MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #13

[reedus23]

I'm sure that the evidence, when it is made public, will show that some of the eyewitness accounts are "off" in some way or another. And then the debate will begin in what the evidence shows.

If it goes to trial, officer Wilson's defense will use it to show that their client is not guilty and the State will use it to show that he's guilty. That's what makes crimminal trials so interesting and at the same time frustrating for me to follow.

So true Ranch. We're not likely to have an "Aha" moment where everything all of a sudden becomes crystal clear. Each side will continue to attack the other and at the end of the day it will probably still be a muddy mess. Which, by the way, if it's not cleared up, means that DW (if indicted) should be acquitted. The prosecution won't get past their burden without it clearing up.

 

[Apollo]

I disagree. We have Dorian Johnson and Ferguson Police accounts, as well as witness accounts from the community. We don't actually have OW or MB accounts because, as you say, one has not spoken publicly and one cannot ever speak publicly again.

That's why I have the word version in quotes.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Does MB even _have_ a version? I mean, we'll never even GET his version of events, given the circumstances. Unfortunately.

I would think that ME Mary Case, State crime lab, witnesses and crime scene will speak for MB as well as for OW.

 

[al66pine]

Originally Posted by bwt42 We were giving our opinions on what witness was most credible. Any thoughts?

Not a chance in heck at this point. I mean, what are we going to say if it turns out he too has charges for giving the cops the wrong name and DOB in the past? .... After we start getting more of the physical evidence in,.....

SBM

reedus
You & I may differ about other aspects of the death, but I agree w you about judging witness credibility.

I'm not giving anyone a final grade on credibility, not yet, pretty much like you said --
- how do the stmts of ea line up w physical evd?
- what biases, if any, does ea have? May not come out until cross-exam at trial, if there is one.
-what history/reputation for honesty (or lying)does ea have? Ditto, may not come out soon
(ex of early exception: DJ & lying to LE re his own identity. Pretty basic sign of dishonesty)

JM2cts.

 

[jmcgladr]

I would think that ME Mary Case, State crime lab, witnesses and crime scene will speak for MB as well as for OW.

Yes, they will, but that still won't be his actual version of events. And I was talking about the present time, not about the trial that hasn't happened yet.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Yes, they will, but that still won't be his actual version of events. And I was talking about the present time, not about the trial that hasn't happened yet.

No, there won't be a seance. :laughing:

 

[reedus23]

Originally Posted by bwt42 We were giving our opinions on what witness was most credible. Any thoughts?

SBM

reedus
You & I may differ about other aspects of the death, but I agree w you about judging witness credibility.

I'm not giving anyone a final grade on credibility, not yet, pretty much like you said --
- how do the stmts of ea line up w physical evd?
- what biases, if any, does ea have? May not come out until cross-exam at trial, if there is one.
-what history/reputation for honesty (or lying)does ea have? Ditto, may not come out soon
(ex of early exception: DJ & lying to LE re his own identity. Pretty basic sign of dishonesty)

JM2cts.

To be honest, I probably differ with myself depending on what part of the day you catch me. :lol: I also wish I wouldn't have partaken in it at all. For all I know, it will turn out Mitchell is a relative of Brown. Then a witness that I at one time thought would be tough for the police officer no longer is as tough. I do think that DJ's charges and lying to LE affect his credibility. But I think such things would affect everyone else the same way too. We just don't know yet.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I just heard Dr. Baden state on Fox that Browns arms could have been backwards....

Facepalm...


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[al66pine]

How can someone (this "Black Conseco") be considered a witness if he was simply overheard speaking and we don't even know who he was speaking to, and we didn't hear anyone ask him to give his account, and we don't know if he even really witnessed the incident? I can't for the life of me understand how someone who was overheard in the background of someone else's tape can possibly be a MORE credible witness to someone who came forward and openly told the media who they were and what they had seen. We have no background on this guy, at all.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Exactly.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

See my post just above.
But if, if, if you are saying someone 'presenting' self to MSM is more credible, on that basis alone, I'll respectfully disagree.

Just speaking as someone who was born before Andy Warhol said
"In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes."

JM2cts.

 

[Muffet]

Because, it sure seems, his version backs up with what we believe Officer Wilson's to be.

We know there is no collusion between Wilson and that witness. Independently their stories match. Zero motive to fabricate at that point.
His seems to be the purest & most untainted. IMO


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BBM

Yes.

The bolded part is the pivotal point. It's not about what we "want" to hear. It's the fact that they were so unlikely, considering all the buzz around him. And he's the only one who actually sounded shaken.

Anyway. This reason is clear enough that it should be pretty obvious, imo, so I won't belabor explaining why spinning it into a mere "want" is troublesome.



And 2. While I can't speak for anyone else, another way it's being... Misunderstood... Is in the assumption that hearing his words only gave us evidence to support a predetermined conviction.

Because for me, his words pushed me toward OW's side.
I didn't pull his words into a belief I already had a such as his words pushed me that way.

 

[reedus23]

BBM

Yes.

The bolded part is the pivotal point. It's not about what we "want" to hear. It's the fact that they were so unlikely, considering all the buzz around him. And he's the only one who actually sounded shaken.

Anyway. This reason is clear enough that it should be pretty obvious, imo, so I won't belabor explaining why spinning it into a mere "want" is troublesome.



And 2. While I can't speak for anyone else, another way it's being... Misunderstood... Is in the assumption that hearing his words only gave us evidence to support a predetermined conviction.

Because for me, his words pushed me toward OW's side.
I didn't pull his words into a belief I already had a such as his words pushed me that way.

Maybe I am just misreading the sentence just above the portion you bolded. As for what you say, no arguments from me there.

 

[K_Z]

I think it's far from certain that there will even be an indictment, charges, and a trial.

At this point, we all have to acknowledge that there is a LOT of evidence and information that we do not have, but that the prosecutor and investigators DO have, and soon (if not already) the GJ will have it. Autopsy #1, for example, along with advanced toxicology. Ballistics. Toxicology for OW, radiographic evidence of OW's injuries, along with medical records. The radio calls, which will almost certainly reflect OW's calls for backup, and paramedics. The patrol SUV itself. OW's testimony. Statements of responding officers and paramedics. And a bunch of other things that have been withheld from release. We already know that a significant chunk of what we don't have yet relates to OW. And, IMO, from what we DO know, the chunk of evidence that relates to OW is much more supportive of his actions, than critical. IMO.

I really doubt that 9 of the 12 grand jurors will vote to indict OW, on any charges. I seriously doubt it, in fact. I don't think we will have a trial of OW at all.

And if/ when that happens, there will be more riots and violence, IMO. And if THAT happens, I just hope that LE and the Governor learn from their mistakes, and handle it properly the next time, because IMO, command and control was beyond bungled the first time around. It should be no great surprise if there is no indictment, and riots form again. They should be ready for it next time, and if it doesn't happen, they can send everyone home and go on with life. But IMO, they failed outright, and miserably in the days following MB's death.

Added thought:

I know this is difficult to think about, but OW, as the only one alive and facing potential charges, is the ONLY one that has the right to be presumed INNOCENT until charged with something and proven guilty. MB is not on trial, and cannot be charged with anything, since he is deceased. But he also does not have any rights at this point, and certainly does not have any legal right to be presumed innocent of anything related to his conduct and interactions with OW. He WAS a suspect, as it relates to the relationship between MB and OW-- and a violent suspect if it can be proven he physically assaulted OW first (which I think is pretty certain). OW is not a civilian-- he is a LEO. If any charges at the state level are filed, it has to be shown that OW used excessive force, or conducted an "illegal shoot." If there ever is a trial, MB's entire life will be put on display, IMO-- and that is probably not going to help convict OW of anything. IMO.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

bbm

I disagree with this statement because of the fact that we don't know that the struggle was for MB to get the gun. The struggle may have been for MB to get the gun away from OW (if OW was prior to that pointing the gun at him). The struggle may have been a physical fight just because the one or both of them were irritated, then the gun came out for OW to defend himself from the physical altercation.

It could have been any of the above or I'm sure there are countless other scenarios.

We do not know that MB was reaching for his gun or trying to get his gun.

And we might not ever know.

Does it even really matter if MB was trying to take the officer's gun. An assault alone is a felony. The officer had every right to defend himself. jmo

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I just heard Dr. Baden state on Fox that Browns arms could have been backwards....

Facepalm...


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I wonder how much of the autopsy he really did and how much his 'assistant' did. It couldn't have been very thorough, Mary Case had all of the evidence and that was turned over to the Prosecutor. Which will be kept under wraps until they are ready to release it.

 

[CHERIE.T]

It has zero to do with what anyone wants to believe. It is the most logical conclusion that one should come to with the facts, evidence and actual laws of this case.
(With what is known so far)

^^^^^that.

 

[gramcracker]

wasn't ready to type when Fuhrman was on. I wonder what he "knows." the blue brotherhood is relatively small

Judge Alex, with Megyn asking is it good or bad for ODW if the DA (with his background) remains. JA: DA would have to bend over backwards to demonstrate lack of bias, which would not benefit defendant. but that's not how the system works. everyone who works in system has something in their background which correlates to one proceeding or another and they are accustomed to putting bias aside

Baden: can't tell if hands were up/down, whether arm wounds are from front or back. head wounds yes, from front. Megyn: falling over? yes. autopsy results not slam dunk for either side? yes. is THC level relevant? irrelevant, unless combined with other results (PCP, Xstasy, amphetamine)

Mark Eiglarsh: was force reasonable? too much is unknown. ODW deserves due process. when can LEO shoot someone running away? atty Andell Brown: reasonable suspicion of causing death/bodily harm to others. ME: wrong. LEO actually has obligation to stop/shoot if alleged ODW version is accurate, even if running away. AB: physical altercation not enough. ME: wrong. it comes down to reasonableness

DOJ's role. appropriate for Eric Holder to make statements he has? J Christian Adams, former DOJ atty: no. created an allegiance (alliance ?) by putting more pressure on FPD and GJ. federal civil rights statutes exist and work well, without taking sides. bigger fish to fry, Boston bombing, terrorism? yes. putting his thumb on the scales of justice

Mike Tobin spoke to owner of Red's BBQ: this has instilled sense of fear in everyone, not just business owners. has set up bare bones operation to stay in public's mind and to help out his employees. great community, and we will be back!

Megyn: federal bailout? (from somewhere): if they can bail out the banks, they can bail out F'son. what do you think?

It's an orange cone.

IA. I think it is too perfect, symmetrical, to be blood (or any liquid)

 

[CoolJ]

I just heard Dr. Baden state on Fox that Browns arms could have been backwards....

Facepalm...


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This is what I have been trying to get across all along. Finally.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So true Ranch. We're not likely to have an "Aha" moment where everything all of a sudden becomes crystal clear. Each side will continue to attack the other and at the end of the day it will probably still be a muddy mess. Which, by the way, if it's not cleared up, means that DW (if indicted) should be acquitted. The prosecution won't get past their burden without it clearing up.

For me, if it's shown that officer Wilson suffered significant facial injuries, I'll be nearly 100% convinced that this was a justifiable police shooting. It won't take much more evidence to get me to 100%. JMO.

 

[reedus23]

I think it's far from certain that there will even be an indictment, charges, and a trial.

At this point, we all have to acknowledge that there is a LOT of evidence and information that we do not have, but that the prosecutor and investigators DO have, and soon (if not already) the GJ will have it. Autopsy #1, for example, along with advanced toxicology. Ballistics. Toxicology for OW, radiographic evidence of OW's injuries, along with medical records. The radio calls, which will almost certainly reflect OW's calls for backup, and paramedics. The patrol SUV itself. OW's testimony. Statements of responding officers and paramedics. And a bunch of other things that have been withheld from release. We already know that a significant chunk of what we don't have yet relates to OW. And, IMO, from what we DO know, the chunk of evidence that relates to OW is much more supportive of his actions, than critical. IMO.

I really doubt that 9 of the 12 grand jurors will vote to indict OW, on any charges. I seriously doubt it, in fact. I don't think we will have a trial of OW at all.

And if/ when that happens, there will be more riots and violence, IMO. And if THAT happens, I just hope that LE and the Governor learn from their mistakes, and handle it properly the next time, because IMO, command and control was beyond bungled the first time around. It should be no great surprise if there is no indictment, and riots form again. They should be ready for it next time, and if it doesn't happen, they can send everyone home and go on with life. But IMO, they failed outright, and miserably in the days following MB's death.

If that is how it plays out, I hope there is only some shouting and hollering. The looting and rioting is inexcusable and I'm hoping some of the local leaders have regained some form of influence over the local people and taken that control out of the hands of the outsiders.

 

[Muffet]

I just heard Dr. Baden state on Fox that Browns arms could have been backwards....

Facepalm...


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I can't stay up and post anymore tonight, but this surprises me. Not because of the way it appears so obviously a stretch, but...

I don't think going there helps his clients' case, in light of the audio.

I won't spell it out. I think Parks might get it. Maybe not. Either way, I don't think either side is helped or hurt. People who are open to facts will look elsewhere for proof. The rest, no facts will matter, no matter how objective they want to say they are.
So I'm not feeling optimistic about the whole closure thing. I pray for those who live there.

Goodnight everyone