MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #6

[MDATCA]

I missed where it was said that the AB family didn't know where the 6 yo was. The last I remember was that ILC said the AB family didn't even know Elizabeth was there. The only thing that I read in the news that contradicted that is the the GF sent her home. It was never said when he sent her home though. EO could have came to the door and asked if 6yo can play and GF told her no, not today and sent her on her way. I think everyone interpreted it that they were playing and GF sent her home because it was time or that they had an issue. With the time it would take to do what happened. I wonder if she didn't come to play with 6 yo was told she can't play, started home and that is when AB called her back for whatever reason.

I can think of many ways that she could have coaxed Elizabeth into the woods even if EO was scared of them. She could have said an animal/pet was hurt, stuck or lost. She could have been friendly with her and Elizabeth went to be with the *cool* teenager. AB could have grabbed a belonging from EO and ran into the woods. From what I have read it wasn't as deep in the woods as we were first believed. If in fact it was 400 yards from the AB house then you would still be able to see the houses and what EO thought was safe. Obviously not but from the point of view of a child scared of the woods seeing "civilization" wold be a comfort.

We don't know what kind of relationship EO had with AB. At 9 girls tend to idolize teen girls. Why do you think Miley Cyrus is so popular. They could have even been neighborhood buddies. I can easily picture summer evenings all the kids playing together. AB's brothers and little sis and EO and her brother then out of boredom or the need to feel in power AB would join them. I can remember things like this when I was a kid and around our neighborhood when my kids were younger.

I wonder if there was a struggle. If the cause of death is how I read then there had to have been. That act requires strength. It is not quick and I would say that the victim would be fighting and struggling making it even more difficult. From pics and description EO was not a tiny child and looked to be physically fit. AB on the other hand appears petite. That is a big reason why I believe the grave site and the scene of the crime is at the same place. If AB had to transport the body I would think there would have been many clues leading right to the grave site. Also if there had been a struggle there would have been clues as well as defensive injuries on AB which would have been a HUGE sign to LE.. AB had to have stunned EO somehow. I think EO also had to trust AB or EO's natural instinct would have had her on alert.

 

[MDATCA]

I don't think it's out of the realm. I wonder if the 20ish guy is a bf to someone else living in the house. :waitasec:

That or someone's husband.

 

[Kamille]

The post on the other site makes perfect sense, tho....noone wrote a letter....it was AB's own "creative writing" that turned her in. The teacher gave it to LE, horrified, then that coupled with his illness, just pushed him over. LE never said "a letter", they said "written evidence", iirc.
Make sense to anyone else?

It thought it was stated that they were given a "note"? And that, along with other "written evidence" led to the POI who led them to Elizabeth.

 

[Kamille]

ILC did say that the lawyer has been taking juvie cases pro bono...??

I believe I read that somewhere else as well. He has taken this on pro bono for the notoriety. It was also suggested that he will probably bow out once the hearing in November is over and the case starts to drag out and lose steam in the press. Wouldn't surprise me.

If the gp's are legal guardians and they have the income to pay for a lawyer, would they be required to pay for one or would she be eligible for legal aid if they refuse to pay for one?

 

[Kamille]

I missed where it was said that the AB family didn't know where the 6 yo was. The last I remember was that ILC said the AB family didn't even know Elizabeth was there. The only thing that I read in the news that contradicted that is the the GF sent her home. It was never said when he sent her home though. EO could have came to the door and asked if 6yo can play and GF told her no, not today and sent her on her way. I think everyone interpreted it that they were playing and GF sent her home because it was time or that they had an issue. With the time it would take to do what happened. I wonder if she didn't come to play with 6 yo was told she can't play, started home and that is when AB called her back for whatever reason.

I can think of many ways that she could have coaxed Elizabeth into the woods even if EO was scared of them. She could have said an animal/pet was hurt, stuck or lost. She could have been friendly with her and Elizabeth went to be with the *cool* teenager. AB could have grabbed a belonging from EO and ran into the woods. From what I have read it wasn't as deep in the woods as we were first believed. If in fact it was 400 yards from the AB house then you would still be able to see the houses and what EO thought was safe. Obviously not but from the point of view of a child scared of the woods seeing "civilization" wold be a comfort.

We don't know what kind of relationship EO had with AB. At 9 girls tend to idolize teen girls. Why do you think Miley Cyrus is so popular. They could have even been neighborhood buddies. I can easily picture summer evenings all the kids playing together. AB's brothers and little sis and EO and her brother then out of boredom or the need to feel in power AB would join them. I can remember things like this when I was a kid and around our neighborhood when my kids were younger.

I wonder if there was a struggle. If the cause of death is how I read then there had to have been. That act requires strength. It is not quick and I would say that the victim would be fighting and struggling making it even more difficult. From pics and description EO was not a tiny child and looked to be physically fit. AB on the other hand appears petite. That is a big reason why I believe the grave site and the scene of the crime is at the same place. If AB had to transport the body I would think there would have been many clues leading right to the grave site. Also if there had been a struggle there would have been clues as well as defensive injuries on AB which would have been a HUGE sign to LE.. AB had to have stunned EO somehow. I think EO also had to trust AB or EO's natural instinct would have had her on alert.

Very good post MDATCA!! I can see all of this happening. I especially think you may be on to something in the first paragraph. I was thinking along those lines too....that EO was never with the 6yr old at all but rather with AB the whole time.

 

[tlcya]

Ditto to Kamille's comments. You have a really workable theory, MDATCA. I only pray it is not so. I agree that the body location is probably one and the same as the murder scene. I agree that it is most likely that EO was lured, rather than dragged to that location. I only pray that you are not correct in the believe that EO was with AB the whole time she was absent from home. I find it so scary and disturbing to think that AB had all that time alone with EO to torture her either physically and/or emotionally prior to the final horrendous act of murder.

 

[Csquare]

I believe I read that somewhere else as well. He has taken this on pro bono for the notoriety. It was also suggested that he will probably bow out once the hearing in November is over and the case starts to drag out and lose steam in the press. Wouldn't surprise me.

If the gp's are legal guardians and they have the income to pay for a lawyer, would they be required to pay for one or would she be eligible for legal aid if they refuse to pay for one?

A friend of mine's daughter got caught shop lifting. She was over the age of 18 but still lived at home. She was told that due to living at home the parents made too much money for her to be given a public defender. Not sure if this case will be different.

 

[lillygator]

has it been confirmed about the suicide and the student's writing?

 

[Csquare]

has it been confirmed about the suicide and the student's writing?

I read that the teacher had a terminal illness and had taken a turn for the worse. Now if that is the case for what LE is saying, I am not sure.

 

[miss lisa]

I missed where it was said that the AB family didn't know where the 6 yo was. The last I remember was that ILC said the AB family didn't even know Elizabeth was there. The only thing that I read in the news that contradicted that is the the GF sent her home. It was never said when he sent her home though. EO could have came to the door and asked if 6yo can play and GF told her no, not today and sent her on her way. I think everyone interpreted it that they were playing and GF sent her home because it was time or that they had an issue. With the time it would take to do what happened. I wonder if she didn't come to play with 6 yo was told she can't play, started home and that is when AB called her back for whatever reason.

I can think of many ways that she could have coaxed Elizabeth into the woods even if EO was scared of them. She could have said an animal/pet was hurt, stuck or lost. She could have been friendly with her and Elizabeth went to be with the *cool* teenager. AB could have grabbed a belonging from EO and ran into the woods. From what I have read it wasn't as deep in the woods as we were first believed. If in fact it was 400 yards from the AB house then you would still be able to see the houses and what EO thought was safe. Obviously not but from the point of view of a child scared of the woods seeing "civilization" wold be a comfort.

We don't know what kind of relationship EO had with AB. At 9 girls tend to idolize teen girls. Why do you think Miley Cyrus is so popular. They could have even been neighborhood buddies. I can easily picture summer evenings all the kids playing together. AB's brothers and little sis and EO and her brother then out of boredom or the need to feel in power AB would join them. I can remember things like this when I was a kid and around our neighborhood when my kids were younger.

I wonder if there was a struggle. If the cause of death is how I read then there had to have been. That act requires strength. It is not quick and I would say that the victim would be fighting and struggling making it even more difficult. From pics and description EO was not a tiny child and looked to be physically fit. AB on the other hand appears petite. That is a big reason why I believe the grave site and the scene of the crime is at the same place. If AB had to transport the body I would think there would have been many clues leading right to the grave site. Also if there had been a struggle there would have been clues as well as defensive injuries on AB which would have been a HUGE sign to LE.. AB had to have stunned EO somehow. I think EO also had to trust AB or EO's natural instinct would have had her on alert.

Could someone point me to the cause of death?

 

[Padua]

My youngest step-daughter was diagnosed with RAD. Let me tell you what, she was very slick. She would steal food at home, not sure why all she had to do was ask, would eat her lunch before shcool and then tell her teachers we wouldn't feed her, stole from her sister, coins lipstick small stuff. It makes no sense. We had some good days and a whole lot of bad days.

I've worked with RAD kids and the food aspect is normal. At some time she may have went without food for awhile and it was just normal for her to hoard (sp?) her food. I told the foster parents if it became too much of a problem (ants or other insects) we'll deal with it, but if they feel safer hoarding their food let them do it if it made them feel safer. I think it is just the kids way of making sure their basic needs are met since they really didn't have that much of their lives.

 

[danni]

I missed where it was said that the AB family didn't know where the 6 yo was. The last I remember was that ILC said the AB family didn't even know Elizabeth was there.

She then stated that she thought Elizabeth showed up right after school, and they played outside for a period of time. I then asked what time Elizabeth got off the bus and Jodibug said her son got off the bus at (about) 4:00 and they live two miles down the road, so Elizabeth would be getting off the bus within 10 minutes or so.

ILC also stated that they did not know that Elizabeth was at their home. Well if the six year old was playing with Elizabeth for even an hour, and they didn't know Elizabeth was there, then OBVIOUSLY they had no clue where the six year old was during that period of time she was playing with Elizabeth.

 

[mycroft]

Could someone point me to the cause of death?

No because it's only rumors from locals on another forum. But if you look at the long topix thread about this, you will find it there, IIRC. The one I saw was someone claiming that they were told this info by a friend in LE. But if you think about the post you replied to for a minute you can probably guess what it was alleged to be, or at least part of it.

 

[Jules71]

That or someone's husband.

I wonder if we didn't get a visit yesterday from the "Aunt" who lives there, and this male could possibly be her bf or husband. I believe it is possible he was the one to give the letter to LE which led them to AB. If he knew something, or suspected something - it would kind of make sense for him to go to the O house with his cell phone video camera.

 

[tehcloser]

I wonder if we didn't get a visit yesterday from the "Aunt" who lives there, and this male could possibly be her bf or husband. I believe it is possible he was the one to give the letter to LE which led them to AB. If he knew something, or suspected something - it would kind of make sense for him to go to the O house with his cell phone video camera.

I don't know about being visited by the Aunt, but this guy going to the O house ready to film, it just IDK.....to me it seems like he knew more or suspected more at that point than he was letting on.

 

[Jules71]

So far I have come up with 8 persons living at/in the GP's house, I do think that one of the adults is the one that gave LE the heads up on who to talk to.

I agree, I think it was one of the adults who gave the letter to LE. I still do believe it is possible about the creative writing from the teacher too.

4 adults and 4 kids in the house:
g'ma
g'pa
aunt
unidentified male (from what ILC said yesterday)
AB
2 boy twins
6 yo girl

 

[mistivon]

no, this "creative writing" theory was mine based on something a local posted on another board. There is NOTHING corroborating this.
The whole thing about the note, imo, was bad semantics. I never understood if they were HANDED a note DURING the pc, ie from LE with new info....or if they had the note before...iirc, the wording is funny in how it was said.

 

[Jules71]

no, this "creative writing" theory was mine based on something a local posted on another board. There is NOTHING corroborating this.
The whole thing about the note, imo, was bad semantics. I never understood if they were HANDED a note DURING the pc, ie from LE with new info....or if they had the note before...iirc, the wording is funny in how it was said.

I still think your theory could be right.

It seemed to me LE was given a letter after the pc - and that letter, along with other written evidence led them to AB. So, if the body was found around 3 pm, did LE come to the school to get AB out of class to question her? Was the teacher who committed suicide there that day?

 

[Velouria]

I wonder if we didn't get a visit yesterday from the "Aunt" who lives there, and this male could possibly be her bf or husband.

I wondered about that too, Jules. But from what I read on Aunt K's old blog, it doesn't sound like she likes her niece much at all, and that poster sounded rather neutral on AB, IMO.

 

[Jules71]

I wondered about that too, Jules. But from what I read on Aunt K's old blog, it doesn't sound like she likes her niece much at all, and that poster sounded rather neutral on AB, IMO.

Right, Aunt K did not sound like she liked her. Could she be who gave LE a letter?

I am going to go look at those posts from yesterday...