MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #5

[Jersey*Girl]

This is strictly my opinion. But let's generalize for a moment. Being a former goth kid in high school (the same one AB went to) I can say that when I was there that the three main groups of kids that committed violent crimes in that HS were the goths, emo/scene kids, and the punk-rockers. AB seems to be emo/scene.

Also, AB always seemed to be less outgoing to adults, and extremely distrusting of them. However the boys are the exact opposite, and it seems like some adults have to push them away.

I know what she did was incredibly wrong on all accounts, but with everything I've found out about her just by the internet, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is a child of abuse...mentally & physically. She withoutadoubt has mental issues but she should still know right from wrong. Elizabeth is dead b/c of AB, no matter how much we disect AB's upbringing (or lack of - with the wonderful exception of her grandparents).

I was never into goth or emo stuff, but I know some kids that are. Can you tell me from your experience is most emo kids are cutters? I thought goth was the love of horror or the unknown, like maybe it was exciting to mix the social norm with dark (horror) looks with flashniness from the 80's...but this was only figurative. I always thought emo kids were into death & cutting literally...making themselves hurt in order to feel better, probably b/c they suffered abuse or neglect at some point. Could you explain to me the difference, or if I'm a little bit on target? Thanks a bunch!

 

[hoppyfrog]

Sorry, Hoppy, and animal, I should have stated that is the rumor I've heard from several family friends.

As for being local, I moved to columbia a few years ago, but I still go to church and have family from there, and I see them (family) almost every weekend.

Being a new-member I'm not familiar with posting rules. What's the link to the TOS for the website?

Here it is:

Terms of Service - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Hoppy

 

[Kimster]

From the way I've understood it, goth is more of a medieval style while emo is much like it's title, an "emotional" style. Cutting and such is more often associated with "emo", as is writing sad poetry and such. To me, "emo" sounds kinda like the "beatnik" era in the early 60s. "Goth" seems more like a segment of a Renaissance Faire.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Capri]

Ilovecookies- Definitely email Tricia (link upthread by Animal), so you can post more here. Seems like you have a lot of valid input.

 

[danni]

I know what she did was incredibly wrong on all accounts, but with everything I've found out about her just by the internet, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is a child of abuse...mentally & physically. She withoutadoubt has mental issues but she should still know right from wrong. Elizabeth is dead b/c of AB, no matter how much we disect AB's upbringing (or lack of - with the wonderful exception of her grandparents).

I was never into goth or emo stuff, but I know some kids that are. Can you tell me from your experience is most emo kids are cutters? I thought goth was the love of horror or the unknown, like maybe it was exciting to mix the social norm with dark (horror) looks with flashniness from the 80's...but this was only figurative. I always thought emo kids were into death & cutting literally...making themselves hurt in order to feel better, probably b/c they suffered abuse or neglect at some point. Could you explain to me the difference, or if I'm a little bit on target? Thanks a bunch!

I can't talk for EVERYONE but I can talk from my person exp. My little sister use to dress goth, her and her husband owned hearses, went to hearse conventions, got married in a cemetery (yes that was my little sister that was all over the news). Her husand was/is an IT manager for a LARGE brokerage co. in St. Louis. My little sister is a manager at Dierberg's. Looking at them you would never know what they did in their personal time. in the last year she found out her husand was cheating, and they are going through a divorce, she now hangs out with an Emo crowd. She had her hair cut short, and wears skinny jeans instead of corsets, micro minis and fishnets. She is not a cutter. She was NEVER abused as a child and although her husband cheated, he never abused her.

I think just like everything in life, some take it farther than others. Obviously my sister just likes the "look" but with the look she gets the stereotype before people get to know her. In reality she has done better for herself then what I can even admit that I have done! Kinda hard to admit but it is what it is!

 

[Jersey*Girl]

From the way I've understood it, goth is more of a medieval style while emo is much like it's title, an "emotional" style. Cutting and such is more often associated with "emo", as is writing sad poetry and such. To me, "emo" sounds kinda like the "beatnik" era in the early 60s. "Goth" seems more like a segment of a Renaissance Faire.

Hope that makes sense.

What a great analogy, Kimster.

Something else that I've been thinking about. When speaking of victims, does anyone ever wonder how the kids in school feel that went to school with AB? If the rumors are in fact true that she was a cutter, I can imagine some of the kids she went to school with are wishing they could have done something to help prevent this...like maybe make phone calls to to their county family services or something, or tell their guidance counsellors or teachers...maybe try to befriend her to help her. I'm certainly glad that the school has help that were brought in in case some children needed it, to deal with this emotionally. Going to school with a cutter (that turned out to be a murderer) that you can't help would probably have the same sort of impact that a parental divorce could have - the blame game. I hope AB's fellow friends & students don't blame themselves, I really hope & pray they will be ok someday. Unfortunately, as we see here on WS, these kids will probably remember this for the rest of their lives. That makes them victims, also. May peace find them soon.

 

[danni]

What a great analogy, Kimster.

Something else that I've been thinking about. When speaking of victims, does anyone ever wonder how the kids in school feel that went to school with AB? If the rumors are in fact true that she was a cutter, I can imagine some of the kids she went to school with are wishing they could have done something to help prevent this...like maybe make phone calls to to their county family services or something, or tell their guidance counsellors or teachers...maybe try to befriend her to help her. I'm certainly glad that the school has help that were brought in in case some children needed it, to deal with this emotionally. Going to school with a cutter (that turned out to be a murderer) that you can't help would probably have the same sort of impact that a parental divorce could have - the blame game. I hope AB's fellow friends & students don't blame themselves, I really hope & pray they will be ok someday. Unfortunately, as we see here on WS, these kids will probably remember this for the rest of their lives. That makes them victims, also. May peace find them soon.

Its weird though because some of these kids seem to "look up" to her since doing this, listing her as their "hero" on social networking sites. Kinda sick if you ask me.

If nothing else in this community you would think that this would cause parents to get involved in their teens lives, look at their myspace, facebook, twitter. HELLO if we can see it SO CAN THEY even without a password. Its one thing when kids sneek and do what they want behind their parents backs without the parents knowing about it. It is a whole other thing when it is right under the parents nose and the parents just don't care enough to look! Then if/when one of these children commits suicide or murder then the family will wonder "what happened".

 

[Capri]

Can you imagine Elizabeth's playmate (allegedly AB's sister) & what her life will be like now. If her sister truly killed her friend, she'll never be the same. All the therapy in the world won't make that go away.

 

[Kimster]

Its weird though because some of these kids seem to "look up" to her since doing this, listing her as their "hero" on social networking sites. Kinda sick if you ask me.

If nothing else in this community you would think that this would cause parents to get involved in their teens lives, look at their myspace, facebook, twitter. HELLO if we can see it SO CAN THEY even without a password. Its one thing when kids sneek and do what they want behind their parents backs without the parents knowing about it. It is a whole other thing when it is right under the parents nose and the parents just don't care enough to look! Then if/when one of these children commits suicide or murder then the family will wonder "what happened".

This post needs to be read by every parent viewing this thread. Please take it seriously if you are raising kids!

 

[tlcya]

Can you imagine Elizabeth's playmate (allegedly AB's sister) & what her life will be like now. If her sister truly killed her friend, she'll never be the same. All the therapy in the world won't make that go away.

True. 1st, whatever life experiences/traumas helped form AB were also probably experienced, at least in part, by this child as well. Add to that having to live with the knowledge that (if AB did indeed do this) your big sissy is a murderer, and not just a murderer but the murderer of your friend and playmate. The poor thing. Talk about counselling - can there ever be enough?

 

[Tricia]

Attention Websleuths.com members,

I just had a very nice conversation with our new member, I Love Cookies.

ILC told me they know the alleged perp's family and the alleged perp herself.

ILC told me several things that lead me to believe with as much certainty as I can that ILC does know the family and I Love Cookies claims are true. However, short of hiring a Private Investigator nothing is 100 percent but I do believe I Love Cookies.

I Love Cookies will be coming back on this thread to post interesting information that no one has yet. I am not trying to get your hopes up here, I doubt if it is anything that will break the case but I Love Cookies does have some very interesting insights into the alleged perp and her family.

Tricia

 

[Robyn623]

Welcome, ILoveCookies! I am looking forward to hearing more from you.

 

[gaia227]

I know what she did was incredibly wrong on all accounts, but with everything I've found out about her just by the internet, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is a child of abuse...mentally & physically. She withoutadoubt has mental issues but she should still know right from wrong. Elizabeth is dead b/c of AB, no matter how much we disect AB's upbringing (or lack of - with the wonderful exception of her grandparents).

I was never into goth or emo stuff, but I know some kids that are. Can you tell me from your experience is most emo kids are cutters? I thought goth was the love of horror or the unknown, like maybe it was exciting to mix the social norm with dark (horror) looks with flashniness from the 80's...but this was only figurative. I always thought emo kids were into death & cutting literally...making themselves hurt in order to feel better, probably b/c they suffered abuse or neglect at some point. Could you explain to me the difference, or if I'm a little bit on target? Thanks a bunch!

I really think it depends on the person. For some 'goth' or 'emo' is just a style of dress they choose to wear and really just want a group to identify with and it ends there. A passing fad. And i think others take it more seriously and look at it as a lifestyle. I knew a lot of goth types growing up and typically they were much less violent or suicidal and tended to just be more emotional but there are exceptions to every thing and I am sure there are some teens who take the whole idea to extreme. I guess when I was a teenager I would have been considered 'emo' (back then it was called 'alternative') because of the way I dressed, I listened to more emotionally 'deep' music, wrote teenage angst ridden poetry, etc but I was a pretty normal teenager. I never cut myself nor did any of my friends. We were more peaceful hippie types mentally. We would make PB&J sandwiches on the weekends and go hand them out to the homeless before we would go hang out at the coffee-shop to boy-watch. My best friend and I volunteered at an animal shelter trying to find animals good homes. For some looking at as walking down the street they probably thought we were stoners who sat around drawing pictures of killing animals instead of trying to save them.

In this girls case it sounds likely she did not have a good upbringing and suffered emotional, physical and/or mental abuse and she turned towards this sub-culture and really took it all the way to the extreme.

This all JMO, of course

 

[tlcya]

I look forward to your unique perspective and your insights into the situation. Welcome ILC

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Its weird though because some of these kids seem to "look up" to her since doing this, listing her as their "hero" on social networking sites. Kinda sick if you ask me.

If nothing else in this community you would think that this would cause parents to get involved in their teens lives, look at their myspace, facebook, twitter. HELLO if we can see it SO CAN THEY even without a password. Its one thing when kids sneek and do what they want behind their parents backs without the parents knowing about it. It is a whole other thing when it is right under the parents nose and the parents just don't care enough to look! Then if/when one of these children commits suicide or murder then the family will wonder "what happened".

what...tha...fah...areyoufrigginkiddinme? What is wrong with people? I would hope every single parent of a student in that general area would be thoroughly involved with checking up on their children, especially knowing the impact Elizabeth's death has had on everyone in her community. It's not even remotely a "joke" to make her a hero. That's sick. Still, it would be an injustice for those parents to not do something about what their children are typing. Makes me want to look up each & every phone number & call these parents myself...at least they wouldn't be able to say they weren't aware...

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Can you imagine Elizabeth's playmate (allegedly AB's sister) & what her life will be like now. If her sister truly killed her friend, she'll never be the same. All the therapy in the world won't make that go away.

Absolutely! I agree! This was the first thing I stated. Also, if they really did have an argument that day, then the poor thing would feel even more guilty. Sometimes I wish I was Samantha Stevens & could just twitch my nose to make everything alright.

 

[Capri]

ILoveCookies- Can you say how AB's sister (Elizabeth Olten's playmate/friend) is doing? It must be horrible for her.

 

[hoppyfrog]

I wonder how JCHS is doing. I fear for the safety of everyone (teachers included) in that school. It has been a disaster waiting to happen for years, and I fear that this might be the incident that sends it over the edge.

Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled and don't make any sense. and all this is jmo

I'm so very glad you are here, ILC.

Regarding your quote above: why do you fear for everyone's safety? Why is it "a disaster waiting to happen?"

Thank you for your insights!

:blowkiss:

Hoppy

 

[Capri]

Don't most high schools have a lot of "angsty kids", though?

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Tricia, just wanted to say thanks for letting ILC post insight. It's so much better sleuthing when all angles are covered.