MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #4

[kuromiiiilove]

Nobody uses these drugs recreationally. You've GOT to have addictive behaviors going on to be even desiring them, especially at their ages!

Speaking of which, when people develop addictions, they stay that age emotionally until they get clean.

All in my opinion as someone whose partner works in overdose prevention:

The idea that ‘nobody uses these drugs recreationally’ is one of the most common stigmas with substance use disorder. People absolutely go out and will seek fentanyl. I’m not saying that is what happened for sure, but it can’t be written off as a possibility. We really don’t know. I think given the celebration, it’s likely they thought they were using cocaine, but maybe they had all used together. I do know most fentanyl users would not introduce a person who has not used to the drug. We will find out through phone records in court whether the two charged were cognizant of the fact that they were buying fentanyl. MOO

 

[Cedars]

So, in reminding myself of details, I see the charges have been upgraded to murder...

Murder charges filed in deaths of 3 Kansas City Chiefs fans

According to an amended complaint obtained by USA TODAY, both defendants now face three counts of felony murder in the second-degree.

www.usatoday.com

Apparently, both men refused plea deals, so prosecutors have upgraded.

I think so too. They had cocaine and fentanyl in their systems and the combined toxicity was attributed to their deaths.

You are correct, I had missed that detail.

So, that may be the basis for the charges against Willis: he supplied pure cocaine.

The medical examiner specifically states it was cocaine combined with fentantyl that killed them.

Most media have taken care to distinguish that Carson didn't provide cocaine mixed with fentanyl, but just strait fentanyl.

However, I'd like to see the evidence to clarify that.

I am no fan of illegal drug use, but I really question the science here - that if they hadn't taken cocaine first, the fentanyl wouldn't have been fatal?

 

[kuromiiiilove]

So, in reminding myself of details, I see the charges have been upgraded to murder...

Murder charges filed in deaths of 3 Kansas City Chiefs fans

According to an amended complaint obtained by USA TODAY, both defendants now face three counts of felony murder in the second-degree.

www.usatoday.com

Apparently, both men refused plea deals, so prosecutors have upgraded.


You are correct, I had missed that detail.

So, that may be the basis for the charges against Willis: he supplied pure cocaine.

The medical examiner specifically states it was cocaine combined with fentantyl that killed them.

Most media have taken care to distinguish that Carson didn't provide cocaine mixed with fentanyl, but just strait fentanyl.

However, I'd like to see the evidence to clarify that.

I am no fan of illegal drug use, but I really question the science here - that if they hadn't taken cocaine first, the fentanyl wouldn't have been fatal?

That’s what I was thinking too re: evidence that Carson’s bag was solely fentanyl. It’s possible, but I somewhat doubt it.

ETA: Say they tested both bags for fentanyl first. Willis’ tested negative for fentanyl, so they tested it for another popular white power, cocaine. But that doesn’t mean they tested Carson’s for cocaine… that we know of at least.

Also, I find the science shaky too re: taking cocaine first caused the overdose. The fentanyl is likely what killed them - respiratory depression. I’ll do more research on that. But statistically, opiates are far more deadly than stimulants. IMO the fentanyl alone would have killed them, regardless of the cocaine.

Drug Overdose Deaths: Facts and Figures | National Institute on Drug Abuse

See facts and figures on overdose deaths as reported by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

nida.nih.gov

 

[Leilei]

That’s what I was thinking too re: evidence that Carson’s bag was solely fentanyl. It’s possible, but I somewhat doubt it.

Also, I find the science shaky too re: taking cocaine first caused the overdose. The fentanyl is likely what killed them - respiratory depression. I’ll do more research on that. But statistically, opiates are far more deadly than stimulants. IMO the fentanyl alone would have killed them, regardless of the cocaine.

Drug Overdose Deaths: Facts and Figures | National Institute on Drug Abuse

See facts and figures on overdose deaths as reported by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

nida.nih.gov

I agree about the fent causing their deaths. It also explains why JW was so out of commission the whole time, to me at least. If Carlson delivered two baggies to them, each containing a crazy different drug, and the four men started with the baggie of fent, not knowing what it was, they may not have been in any condition to realize what was happening to them. JW may have just stumbled up to sleep it off, while the other three went outside for whatever reason.
How much of the cocaine was used?
I'm looking at Carlson for this. He either didn't know what was in the second baggie, or he did it intentionally.
IMO.

 

[airportwoman]

All in my opinion as someone whose partner works in overdose prevention:

The idea that ‘nobody uses these drugs recreationally’ is one of the most common stigmas with substance use disorder. People absolutely go out and will seek fentanyl. I’m not saying that is what happened for sure, but it can’t be written off as a possibility. We really don’t know. I think given the celebration, it’s likely they thought they were using cocaine, but maybe they had all used together. I do know most fentanyl users would not introduce a person who has not used to the drug. We will find out through phone records in court whether the two charged were cognizant of the fact that they were buying fentanyl. MOO

What I meant by that is that nobody uses drugs like fentanyl or cocaine unless they've been doing other drugs too, or it's somehow been slipped to them. They are NOT first-line drugs of abuse.

 

[GXP Sleuther]

If they ingested what they assumed was Cocaine, and it was mostly fentanyl that would be an almost instant death. JMHO

 

[MamaSleuth5]

A little research shows that not to be exactly true, though. There are various reasons why fent is so widespread - easily available compared to H, cheaper, not as much needed to get high, and oftentimes, the user isn't even aware that there is fent in their fix.
IMO and personal experience - I lost my sister-in-law to a fent OD in March. Her boyfriend gave her the shot. We're hoping that he's charged in her death.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955395923001111

IMO.

@Leilei , I'm sorry for your loss. IMO there are so many emotions that surround these issues, but sadness is the overwhelming one for me.

 

[Leilei]

@Leilei , I'm sorry for your loss. IMO there are so many emotions that surround these issues, but sadness is the overwhelming one for me.

Thank you, Mama. One of the hardest things about her sad journey is that she was special needs. Her boyfriend took advantage of this in all sorts of ways. She didn't know how to give herself a shot, much less ask what was in it.

 

[IceIce9]

Thank you, Mama. One of the hardest things about her sad journey is that she was special needs. Her boyfriend took advantage of this in all sorts of ways. She didn't know how to give herself a shot, much less ask what was in it.

After one of the recent CPR/First Aid classes I was conducting, a young girl, maybe 19 or 20 years old, came up to me privately. After all the other participants left the room she asked if she could have some Narcan. She told me that her boyfriend was addicted to heroin and she would like to have Narcan in case he overdosed.

It made me very sad because most people who begin using drugs do so because of their acquaintances, especially boyfriend or girlfriend.

I did give her some Narcan and showed her where she could obtain it free of charge. But I know the chances that she will become a user herself are high.

This wasn’t the first time a participant has asked for narcan but this time it made me especially sad.

 

[Curious Me]

This case of the three young men losing their lives will forever stick in my mind. It's a cautionary tale that happens to be a real life true tragic event. Cautionary, now if only it could save lives. ​

Baltimore mass overdose event sends more than dozen to hospital with 5 victims critical

MSN

25 people taken to the hospital after mass overdose in Baltimore

It wasn't immediately clear what substance they took or what their conditions were.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Charlot123]

What I meant by that is that nobody uses drugs like fentanyl or cocaine unless they've been doing other drugs too, or it's somehow been slipped to them. They are NOT first-line drugs of abuse.

They are not gateway drugs, you mean.

 

[Charlot123]

If they ingested what they assumed was Cocaine, and it was mostly fentanyl that would be an almost instant death. JMHO

Even if it was mostly cocaine but cut with fentanyl and they were not habitual users of fentanyl, then even a small amount could cause instant death.

 

[IceIce9]

This case of the three young men losing their lives will forever stick in my mind. It's a cautionary tale that happens to be a real life true tragic event. Cautionary, now if only it could save lives. ​

Baltimore mass overdose event sends more than dozen to hospital with 5 victims critical

MSN

25 people taken to the hospital after mass overdose in Baltimore

It wasn't immediately clear what substance they took or what their conditions were.

www.nbcnews.com

Interestingly, I recently participated in a OSHA event in Baltimore. When I presented Opioid Education/Narcan there was zero interest. Several people told me that there was no opioid problem in Baltimore.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Interestingly, I recently participated in a OSHA event in Baltimore. When I presented Opioid Education/Narcan there was zero interest. Several people told me that there was no opioid problem in Baltimore.

My hubby works in overdose prevention. It is shocking how hard it is to get our city on board. Things are changing now, but for years, they had no interested in establishing naloxone programs, having police carry narcan, informing police and/or public on what an OD looks like, etc.

It’s gotten a lot better, but it’s been a long and uphill battle. A lot of people think ‘out of sight, out of mind’ - if they don’t see drug use, they think it’s not happening.

It’s extremely sad that these men died. Something that could have helped, if they did not intend to take fentanyl, would be test strips that alert to the prescence of fentanyl. I’m not a big fan of Gov. DeSantis, but he has legalized those testing strips, which were previously considered drug paraphernalia. They’re legal in MS as well as of 2023, but I don’t know how many people know they’re available.

 

[IceIce9]

My hubby works in overdose prevention. It is shocking how hard it is to get our city on board. Things are changing now, but for years, they had no interested in establishing naloxone programs, having police carry narcan, informing police and/or public on what an OD looks like, etc.

It’s gotten a lot better, but it’s been a long and uphill battle. A lot of people think ‘out of sight, out of mind’ - if they don’t see drug use, they think it’s not happening.

It’s extremely sad that these men died. Something that could have helped, if they did not intend to take fentanyl, would be test strips that alert to the prescence of fentanyl. I’m not a big fan of Gov. DeSantis, but he has legalized those testing strips, which were previously considered drug paraphernalia. They’re legal in MS as well as of 2023, but I don’t know how many people know they’re available.

The states where I most frequently teach are Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, West Virginia, and Ohio. Narcan is free and widely available in all of these states. Narcan test strips are available too free of charge.

Unfortunately some people are not in favor of Narcan being made available because they think it encourages drug use

 

[Mert]

MSN

“Two men appeared in court Thursday to face murder charges for the first time after three Kansas City Chiefs fans were found dead in the backyard of their friend's home in January 2024, as the defense cast doubt on the prosecution's case.”

“Kansas City police detective Mark Divak testified that two of the bodies were found in the home's fenced-in backyard, and one was found seated on the patio.”