MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #17

[sonjay]

Thought this was such a good statement by Bruntrager it was worth bumping. No rush to judgment!!!!!! Witness accounts are important!!!!! Evaluate all the evidence!!!!!! Don't disregard the statements!!!!!! Judge their credibility with all of the evidence!!!!!

Very sound response by Bruntrager.

That's essentially what I tried to do in my post about the CWs' accounts a few posts up. I'm attempting to judge their credibility in light of the other witnesses and what physical evidence we're aware of.

In particular, I'm focusing on those final few seconds when OW fired the fatal shots at MB. It's pretty clear from the witnesses that MB was moving toward OW at the time. Given how quickly it all unfolded, it's likely that from the time he started moving toward OW until the time he fell down dead, was mere seconds, and the "moving" followed immediately by the "falling" could easily appear to a witness to look like "stumbling."

In my own mind, I'm satisfied that MB was moving toward OW, and that means he wasn't "surrendering." Surrendering would be stop, put your hands up, and don't move. Especially don't move toward the police officer.

Since MB was not surrendering, and he was moving toward OW, that means, particularly in light of the assault at the car, that OW had plenty of good reason to be in fear for his life, and plenty of good reason to shoot.

I would so love to be a fly on the wall in the GJ room, and get to see and hear everything they're seeing and hearing. As it is, I'm forming my opinion based on what evidence is currently available to me. I'm open to changing that opinion if better evidence emerges that tells a different story, but I doubt that's going to happen.

 

[sonjay]

There are maps of the scene on a blog that we cannot link to that shows the evidence cones on the scene. These cones are BEHIND MBs body which will probably end up showing that DW was backing up while shooting.

Yes, I've seen those maps. They were what finally gave me a good picture in my mind of where everyone was at the time, the distances involved, and so forth. It was all kind of a jumble to me before seeing those maps.

And yes, I've noted the cones farther away, behind MB's body. As far as I know, we don't yet know what those cones are marking. Could be cigarillos, could be blood drops, could be something else. But there's something out there (several somethings, actually), past MB's body, that they marked with evidence cones.

 

[reedus23]

Ya...but surely there were many more that didn't go, that aren't ignorant hateful and violent ? Right? People that don't drag their babies out and into the chaos?




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Considering that Ferguson has 20,000+ residents and how many were there? Hundreds? Even if we said thousands and that they were all Ferguson residents and didn't come from Jennings or Florissant or anywhere else that is still like 5%. Now if we want to narrow that down even more to those that threw stuff, and while I don't think 32 people threw stuff, I'll use that number because apparently that's how many were arrested, that is .16%. But yet there are calls for no LE in the entirety of Ferguson.

 

[SStarr33]

Anthony Fatiha Shahid

http://www.stlmugshots.com/show.php?id=076613699&name=anthony-shahid

 

[reedus23]

OK-so I take one business trip today and come back to all of this??? YIKES!! That's it people. Keep making Ferguson proud. SMH.

And you have to love the way it's reported...it was mostly peaceful...except for some who were throwing bricks and bottles....and the police shouldn't have had riot gear on because that makes them aggressive....:shame:

How many people were out there? How many threw chit? I suspect more did not throw stuff than those that did. I also think that with LE videotaping everything, they will find those that threw stuff and will arrest them even if they escaped arrest yesterday.

 

[SStarr33]

Actually, there is a photo that shows brass at one of the cones. If you know the site, you can look for it.

 

[CuriousGuy]

You don't know when they came forward. Neither do I. Could have been immediately. Could have been just now. You smell a rat because it doesn't fit the story you want to believe.

"You smell a rat because it doesn't fit the story you want to believe." This could be said for a few here

 

[Frydaddy]

You don't know when they came forward. Neither do I. Could have been immediately. Could have been just now. You smell a rat because it doesn't fit the story you want to believe.

I smell a rat and it has nothing to do with any story. It's a simple formula...RCP, PLP newspaper, landscaper statement, Travis Morales participation in Ferguson mayhem. Cannot connect the dots due to TOS, you'll have to do your own homework.

 

[bettybaby00]

Anthony Fatiha Shahid

http://www.stlmugshots.com/show.php?id=076613699&name=anthony-shahid

Oh he was one of the ones arrested on assault on an officer.

 

[Minette]

Meh. Extortion is her word. You can characterize my thoughts on the issue however you choose. She can use whatever word she wants to describe making demands of government. Really don't care. I just choose to want to live in a society where we can ask for change from our government with the hope that the people's voices will be heard. What I conceded and continue to concede is that the way in which those demands are related must be done in a way that is most likely to get results. Throwing bricks and bottles won't achieve that. Disrupting a government council meeting...I have no problem with that whatsoever if it is followed up with much more rationale discourse.

What I react to are the 'demands' couched like "give us Darren Wilson or Ferguson will burn!" which begs the question that no one ever seems to ask, which is "And exactly what would you do to him if you got him?" And then there was was the especially tone deaf "if Wilson isn't arrested we'll burn down city hall!" I don't see how that can be characterized as anything other than extortion. I won't go so far as to say 'domestic terrorism' as some have, but you know what, maybe I'll change my mind if they start up with that stuff today of all days.

 

[reedus23]

Missouri statue concerning assault on a law enforcement officer. It's a felony.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5650000082.htm

Also from a criminal defense site, specifying that if you TRY to cause serious physical injury to a police officer (say, by grabbing for his weapon) this is a felony regardless of the level of physical injury actually sustained:

(BBM)

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/missouri-aggravated-assault-laws

And this, kids, is why you don't get physical with a cop and then expect to go skipping back to Grandma's house even if you didn't actually fracture their eye socket.

I agree. Of course that has nothing to do with whether or not a shooting was justified, but I do agree. People are arrested everyday for assaulting an officer and aren't shot dead. Whether or not shooting MB was justified is a whole different question that isn't answered yet.

 

[sonjay]

That's the stuff we are trying to sleuth

I hope someone is successful at sleuthing out that information. I'm usually pretty good at searching, but I've been unable to find out anything about the genesis of those photos of the note.

 

[Klood-N]

Today is 9/11, a day when evil attacked our country, borne of hate. To me, it has great spiritual significance. I think the book The Harbinger analyzes that well, and might interest those who enjoy sleuthing connections and data. Anyway, waking contemplatively as the sun rose also left me thinking about Michael. As a Christian, it touches my heart to know he'd accepted The Lord shortly before he died. I know where he is, that there's peace and joy there, and that he no longer struggles with where he fits. I don't know if anyone told him, but there can be great spiritual struggle around the time of that big spiritual step. To me, the sense of that around this case echoes a larger feeling of escalating division and chaos. I recognize as others do that his visions could have been from substances or mental wellbeing, but I can also see the possibility that they were genuinely spiritual events. I can see how some could see the stories that he was discussing Jesus with the construction worker as more of the false narrative, but to me it's entirely possible for him to have done that and then chosen to strong arm and assault afterwards. "Bad vibes". I hear him. His choices were still his, and I wish he'd made far different ones. He caused his death and harmed others. It was a waste. A man trying to do a thankless, difficult job is isolated, injured, and threatened. And now the town is under siege with burning buildings and hate and those seeking to harness hate for their own uses. Which brings me back to 9/11. I hope, today of all days, those with seething rage and those seeking to exploit it are constrained, and maybe some will pause and question their own choices, choosing a better path. That should be what comes from Michael's death.

These are my thoughts today.

 

[DebinGA]

MB was an avid gamer, imo because he didn't like to talk as his voice was noticeably childish according to DJ. I wish we knew which games MB played most since virtual reality certainly didn't comport with actual reality his last day. In MB's games getting away from cops on foot was easy and feigning surrender, then approaching cops in order to knock them out or take their weapon earned the player points, not death.

 

[nothingnew]

Perhaps so, but they are a very, very small minority of the population of Ferguson. You'd be willing to sacrifice the safety of all of the innocent, law-abiding majority because of a handful of people who break the law? Something seems very wrong about that to me. Aren't police paid to protect the innocent from those who break the law?

I'm not sure the majority of ferguson IS law abiding. Aren't there more warrants then residents there?

 

[reedus23]

No, our government has never been "set up" to address extortion threats and never will. You might want to review the Patriot Act. GMAB.

My point is you use the term extortion loosely. Your right to do so. My right to say I disagree with that use of the word. I find it is used for dramatic effect to try to make a point. If all the rhetoric were stripped away, I'd bet we both actually agree on the underlying issue, namely that the manner in which their "demands" were presented is not a fashion that is likely to get results.

 

[Klood-N]

Anthony Fatiha Shahid

http://www.stlmugshots.com/show.php?id=076613699&name=anthony-shahid

Whoa! Charges ASSLT 2ND OF OFFICER

 

[Minette]

I agree. Of course that has nothing to do with whether or not a shooting was justified, but I do agree. People are arrested everyday for assaulting an officer and aren't shot dead. Whether or not shooting MB was justified is a whole different question that isn't answered yet.

I've come down on the side of justified given the struggle at the car and the alleged attempt to go for the officer's gun but I agree that it is legitimate to reserve judgement at this point. The statutes I posted all go to the fact that Michael *had* committed a felony of assaulting an officer that day so it can reasonably be concluded that OW saw him as a threat to himself and to the public.

 

[reedus23]

I wouldn't move just because of this incident unless you are in Ferguson. I just don't see leaders caving to these ridiculous demands.

This I agree with 100%. They obviously aren't going to just arrest someone because people demand it. They aren't going to try someone just because people demand it. They aren't going to remove people from office just because people demand it. All those things will go through their appropriate processes.

 

[BirdycatNY]

MB in blow-up/frowny face mode: http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/michael-brown-4.jpg

*note position of arms

That's why MB's position in your pic makes more sense that his arms were down during MB/OW incident. It's easier for me (going from available autopsy diagram) to find OW started to shoot MB from mid-arm going up to head/chest area like a diagonal. As opposed to if MB had hands up or out that OW would start shooting him from high point at arm then shoot down arm and then back up to head more like a "V" pattern. MB would also probably flinch after the first shot to arm. I imagine the bullet patterns will debunk any theories that MB had his hands up if the angles of bullet patterns indicate otherwise. I don't know anything about guns, bullet patterns and gun forensics, but seems like those things could put some theories to rest. all imo