MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[human]

I don't know if anyone can be born psychopathic. I think there can be things in their infancy that lead to being a psychopath. Or maybe there are things in the womb. How could I know?

At any rate, if a child has a parent that doesn't respond to needs or is weird in responses such as laughing when a child gets hurt, or smiling when the parent is angry, or many many things of inappropriate response I think that can help a child become a psychopath. I don't know if they get there on their own.

The Unabomber's Mother said that he was brought into the hospital for an operation and the hospital would not let her see or hold him. She said he came back totally different. I imagine then his different behavior brought out different responses in her and so the dance went on.

I'm not saying it's her fault-far from it. But a child elicits a response and a parent responds and so forth.

 

[eyes4crime]

I don't know if anyone can be born psychopathic. I think there can be things in their infancy that lead to being a psychopath. Or maybe there are things in the womb. How could I know?

At any rate, if a child has a parent that doesn't respond to needs or is weird in responses such as laughing when a child gets hurt, or smiling when the parent is angry, or many many things of inappropriate response I think that can help a child become a psychopath. I don't know if they get there on their own.

The Unabomber's Mother said that he was brought into the hospital for an operation and the hospital would not let her see or hold him. She said he came back totally different. I imagine then his different behavior brought out different responses in her and so the dance went on.

I'm not saying it's her fault-far from it. But a child elicits a response and a parent responds and so forth.

You are right - here is what Here says:

The findings for the criminals who were not psychopaths are consistent with the general literature on criminality: That is,
"adverse family influences promote the early development of criminal activity."
...he goes on to say that even a good family life that promotes healthy behavior in their siblings does little to deter psychopaths from their lives of callous self-gratification. pp. 175

He found that psychopaths from unstable backgrounds committed many more violent offenses than did those from stable backgrounds.

Hare found through his research that a ...deprived and disturbed background where violent behavior is common finds a willing pupil in the psychopath for whom violence is not emotionally different from other forms of behavior.

He is saying that criminals learn violent behavior but have the ability to empathize and inhibit impulses. This differentiates them from the psychopath.

I feel certain that if Dr. Robert Hare was from the United States and an upstanding doctor within the APA, his diagnosis would appear in the DSM. mho

 

[human]

I think that there needs to be a lot of studies done on this as I believe there are more issues today than in the past, no matter what some may say on here.

I think that there can be remediation with an infant if the parents can be identified and therapists can work with them on holding an infant, not propping a bottle, responding with eye contact, responding to cries, engaging them with their eyes. That kind of thing.

I think that there is a lot to learn here on remediation with infants, but how to identify those at risk?

Well, I imagine drug using parents, abusive parents, parents who leave their children with nannies for days at a time, that kind of thing might have a red flag.

But no money in our country for that.

 

[eyes4crime]

I think that there needs to be a lot of studies done on this as I believe there are more issues today than in the past, no matter what some may say on here.

I think that there can be remediation with an infant if the parents can be identified and therapists can work with them on holding an infant, not propping a bottle, responding with eye contact, responding to cries, engaging them with their eyes. That kind of thing.

I think that there is a lot to learn here on remediation with infants, but how to identify those at risk?

Well, I imagine drug using parents, abusive parents, parents who leave their children with nannies for days at a time, that kind of thing might have a red flag.

But no money in our country for that.

I certainly undertand what you are saying. Maybe there is a continuum of violence in people. A continuum of deficiency regarding empathy and compassion. Could be the most common is the sociopath or Antisocial Personality Disorder, ending up with the psychopath. The book, The Bad Seed alludes to this possibility. Dr. Hare and his Doctoral students' 35 years of research support the possibility.

No matter what theory I read explaining the violent child nothing explains it like Hare's theory. Psychoanalytic, behavioral, cognitive, developmental, psychosexual, attachment, cueing, etc simply don't explain the 'how' and 'why' of failing to have empathy, compassion, and a conscience and how the lack of it can be so obvious at such early ages.

As the violent child becomes more and more common, I will certainly keep his theory front and center. Thanks for chatting human.

 

[human]

I read the book The Sociopath Next Door. It was easy to read. I read it last summer but don't remember much about who the author cites-if she cited Hare or not.

I always thought that RAD children were sociopaths, but she says they are not. She said that RAD children are not pleasant, which I have found to be true. She says that the sociopath can be charming. They all aren't serial killers.

Some people have said that a psychopath and sociopath are not the same-are different categories.

I just watched a therapist work with an infant. It was really interesting the observations that she made with the mother's incorrect responses to the infant's cues. Stuff I never paid attention to. I really saw first hand how incorrect responses to an infants cues can really goof them up and start the infant parent interaction going down a bad direction.

This can happen if the mother is under severe stress and can't focus outside of herself, or there is illness in the family, on and on.

Once the infant starts giving incorrect cues, then the parent starts incorrect cues, etc.

But I haven't read Hare's book and maybe one day when I have the stomach for it I will. All I know is, we have to do a lot more for infants than we do. And children all along the way.

Just like we check for lead and PKU, maybe we need to start checking for parent infant interaction right in the hospital while mothers are in for their drive by deliveries.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Interesting stuff...

nature or nurture??

Ted Bundy was an example of a "charmer"

I do wonder if maybe a good and loving upbringing only results in a different but also bad path...like Bernie Madoff...or a guy here in florida, well respected lawyer who just was arrested for a huge ponzi scheme??

Maybe Allysaa's parents also have these ...tendencies...sociopath or psychopath or whatever??? Maybe some of it is inheirited...and then due to their own drugs/mental problems and their poor uninvolved parenting she turned out even worse??

I still feel there had to be some red flags that no one was seeing...or didn't want to see??

 

[Elley Mae]

Interesting stuff...

nature or nurture??

Ted Bundy was an example of a "charmer"

I do wonder if maybe a good and loving upbringing only results in a different but also bad path...like Bernie Madoff...or a guy here in florida, well respected lawyer who just was arrested for a huge ponzi scheme??

Maybe Allysaa's parents also have these ...tendencies...sociopath or psychopath or whatever??? Maybe some of it is inheirited...and then due to their own drugs/mental problems and their poor uninvolved parenting she turned out even worse??

I still feel there had to be some red flags that no one was seeing...or didn't want to see??

I agree with your last sentence, "didn't want to see" I have seen this first hand with younger sister, my mother would never admit that she was a loser, and user. She would talk like she was the shining star and her life was just perfect and anything that went wrong was not her fault. I feel that most ppl can't accept that a "blood" relative is capable of things that would shine a bad light on the "family".

 

[Elley Mae]

In moo the key to that is they don't say when they were given the written evidene. Guess that will come out at trial

IIRC, there was a 12:00 presser that day, I feel it was at that presser that they (LE) received that "written information" and it was at the 3:00


presser that it was announced they had a person arrested.

 

[Prof]

IIRC, there was a 12:00 presser that day, I feel it was at that presser that they (LE) received that "written information" and it was at the 3:00


presser that it was announced they had a person arrested.

Nope, that is not correct

Friday, October 23rd there were two press conferences, one a 10 and one at 3:00 pm

The sheriff spoke about strong interviews with RSOs, search efforts, and EO's mother in the 10 am press conference, and in the 3 pm news conference he specifically stated that AFTER the morning press conference they received written evidence, analyzed that evidence, came up with a poi, found the poi, interviewed a poi, and then the poi led them to the body

I posted the links to the videos of both pressers early in this thread 13


Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13 - Page 2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Here are the links to the videos:

Friday - October 23 - 10 AM News Conference Sheriff White
http://video.krcg.com/global/video/...vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=4238405&at1=News - Special Coverage&h1=10 a.m. Press Conference with the Cole County Sheriff's Department&flvUri=&partnerclipid=

Friday October 23 - 3 PM News Conference - Sheriff White http://usat.gannett.a.mms.mavenapps...iveproduction&maven_referralObject=1305514121

 

[MDATCA]

I am very anxoius as to what the hearing tomorrow will cover. I hope we get something from it. I keep going back and forth that it is going to be a huge nothing to thinking something big could be revealed.

I wish I was local to the area so I could attend and show support for Elizabeth and her family. Thank you to all you JC WSer's who are going and reporting the info to us. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

 

[Kimster]

Good morning all!

This isn't one of my moderated threads, but I come here often as I'm interested in the case.

Please don't discuss other members on the forum. I'm looking forward to when they return just as y'all do. In the meantime, they deserve their privacy. Thanks! :blowkiss:

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Sorry, I am behind...

Question: is today Alyssa's status hearing for a public defender?

 

[W8nC]

Sorry, I am behind...

Question: is today Alyssa's status hearing for a public defender?

No, rescheduled for tomorrow.

 

[Prof]

No, rescheduled for tomorrow.

Has not the court date for tomorrow been changed to a re-arraignment? or is it both a re-arraignment and a status hearing?

Thanks!

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

Sorry, I am behind...

Question: is today Alyssa's status hearing for a public defender?

I have no answer. Im trying to catch up also.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

Court records show a new arraignment scheduled for 10:30 a.m. Tuesday, replacing a Monday status hearing. "This type of proceeding normally lasts less than five minutes," Hemmel noted.

Docket information also can be found on the state's Casenet site, www.courts.mo.gov/casenet.

There, users should select the "case number search" option and type in "09AC-CR03516," the number assigned to Bustamante's case.

That link will provide access to a listing of docket entries and scheduled events in the case.

http://newstribune.com/articles/2009/12/04/news_local/nt027local03alyssa09.txt

 

[Jodibug]

I have emailed the office of the circuit court to see if cell phones are again barred from the courthouse tomorrow. Since she is now certified as an adult, AND has representation I am hoping I can carry it.... well, because I hate being without my phone!

But if not then I will have to leave it at my office while I am gone and won't be able to update until I come back to work.

If I can take my phone in the courthouse then I will call my sister (Steph572) the minute the hearing is out.

CSquare is planning to be there also.

 

[mominjc]

CSquare is planning to be there also.

I may be joining you 2 as well since the court house is within walking distance from my office. Let us know if we have to keep the nukes at home this time too! LOL

 

[hoppyfrog]

Good afternoon, everyone!

Please stay on topic.

If you ever want to go off-topic, go take a look around The Jury Room. Seriously, there are a ton of interesting off-topic threads there. It's one of my fav places.

Hoppy
mod

 

[Jodibug]

I may be joining you 2 as well since the court house is within walking distance from my office. Let us know if we have to keep the nukes at home this time too! LOL

Hope to see you there.