MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #4

[lillygator]

what a horrible way to die....this girl needs to have her picture out there so the rest of the world can see her. she should have no protection or rigths. I hope she is in general population.

 

[Bibliophile]

I really wonder why she killed her. What was so bad she felt like she couldnt take it back?

I think this is the type of murder where you are not going to find any rational reason for the killing. I think AB had a lot of sick, dark thoughts and acted on them. Sadly, Elizabeth was an easy target.

Its horrible, its sickening and its very, very sad.

 

[akashana]

LOL! I don't blame you. Thank God my daughter isn't into that stuff (she doesn't like hip hop of any sort)...just regular rock. I first heard ICP like 10 years ago (insane in the membrane) and I couldn't stand them! I believe in giving the kids some freedom of expression and letting them develop their own tastes, but there's also a line

akashana - As far as AB and the ICP sub-culture....I don't get how you are linking the two???

It was mentioned in comments at another news site that allegedly some of AB's friends were fans of the subculture. I was actually trying not to link to them intentionally, because I think it's basically just theatrical facepainting for most of them.

 

[tlcya]

I think this is the type of murder where you are not going to find any rational reason for the killing. I think AB had a lot of sick, dark thoughts and acted on them. Sadly, Elizabeth was an easy target.

Its horrible, its sickening and its very, very sad.

Mark my words. It will be some completely senseless comment. Something completely inoccuous, such as "whenever that kid comes over to play with my sister I always get blamed for everything" or "I over heard her say this to my sister about me"

That is the tragedy. It will be some totally random thing. I am sure Elizabeth had not the first clue at how deeply this girl probably hated her or why. Poor baby never saw it coming, and why would she.

 

[sdw]

That is very interesting. I wonder more about the method with knowing that and what the comment after this article says. Is it safe for you to direct us to that link or is it a no-no one?

Actually I went to the site and those were deleted but it was here

http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_s...rl-suspected-in-elizabeth-olten-homicide.html

I couldn't google it on my own, tried ymca/fencing,her name/mo

No luck but you guys will find it You guys are GOOD!

 

[Deleted member 718]

I don't think I will ever understand "why" she did it. I'm curious "how" she did it. As some locals have posted, it's a heavily wooded area full of gullies and brambles. It's been said there was a pre-dug grave. I'm thinking she's had access to a four-wheeler or similar.

I live in a similar area and most everyone has coveralls and leather gloves to protect from the elements. I'm willing to wager they found a similar outfit hidden in the woods. She could have worn it, done the crime, disposed of it and then headed home. Otherwise, like some have posted, wouldn't she have come home covered in scratches and blood?

 

[sdw]

Actually I went to the site and those were deleted but it was here

http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_s...rl-suspected-in-elizabeth-olten-homicide.html

I couldn't google it on my own, tried ymca/fencing,her name/mo

No luck but you guys will find it You guys are GOOD!

Wait if you want to pay $2.95 I think you can get it here

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...rpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no

 

[Mendara]

I don't think I will ever understand "why" she did it. I'm curious "how" she did it. As some locals have posted, it's a heavily wooded area full of gullies and brambles. It's been said there was a pre-dug grave. I'm thinking she's had access to a four-wheeler or similar.

I live in a similar area and most everyone has coveralls and leather gloves to protect from the elements. I'm willing to wager they found a similar outfit hidden in the woods. She could have worn it, done the crime, disposed of it and then headed home. Otherwise, like some have posted, wouldn't she have come home covered in scratches and blood?

I wonder if she did this alone? I just have a feeling she had some help or there were spectators involved and she lead authorites to the body out of fear. I guess we shall see. I just don't see her doing this without an audience or selfish reason.

 

[MDATCA]

Welcome out of lurk mode my dear.

You do raise some very interesting points. All of which I had the answers to.

I too have wondered about them. They are victims also. I know many feel that they have some responsibility for this but I don't. Even if they do/did the other children in the household don't. I am sorry but I truly think they were doing the best they could. I do not think that they just went on day to day knowing they were raising a would be killer. They have other kids in that house that they would want to protect. Maybe they missed some flags but so did many others. Love blinds us to many faults.

I know from experience and from other people I know that as a parent your hands are tied. You are legally responsible for them and their actions but you can't force them into help. Even if you get them there it doesn't mean that they are participating. As the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink.

 

[Jules71]

These are some early behaviors of a sociopath - I am sure some of these behaviors were evident with AB:

Most psychopaths begin to exhibit serious behavioral problems at an early age. These might include persistent lying, cheating, theft, fire setting, truancy, class disruption, substance abuse, vandalism, violence, bullying, running away and precocious sexuality. Because many children exhibit some of these behaviors at one time or another, especially children raised in violent neighborhoods or in disrupted or abusive families, it is important to emphasize that the psychopaths's history of such behaviors is more extensive and serious than that of most others, even when compared with those of siblings and friends raised in similar settings.

Early cruelty to animals is usually a sign of serious emotional or behavioral problems. Cruelty to other children—including siblings—is often part of the young psychopaths's inability to experience the sort of empathy that checks normal people's impulses to inflict pain, even when enraged.

 

[Lola]

This case will never make it to trial IMO. I am certain the community needs some kind of closure and understanding but I wonder if it will ever be delivered. Given what little we have learned about the horrific nature of this crime, the apparent pre-meditation (evidenced it would seem by written evidence), a trial will serve little purpose. No doubt there is a proliferation of forensic evidence, the only thing left to the defense will be mitigation. This is another one of those horrible cases of which we seem to have seen far too many of in recent months. Heaven help us all.

 

[Capri]

If her attorney Mr. Valentine is saying she won't get a fair trial once her name is revealed, then how does anyone get a fair trial?

He's a defense attorney, that's his job. They throw out all kinds of statements hoping to get the best outcome for their clients. It's not about fairness, it's about pulling out all the stops and trying all legal maneuvers for their client to get the best outcome.

 

[Capri]

These are some early behaviors of a sociopath - I am sure some of these behaviors were evident with AB:

Hmmm...seems like I read on AB's twitter that they had just gotten new kittens a few months ago. Wonder how those kittens are doing?

 

[pjgrrrl]

Hello all, and I would just like to welcome myself. I have helped with the Victoria Stafford case as well as currently discussing on the Morgan Harrington case, but have looked over many forums in the past couple of days.

Many of you have very legit points, and very intelligent conclusions, however, I am a little offended at AB's appearance that keeps being brought forward in some responses on this board.
I would like to clarify a couple of things, she is NOT goth, not even a little bit. The style you are seeing is either classified as Emo or Scene. This is the trend everywhere right now, and has been for years now- but in no way was this girl a goth. I get coined goth all of the time. I am now in my twenties with two post-secondary diplomas and certifications in various courses. I own my own business and have never had a run in with the LE or with anyone else for that matter. I am your "stereotypical" goth; black hair, pale skin, dark makeup at times (not black lipstick, but red), typical "black" fashion. I listen to a variety of music, including yes, Marilyn Manson, a lot of underground industrial bands, but even bands from the Cure, Dead can Dance, to AHA or Johnny Cash. I recently saw Manson in concert and can't say that anyone at his concert was disrespectful in the least. I think a lot of the people on this board can be ignorant to the fact that they lump "goth" people into something that is negative. I am not negative. I hold a very successful life, and even though I had a bad childhood, it ultimately comes down to the choice that you yourself can make, and ONLY you.

These comments of ritual killings (like the WM3 which I believe are innocent boys), rarely happen, but I am not going to disagree that a lot of these killings end up being men or women dressed in "dark" fashions. A lot of "troubled" teenagers seek this route to emanate how they feel on the inside, but like a lot of us, we do it because we like it. It's no different than you always buying that "red shirt" because you love red! We are drawn to dark shades, and eclectic jewelry (well I am anyway) because that is what appeals to me. Do I call myself goth? No. I call myself being me.

Honestly, it's a culture, much like teenage girls going to a popular dance bar and dressing in slinky one-shouldered tops and skinny jeans with heels... Only we may frequent a different type of club that listens to a different beat- but we are both still dancing, it's just the matter in which it's done.

I also would like to mention that I was a cutter at an age where I didn't even know there was a term for it. I hid it from everybody, I wore long sleeves and pants in the summer, no one ever found out. I can say from experience that some people do it for attention, but I can also say that there are many who do not. It makes the person feel like they are getting the pain out, much like an arguing person punching someone in the face would (again, only in a different medium).

So my whole idea is, that no matter how this girl dressed or what medical condition she may or may not have, all of this boils down to the lack of parenting of this girl. Luckily my parents were always by my side, and hence me turning out successfully. I cannot say that this girl had a good life at all, and sometimes people are too weak to turn their lives around like I chose to do. Most serial killers had horrible childhoods- do the math here and stop pointing fingers at AB's attire.

Thank you

 

[MDATCA]

The more I hear/read the more questions I have.

If in fact the grave was dug last week and planned out was it all with Elizabeth in mind? Or do you think if Elizabeth wasn't there it could have been whoever was available?

Was it planned down to everything or did AB have a partial plan and desire and the oppurtunity happen and she jumped on it?

Did she choose Elizabeth for any particualr reason? Was she angry with her or dislike her?

I wonder because while it she did hide it reasonably well she didn't do cover enouh to get away with it. I believe she is intellegent and would have been able to make this a lot more complicated if she had wanted to. So I think she jumped the gun on her plans and couldn't hold her sick desire any longer.

 

[Mendara]

pjgrrrl,

I know a lot of the time people come on here to defend their own style and music choices and feel really weird being lumped into a category along with a killer. However, you and many others may be able to handle such music, style and cultures, whereas a weaker more broken person may not be able to separate the fantasy from reality and in cases like those our comments on music, style and dress can come into play as direct influences of this weaker person who unlike you did not quickly put together that watching a movie about a vampire sucking the blood dry from a human was just a movie and maybe not so much fun in real life nor glamorous.

I completely understand that "goth" is a term used to quickly give a blanket name to a teen who dresses in black and listens to dark music and in many cases "goth" is far more complicated and our blanket use of the word can offend true goths - but it seems lately weaker people do gravitate toward this group for acceptance and to rebel against their parents, school etc.

In this case AB can fit the description of one of those weaker people who glamorized blood and violence and may have thought it to be cool.
But we have yet to find out what really happened.

Try not to get too mad at us.

 

[tlcya]

pjgrrrl, Welcome to the discussion and thanks for your perspective. I am sure your parents had everything to do with you becoming an articulate, well spoken contributor to this thread. Hats off to your parents for raising an independent, free thinking, intelligent young lady.

 

[sleuthysleuth]

The more I hear/read the more questions I have.

If in fact the grave was dug last week and planned out was it all with Elizabeth in mind? Or do you think if Elizabeth wasn't there it could have been whoever was available?

Was it planned down to everything or did AB have a partial plan and desire and the oppurtunity happen and she jumped on it?

QUOTE]

I was JUST wondering the same exact thing!

 

[tlcya]

The more I hear/read the more questions I have.

If in fact the grave was dug last week and planned out was it all with Elizabeth in mind? Or do you think if Elizabeth wasn't there it could have been whoever was available?

you raise a really good question. I guess it depends on whether it was personal or just a crime of opportunity. It will be interesting to see as the case unfolds.

 

[pjgrrrl]

But like I said, Mendara, she is not what is considered to be goth. She would be Emo or Scene. Nothing about this girl is goth, that I can tell you. However, it still seems to be irrelevant. This incident occurred because this girl's parents were not in the picture to raise a proper daughter. JMO.