MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[JLMcKenna83]

I found this article informative regarding LWOP for juveniles..

Life Without Parole: 'Cruel and Unusual' for Teenage Rapist?

Three quarters of the states allow life without parole for juveniles but there are only 111 juveniles serving such sentences. Seventy-seven of those are in Florida, according to a recent study.

 

[lawlady84]

FWIW, what LE considered AB before, during, after questioning is really irrelevant. Personally I think "person of interest" is just a name police spokespeople came up with to avoid libel lawsuits by people suspected of crimes.

The only thing that matters is whether the suspect was "in custody."

In Oregon v. Mathiason, the victim of a robbery told police she suspected her son's friend Mathiason of committing the crime. The police left a message for M to come down to the station for questioning. M came down voluntarily, and a LEO brought him into an office, closed the door, and told him he wasn't under arrest. The officer then told M LE suspected him of a burglary, that Ms truthfulness would be taken into consideration by the district attorney, and lied that LE found Ms fingerprints at the scene. M confessed, then the LEO told him he had to talk to the district attorney and M was free to go. M left. The court found M wasn't "in custody" because he was free to leave - it didn't matter that he was the only suspect and LE planned to arrest him later that day.

 

[not_my_kids]

Hoppyfrog - I'm sorry to ask, but are the posts on sadism on or off topic? I usually know these things...but I'm unsure this time.
TIA.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Wrong. You must be an adult to register and ppost here at WS.

Hoppy
mod

Correct thats why my son reads with me and with my supervision, I wont let him go at it on his own until he is old enough.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Paximus, I am afraid you are mistaken about the LWOP cases. Check the Questions Presented on the SC docket.

Florida v. Sullivan: 1. Does imposition of a life-without-parole sentence on a thirteen-year-old for a non-homicide violate the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishments under the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments, where the freakishly rare imposition of such a sentence reflects a national consensus on the reduced criminal culpability of children?

The Court specifically limited it to non-homicide offenses. As I stated before, perhaps I am on ignore, I am a lawyer and I read the transcript of the oral argument. Justice Kennedy doesn't think its a Constitutional issue at all, and he's often the swing vote in these types of cases.

Thank you.. this is exactly what was stated in the article that I posted. :woohoo:

 

[MDATCA]

I have a few scenerios I would like to know how they are dealt with legally.

1. A 14 year old calls 911 or or the PD and says I would like to report a body. As soon as LE gets there they say, "I just killed X. I hated them and I just wanted them gone. The body is here." They have confessed and told LE where the body is without a word from the LE. They didn't even get a chance to read them their rights or anyting. What happens? Is that a confession? Is it admissable?

2. A victim has just been found shot dead. During routine questioning of the people who were last known with the victim a juvenile breaks down and blurts out a confession and justs keeps going on with info. Even if the juveniles guardian as well as LE are trying to stop them in order to get an atty. What is LE supposed to do to ensure that things are admissable. What if the guardian is tring to get the kid to stop until an atty can be obtained but the kid either wants to get it off their chest or brag about it.

What I am getting at is the possibility that as soon as LE sat down with AB she started volunteering info. I am curious to know what would happen if that is the case. I am wondering if maybe AB had researched things and believed that since she didn't have an atty present that anything she said couldn't be used against her even after being read her rights because she is a juvenile with mental issues.

I wonder if AB put a lot of thought and research into her crime. We know that she had the thoughts in January. That is 10 months she has had to look things up and ask about. I don't think this was a one week plan of dig grave, fill it at earliest convience. IMO there was a lot of pre-plotting of murder, maybe not the way she carried it out but the steps to try and get away with it. Although she didn't want to get away with it where no one would ever know. She wants to own it and wear the "power" like a badge and get as minimal punishment as possible.

It is my impression that AB is smarter and put more thought into this than many are giving her credit for.

Will someone with knowledge of the law please answer me? I am really curious about these situations. I am posting my follow up question as I am sort of still confused about the whole AB is a juvenile but yet a judge declared her an adult.

This happened near where I live and his "confession" stands. Granted he is an adult but I am curious because AB is being charged as an adult. But I want to know why and how her age makes the difference since the judge says she is an adult in kmatters of the crime.

"He came to the police station at 6:20 p.m. [Thursday] and told us that she was dead," Orchard Park Police Chief Andrew Benz said late this morning.

Muzzammil Hassan told police that his wife was at his business, Bridges TV, on Thorn Avenue in the village. Officers went to that location and discovered her body.
snipped from here
http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/578644.html

 

[hoppyfrog]

Hoppyfrog - I'm sorry to ask, but are the posts on sadism on or off topic? I usually know these things...but I'm unsure this time.
TIA.

I saw that and decided not to delete it, but I can't recall my reasoning at the moment. I'll check and then let you know.

Thanks for asking,

Hoppy (ETA: You discussed the relationship between sadism and mental illness, and mental illness is certainly a factor with AB. So I think I'll let those posts stand.)

 

[Angel Who Cares]

Bustamante case documents now on Circuit Court's Web site
Published: Friday, December 4, 2009 5:59 AM CST
<snipped>
Mid-Missourians and others who wish to follow court filings in the Alyssa Bustamante case now can do so from home.

The Cole County Circuit Court this week created a special file on its Web page, posting PDF copies of all documents filed in the case. The site can be found at www.colecountycourts.com/courtnews.htm

"Documents filed in this case will be posted to the Courts Web page within one business day of their filing," Court Administrator Marilue Hemmel reported.

Now the question remains, is it too late to rehabilitate her after committing murder, making anywhere from 25 years to life in prison an acceptable punishment?

Cole County Courts:
http://www.colecountycourts.com/courtnews.htm

Docket information also can be found on the state's Casenet site, www.courts.mo.gov/casenet.

There, users should select the "case number search" option and type in "09AC-CR03516," the number assigned to Bustamante's case.

Article:
http://newstribune.com/articles/2009/12/04/news_local/nt027local03alyssa09.txt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It&#8217;s important to follow 8th amendment cases
December 4, 2009
<snipped>
When turning on the news, we hear of either homicide or manslaughter, and think little of it because murder has sadly become acceptable in the world today.

In Jefferson City, Mo., 15-year-old Alyssa Bustamante knowingly and purposefully murdered her 9-year-old neighbor, Elizabeth Olten, by strangling and cutting her throat for the reason of wanting to know what it felt like to kill another human being. In this case, Bustamante will be punished in order to fulfill deterrence, to be made an example of or to fulfill retribution because bad acts deserve severe punishment.
*Much much more at link!

Article:
http://www.nwmissourinews.com/mobile/opinion/it-s-important-to-follow-8th-amendment-cases-1.950130
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our View: If M.D. took part as alleged, try her as adult
As Mitchell residents wonder whether a 15-year-old girl will be tried as an adult in connection with the murder of another local teen, the state of Missouri is in the midst of an eerily similar case.
In that state, it was determined last week that 15-year-old Alyssa Bustamante will be tried as an adult for the murder of 9-year-old Elizabeth Olten.
Published December 03 2009
<snipped>
In South Dakota, high school student Jasmine Guevara was found dead last month in the trunk of a car in rural Mitchell. Her throat had been cut and she had been stabbed. The car had been set ablaze.

Charged with murder is Alexander Salgado, 20. In addition, a 15-year-old girl known only as M.D. has been arrested.

People have so many questions. What was M.D.&#8217;s role in the case? Will M.D. be tried as an adult? Should she be?

Considering the facts of the case in that state, Missouri got it right when it determined Bustamante should be tried as an adult.

But if authorities truly believe M.D. had an active and vital role in the violent death of a local high school student, then M.D. should stand trial as an adult.

Article:
http://www.mitchellrepublic.com/event/article/id/39079/group/Opinion/

:angel:

 

[W8nC]

Hi everyone! Finally got caught up. Looks like I missed a lot today.

How is everyone this evening?

 

[Csquare]

Hi everyone! Finally got caught up. Looks like I missed a lot today.

How is everyone this evening?

Good here. How was your day?

 

[W8nC]

Great! Thanks for asking...

Looks like were some posts pulled today. I hate it when I miss that stuff, lol. This thread is getting fiesty the last few days!

 

[Prof]

AB's GP's have had to deal with LE before and I am sure they knew how it worked. They may have encouraged her to come clean and let EO's family get closure. JMHO

How do we know that the GPs have had to deal with LE before? -- someone else mentioned MB listing their address once on a court document, but that was for a seatbelt violation, and MB IS an adult

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi Hoppy....sorry but I just was reading the faq....
which says>>>"If you are under the age of 13, the administrator may require that a parent or guardian provide consent before allowing you to complete the registration process. More information about this is available during the registration process."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_register

Maybe they need to change this as it is confusing?? thanks

 

[hoppyfrog]

Hi Hoppy....sorry but I just was reading the faq....
which says>>>"If you are under the age of 13, the administrator may require that a parent or guardian provide consent before allowing you to complete the registration process. More information about this is available during the registration process."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_register

Maybe they need to change this as it is confusing?? thanks

Thanks for pointing this out. I will discuss with Tricia.

Hoppy

 

[LogicalMinds]

Regarding the "nature" or "nurture" question...

I personally think in SOME kids/people it is born in them...hard wired so to speak

I guess that with a GREAT upbringing, lots of love...some of these people subdue their basic impulses...?

I think Allyssa and Michael Hernandez have a LOT in common

one thing that they made a big deal of in his trial was how/why he picked Jamie to kill...Jamie was small, non athletic....and shy.

Michael was fitness obsessed...but he didn't choose a football player

Allyssa was a fencing expert...she didn't choose one of her former fencing teammates or rivals...she chose a little girl, smaller, weaker

just like these sadistic kids who horribly torture kittens and puppies, house cats and pet dogs....ugh...all weak cowards too

many serial killers started that way

you never hear of them catching a bobcat or a cougar to torture do you?? Or show some "cojones">?>> nab a coyote or a wolf?? their ugly little heads would be torn off...but no they are weak sick cowards

which is MHO about Allyssa and Michael....weak, twisted, nasty evil slugs that should not be allowed freedom to hurt others

 

[mominjc]

Great! Thanks for asking...

Looks like were some posts pulled today. I hate it when I miss that stuff, lol. This thread is getting fiesty the last few days!

I don't think u missed much! LOL

 

[Winnts]

Interesting where there is another case where a 17 year old killed a 10 year old and always wanted to know what it was like to kill someone:

Small community of Rising Sun, Ind. rocked by 10-year-old boy's death - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

The details in some of the news articles on the above case are horrific.

I can only imagine how horrific the details will be in the AB case considering there was not only strangulation but also stabbing. Mental illness or not these kids are dangerous to society.

 

[Csquare]

How do we know that the GPs have had to deal with LE before? -- someone else mentioned MB listing their address once on a court document, but that was for a seatbelt violation, and MB IS an adult

MB has had more than seat belt violations. I can't recall all of the charges. If someone else has them please help me and post that info. AB's dad is in jail so there are a couple of occasions that they have dealt with LE

 

[Csquare]

Danni listed a long list of teens that were sentenced for various crimes that were "rehabilitated" set loose only to commit even more henious crimes. It has been my experience dealing with inmates most are never rehabd. I don't have the current numbers but at one time in the past 5 years the return rate in the state of MO was over 80%. I will try and find a more current number but I assure you it has not dropped enough to make me say wow rehab works. AB is a smart kid and I am convinced she does not want to fixed. What are we going to do if she gets a short sentence fools the therapist they pronounce her fixed let her go and she kills again. I guess some will say oooops gusess were wrong on that one. 80% that is 8 out of every 10. I can't tell you how many I saw return over and over. Each time on the way out I would here man I am done with this I learned my lesson. Yeah we are motel 6 and We will leave the light on for you.

 

[ynotdivein]

FWIW, what LE considered AB before, during, after questioning is really irrelevant. Personally I think "person of interest" is just a name police spokespeople came up with to avoid libel lawsuits by people suspected of crimes.

The only thing that matters is whether the suspect was "in custody."

In Oregon v. Mathiason, the victim of a robbery told police she suspected her son's friend Mathiason of committing the crime. The police left a message for M to come down to the station for questioning. M came down voluntarily, and a LEO brought him into an office, closed the door, and told him he wasn't under arrest. The officer then told M LE suspected him of a burglary, that Ms truthfulness would be taken into consideration by the district attorney, and lied that LE found Ms fingerprints at the scene. M confessed, then the LEO told him he had to talk to the district attorney and M was free to go. M left. The court found M wasn't "in custody" because he was free to leave - it didn't matter that he was the only suspect and LE planned to arrest him later that day.

LawLady, just have to say thank you for your posts. Always clear, interesting and informative--and much appreciated. :blowkiss: