MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[ynotdivein]

How do we know that the GPs have had to deal with LE before? -- someone else mentioned MB listing their address once on a court document, but that was for a seatbelt violation, and MB IS an adult

Didn't the GPs move from CA to MO because of/as a result of the problems that AB's parents were having? They did not necessarily ever have to deal with an LE interaction themselves, though I suspect they know more about the court and penal systems than they probably would prefer.

 

[W8nC]

Danni listed a long list of teens that were sentenced for various crimes that were "rehabilitated" set loose only to commit even more henious crimes. It has been my experience dealing with inmates most are never rehabd. I don't have the current numbers but at one time in the past 5 years the return rate in the state of MO was over 80%. I will try and find a more current number but I assure you it has not dropped enough to make me say wow rehab works. AB is a smart kid and I am convinced she does not want to fixed. What are we going to do if she gets a short sentence fools the therapist they pronounce her fixed let her go and she kills again. I guess some will say oooops gusess were wrong on that one. 80% that is 8 out of every 10. I can't tell you how many I saw return over and over. Each time on the way out I would here man I am done with this I learned my lesson. Yeah we are motel 6 and We will leave the light on for you.

CSquare. I don't think all of the folks on Danni's extensive list were teens, but I know at least one of them was, and his 2nd murder was right here in Jefferson City. I have personal knowledge of him and his crimes, if we want to discuss....

 

[winterrose]

Here ya go!
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=367027

"Physical evidence and written evidence led police to develop a person of interest. Police interviewed the person of interest, a older teen, who then led police to Elizabeth's body."

Sorry I didn't add the info to that post. I had added it to like three others yesterday so....

Danni,
Thank you for all the info,especially that list of people,I copied it for reference at another time.I knew I had read they had a person of interest before they found EO,just didn't know where I read that.

I also think her best friend will be a witness for the prosecution that AB had said she wanted to kill someone.She said more on tv the other night,but I'm sure it will all be used to prove it was premeditated long before she dug those two graves.

 

[dnrslucky1]

just like the "grandma" of Allyssa....she did a rotten job with Allyssa's mother..now she has Allyssa....I feel sorry for the victim/s and their families

This post hurts me. I feel very sorry for the victims and their family's.

Calling anyone breeders, egg donors and hoping their other children are locked up is in my opinion "out of hand". As far as the Grandma doing a rotten job, it looks as though she was trying to do the best she could.
Many of these so called criminals are also victims.
I feel for the families of both. Pond scum, who are you referring to.

 

[winterrose]

One of the problems with juveniles is,if they're not tried as an adult,we don't hear about it.Records are sealed,I've heard this before in trials where the media brought it out that a murder suspect had commited murder before,but juvy records were sealed on it.I'm glad many of these teens lately are quickly being charged as adults,hopefully a new trend that will save lives in the future.

 

[ynotdivein]

Hi Hoppy....sorry but I just was reading the faq....
which says>>>"If you are under the age of 13, the administrator may require that a parent or guardian provide consent before allowing you to complete the registration process. More information about this is available during the registration process."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_register

Maybe they need to change this as it is confusing?? thanks

LOL--so one way or another, it seems we are circling around the questions of "when does a person stop being a child and start being an adult, and how the heck should we treat them?" At least we're consistent! :crazy:

 

[W8nC]

LOL--so one way or another, it seems we are circling around the questions of "when does a person stop being a child and start being an adult, and how the heck should we treat them?" At least we're consistent! :crazy:

I don't think is the kind of stuff I'd let my kid (under 13) read. It's not appropriate for any kid! Think of the nightmares!!

 

[winterrose]

The difference is a normal child and a violent murderous child,not a matter of age.But,these boards are not a place for children,anyway.Tricia touched on the age thing at the beginning of this case when some of the minor locals came here to post.

 

[winterrose]

I don't think is the kind of stuff I'd let my kid (under 13) read. It's not appropriate for any kid! Think of the nightmares!!

True that,it keeps me awake many nights with all these cases with children.

 

[W8nC]

True that,it keeps me awake many nights with all these cases with children.

Yes, scares me to death! I have 4 grandkids, 3 of them very pretty little girls, ages 11, 9 and 8. I worry a LOT about them.

 

[eyes4crime]

You guys have posted a lot of interesting hypotheticals! If I get any real work done today I'll go back and see if I can figure out the answers.

But basically, the 5th Amendment states "No person ... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." In the actual Miranda case (Miranda v. Arizona), the Supreme Court said police interrogation at the police station of a suspect in custody is by its nature coercive due to the power differential. Outside of people in law, most people wouldn't know they actually had a right to not talk. So, to "even the playing field," LE must warn suspects that: they have a right to remain silent, whatever they say can be used against them, they have a right to an attorney, and if they can't afford one an attorney will be provided for them.

Since then the Supreme Court has really limited Miranda. Miranda is a "prophylactic measure" designed to protect a suspect's 5th Amendment rights- which means the Court can limit it as it sees fit. A violation of Miranda isn't itself a Constitutional violation.

A smattering of recent cases have held that physical evidence found due to statements made in violation of Miranda is admissible, that statements made in violation of Miranda don't make later statements (after rights are read) automatically inadmissible, that statements made "off the cuff" before Miranda warnings are given are admissible as long as a reasonable person in the suspect's shoes wouldn't have thought he was in custody, etc.

Thank you lawlady84: I'm always appreciative of posts that are clear and informative. There are a few lawyers on here who are teachers at heart; you are one of them. Thanks for all the info.

 

[winterrose]

Yes, scares me to death! I have 4 grandkids, 3 of them very pretty little girls, ages 11, 9 and 8. I worry a LOT about them.

I know,the thing is,I feel we have to take a stand in this country to push the courts to stop putting these people back out to kill again.The RSOs are everywhere around our communities,in our communities and more and more juveniles are committing horrendous crimes.Victims have no rights,people are seeing the suspects as if they are victims,they are not.It needs to change,thier sentences are too light,if they are convicted,at all,they are let out among us.The majority of our country is sick of this and it's time we speak out for the victims.

 

[W8nC]

I know,the thing is,I feel we have to take a stand in this country to push the courts to stop putting these people back out to kill again.The RSOs are everywhere around our communities,in our communities and more and more juveniles are committing horrendous crimes.Victims have no rights,people are seeing the suspects as if they are victims,they are not.It needs to change,thier sentences are too light,if they are convicted,at all,they are let out among us.The majority of our country is sick of this and it's time we speak out for the victims.

Oh, I agree! I wish we could figure out this rise in juvenile crime thing and get to work solving the problem. That's the part that scares me the most. You know, we just aren't naturally afraid of kids, so we let our guard down. Our kids do too. We teach them the whole "stranger danger" thing, but should they be afraid of 12 year olds? They shouldn't, but that's quickly changing!

 

[LogicalMinds]

if you are talking about Allyssa's grandmother, I stand by the fact she did a pretty lousy job with her own kids

I hope that Elizabeth's mom can sue her in a civil suit for allowing a dangerous kid like Allyssa access to children

scary to think that this woman actually ran a day care center in her home??

 

[Jodibug]

I have now received confirmation from two local reporters that the 12/8 hearing IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC "if you can get in". I was told that they expect a lot of people there (however that was not the case last time). So I will be there.

 

[Prof]

Didn't the GPs move from CA to MO because of/as a result of the problems that AB's parents were having? They did not necessarily ever have to deal with an LE interaction themselves, though I suspect they know more about the court and penal systems than they probably would prefer.

I am not sure they moved to MO because of AB's parents -- If anything it was for the children
I did read AB's aunt make reference to the gps moving to MO for AB -- but maybe they had other reasons

If they moved for AB or MB that does not mean that they had any contact with LE --
IMO they are familiar with gaining custody in court, but I do not know how familiar they are with the penal system --
The gps as far as I know did not move to MO until late 2004 or early 2005
There is no casenet record for MB before 2005, and 2005 was a seatbelt violation; other than that in 2006 and 2007 there were other traffic tickets and an eviction -- In 2008 she got in trouble with drugs and alcohol but was put on probation for both, not put in prison

MB had a PD for the last case, and so does AB for this one

 

[KBL100]

I am not sure they moved to MO because of AB's parents -- If anything it was for the children
I did read AB's aunt make reference to the gps moving to MO for AB -- but maybe they had other reasons

If they moved for AB or MB that does not mean that they had any contact with LE --
IMO they are familiar with gaining custody in court, but I do not know how familiar they are with the penal system --
The gps as far as I know did not move to MO until late 2004 or early 2005
There is no casenet record for MB before 2005, and 2005 was a seatbelt violation; other than that in 2006 and 2007 there were other traffic tickets and an eviction -- In 2008 she got in trouble with drugs and alcohol but was put on probation for both, not put in prison

MB had a PD for the last case, and so does AB for this one

I was reading about another case the other day about a grandmother who was concerned about the living conditions of her granddaughter (who lived in another state) and she stated something to the affect that social services told her if the granddaughter had to be removed from the home she would not be sent to live with the grandmother, but put into foster care because they lived in another state. So maybe that is why AB's grandmother had to move to MO to get guardianship of the kids so they wouldn't be put in foster care?

 

[Prof]

MB has had more than seat belt violations. I can't recall all of the charges. If someone else has them please help me and post that info. AB's dad is in jail so there are a couple of occasions that they have dealt with LE

Well, I did post this information before I saw your post -- I responded to another reply to my post I do like to get in the habit of supporting my assertions with evidence as it I can make sure that I am making reasonable conclusions from the facts available, and it gives my posts a tiny bit crediblity at least, even though some of my opinions are not popular

I do think it is a fairly large assumption to state the gps had anything to do with the bio dad, as I have never seen any evidence of such, and a larger assumption that they had to "deal with LE" in regards to AB's bio dad;
there was no testimony in court about AB's relationship to her father, but she was in contact with his aunt; finally, his assault charge in MO was in 2002 when the gps lived in CA

Some of the above information was retrieved from
http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/11/20/news_local/doc5a42local03bustamanteprofile09.prt

(I apologize for my punctuation lacking the period as one of my laptop keys seems to be going through the pause

 

[W8nC]

(I apologize for my punctuation lacking the period as one of my laptop keys seems to be going through the pause

Haha, you're sure your PC isn't breeding, right?

I'm missing my Z key....my cat ate it. For real.

 

[Prof]

I was reading about another case the other day about a grandmother who was concerned about the living conditions of her granddaughter (who lived in another state) and she stated something to the affect that social services told her if the granddaughter had to be removed from the home she would not be sent to live with the grandmother, but put into foster care because they lived in another state. So maybe that is why AB's grandmother had to move to MO to get guardianship of the kids so they wouldn't be put in foster care?

I think this is a good theory, but according to the news reports the gps had guardianship since 2001 and I am fairly sure that they did not move to MO until 2004 or 2005 when they bought the home on Lomo

It is possible that they had guardianship once in CA, and then MB decided to take the kids to MO for a "fresh start" but then the bio dad was charged with assault in 2002, so I do not know when that would have been

Did AB move to MO before the GPs and live with her mother?

I really would like to know more about the gps involvement

I have been wanting to find out how long AB lived in MO

Here's a report on the gps guardianship

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/11/20/news_local/doc5a42local03bustamanteprofile09.prt