and question her as such, with guardians and juvie officer present. She talks, and leads them to grave site. No Miranda needed, just happened to find a talkative perp. Nothing inadmissable.

I like the way this is written out....better explains my question.

Does it matter legally if they (grandma & Alyssa) did NOT know their rights ?

Could grandma and/or Alyssa have met LE at the door with a "no comment" - "come back with a warrant" and shut the door in LEs face and called an attorney ?

 

[danni]

My whole question in this issue is "did AB and her guardians KNOW their rights, completely, as soon LE say the first word to them...whether on the phone , in person, at the house, in the police station or wherever.

Lets say LE goes to the house and asks if they may enter & talk and/or look around. AT THAT POINT, did the GM know or could the GM ask for a warrant and/or an attorney right then ? AB didnt count right then (imo) because she is a minor...it was all in her guardians hands.

Hope that makes sense.

So....did the Grandmother and/or Alyssa completely KNOW their rights ? If they DID and talked anyways...so be it.

But if they didnt know their rights.... ??????? Thats where I get blurred.

Ive heard of folks at first glance w/ LE say...aint talking, come back with a warrant or I want a layer, or whatever...simply clam up in the first second ....that person knew they could do that.

I am going to assume from family exp, that they knew their rights.
Being that MB had been in much trouble, and had listed the Lomo drive address at least ONCE, I am sure they are no stranger to LE!

It is no secret that people can not just walk in your home INCLUDING the cops without either A) your permission, or B) a warrant!

I know this and I have never been in trouble with the cops in my life!

And again she was a POI PRIOR to quesitoning. If she was a POI why WOULDN'T they have read her her rights?

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

Not to mention that at any given point along the way they may have read her the Miranda act....

so far there is NOTHING other than posts on this board to suggest that there is any problem with that in this case

in other cases, where there was a problem...it usually comes out pretty quick

for instance...the defense attorney would ask for the case to be dismissed when they brought her into court right???

Could her attorney do that at the RE-arraignment hearing ? Or at any time before the trial ? Or even during the trial ? after the trial ?


I just hope LE did everything to ensure this case is tight & no mistakes.

 

[mia g]

OMG....that is simply chilling about this monster killing his little brother

and again we hear "good grades"....no one would ever "suspect" this would happen

gag me

Now am glad my kids struggled to pull in Bs and Cs..Never thought that would happen!!!! Srry just had to throw that in..lol(They only struggled becasue they were so busy being cute, funny and social, to actually listen and do work)

 

[danni]

I like the way this is written out....better explains my question.

Does it matter legally if they (grandma & Alyssa) did NOT know their rights ?

Could grandma and/or Alyssa have met LE at the door with a "no comment" - "come back with a warrant" and shut the door in LEs face and called an attorney ?

BBM!

Of course they could have! And I don't know that I am so sure they didn't!

Just because ILC said they allowed the cops in with "open arms" doesn't mean thats how it really happened!

Lets role play for a minute.
You have a 15 year old that is a POI in the disappearance of a 9 year old little girl. You have written and physical evidence that point a finger at said 15 year old.
What are you going to do?
I can say (with the few crim classes I have taken) that I am going to bring her and her guardian in, read them their rights, ask them if they understand their rights and move forward from their. If they refuse an attorney then so be it let them puke up info. If they want one then move forward with the case without the 15 year olds confession. Happens all the time!

This is the reason you have to have a guardian present during questioning of a minor. Because they have the right to STOP the questions at any time and ask for an attorney. If a 52?? year old woman does not understand “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THESE RIGHTS AS THEY HAVE BEEN READ TO YOU?” Then I am sorry she had no business with a “mentally ill” child in her home much less raising three other children and running a day care!

If she said no she did not understand her rights then questioning would not have continued!

JMO!

 

[LogicalMinds]

Could her attorney do that at the RE-arraignment hearing ? Or at any time before the trial ? Or even during the trial ? after the trial ?


I just hope LE did everything to ensure this case is tight & no mistakes.

So far the idea that LE has not gone "by the book" has ONLY been on this board. Nothing in the news media suggests it....

and I do think IF there was some mistake made that the defense attorney would be all over that...I know that they were right from the start in the John Couey case here in FL where the keystone kops did bungle the confession, he clearly asked for a lawyer and they went ahead questioning him, they also questioned his 3 "roomies" without Miranda and botched that, they were never charged with anything...horrible

however...not a word of that here

I think that the defense would have tried to get the indictment thrown out IF there was something "wrong"

Since the grand jury returned the indictment, and the case is moving along I think that they did do everything "right"

There doesn't really seem to be any huge "mystery" here...other than "why did she do it?"...

the facts are what they are....seems to me that the prosecution has a LOT of evidence here...this is not a "circumstantial" type case by any means

and again...the idea that she had "help" or a boyfriend involved has only been raised by one or two blog posts and on this board

seems to me that the best a defense attorney can do here is try to strike a plea

in the case of Lionel Tate and Michael Hernandez the family/defendants refused state plea offers for less time, they chose to go with a jury...who promptly gave them life without parole despite their age/s

Just a thought...for those concerned about their OWN kids...just think...IF Allyssa was tried as a juvie, let out at 21, no "record" , free and clear she might be your co-worker....she might answer an ad and be your daughter's college roommate...
she might meet YOUR son and get involved....she might be your future daughter in law and mother of your grandchild....who would want that??

The thought of Allyssa...free and clear...free to work with kids even, is frightning

The "greater good" for society as a whole has to be considered

Michael Hernandez was a super smart kid, popular...who wants him out and about tho?? want him to serve juvie time till 21 then marry YOUR daughter??

want to live next door to an adult Michael or Allyssa ??? he just happened to enjoy gory sadistic sites...she just happened to say her hobby was "killing people"

 

[Jodibug]

I will never understand why people spend so much time trying to figure out how to get murders let go on technicalities.

 

[Csquare]

I will never understand why people spend so much time trying to figure out how to get murders let go on technicalities.

Don't know how they can live with themselves. Calling LE goons is totally disrespectful to LE>

 

[danni]

So now that she has an attorney, are they going to allow recording devices in the room on the 8th?

 

[CementPond]

Sure is! And he worries about the things his son reads here pertaining to how people feel about AB. He doesn't think people should say those things and he doesn't want his son to read it. And yet he seems perfectly fine with his son hearing the disrespectful comments he has to say about LE.

Well what if someone here was in LE and their son or daughter read these forums too and saw what he said about them (LE)? I guess that doesn't matter? Their feeling don't matter? He seems to think that he can say what he wants and no one else can. That we have to be sympathetic to his and his son's feelings but he doesn't have to do the same. BS!!!

Don't know how they can live with themselves. Calling LE goons is totally disrespectful to LE>

 

[Csquare]

I tried to be respectful of each and everyones opinions on here. I have no problem agreeing to disagree. With the exception of the time I was given a TO I have not insulted anyone or was disrespectful to anyone. I was warned that I could not publicly state that I was going to ignore someone. I have abided by that. With that being said, I will not sit here and allow someone to disrespect LE by calling them goons and then coming back on here and acting like a sweet innocent person and not even be man enough to apologize. I have recieved numerous PM's thanking me for sticking to my guns and for my insights. I am trying to provide valuable insight into a most difficult case and I am not going to sit here and let people disrespect the very agency's that have spent countless hours putting this case together because the want to see a murderer walk. Thank you for listening. And as Always this is MOO.

 

[Dal Gal]

I hate to interrupt this slam-fest, but I saw that someone last night was looking for the link to the article that contains the 3pm Friday presser report.

I've got this one bookmarked, as I refer to it time and time again to see when various things developed in the initial investigation:

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=366949&id=366189

I'll be back on Tuesday...going to the baby shower for my future nephew!!!